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Home » RSD » RSD Posts » Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement
Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #63] Mon, 22 September 2008 09:30 Go to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Sep 19, 12:28 pm, Baer <collin.b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> (This is my analysis of Todd Leber’s candidate statement. Please note
> that my own personal opinions and biases are reflected in these
> analyses. I’d like to see others’ thoughts as well. Additionally, the
> UPA will reportedly be posting the audio interviews soon.)
>
> http://www.upa.org/bod/candidate/2009
>
> Regular RSD readers will also be familiar with Toad’s position on many
> topics. Many readers may also know that I agree with many of Toad’s
> ideas, but not always with the way he presents himself. His candidate
> statement is not much different. It is short and doesn’t provide too
> much detail, but I’m sure anyone can read through his “endless rants
> on RSD,” as he puts it, to get more information.
>
> I do find it refreshing that Toad makes no bones about wanting change
> and innovation in Ultimate, as he is sincere about wanting to make
> Ultimate a better sport, and many candidates (especially in years
> past) do not make grand statements about change.
>
> In his statement, Toad puts a priority on establishing an elite
> competitive series and showcasing it in a “modernized fashion.” He
> also promotes achieving varsity status for college and high school
> teams for the sake of recognition and legitimacy. He only mentions
> referees once (as “a given”), but you can be sure that those ideas
> will be included in any proposals. I agree with these ideas, as I
> think putting a more sophisticated game on the field will enable
> Ultimate to make huge strides in the sports world in terms of respect
> and legitimacy, without hurting the game.
>
> Toad also wants to “intensify” efforts to learn the needs and wants of
> the UPA membership. Low voting numbers and low survey returns clearly
> indicate that not all members’ voices are heard, and I support efforts
> to get in touch with more of the membership.
>
> Finally, Toad believes he could “initiate urgency and action within
> the administration.” Being that his posts on RSD outnumber everyone
> else’s, and he draws a lot of responses, I think that, whether the
> other Board members agreed with him or not, he definitely would be
> able to stimulate some active and interesting dialogue.
>
> Toad has my vote because of his ideas, and he has already given much
> to the sport in years (decades) past outside of the UPA. I only hope
> that Toad understands that his ideas are uphill battles, and he could
> still serve a valuable role getting his ideas under consideration with
> the Board, even if they aren’t adopted right away. My other hope is
> that he plays nicely with others and presents himself well if elected
> (it’s still politics, after all).

Baer,
Thanks again for your helpful efforts in summarizing the candidate
statements. It's a bit of a shame that the few delusional guys who
have nothing better to do than surf RSD clutter up things. You can
tell a delusional person... it's someone who thinks everyone else is
delusional.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #67 is a reply to message #63] Mon, 22 September 2008 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Sep 22, 12:30 pm, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
>
> Baer,
> Thanks again for your helpful efforts in summarizing the candidate
> statements. It's a bit of a shame that the few delusional guys who
> have nothing better to do than surf RSD clutter up things. You can
> tell a delusional person... it's someone who thinks everyone else is
> delusional.

WHICH, IN THIS CASE(and soooooo many others) IS YOU!!!!!
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #70 is a reply to message #63] Mon, 22 September 2008 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Sep 22, 9:30 am, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
> On Sep 19, 12:28 pm, Baer <collin.b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > (This is my analysis of Todd Leber’s candidate statement. Please note
> > that my own personal opinions and biases are reflected in these
> > analyses. I’d like to see others’ thoughts as well. Additionally, the
> > UPA will reportedly be posting the audio interviews soon.)
>
> >http://www.upa.org/bod/candidate/2009
>
> > Regular RSD readers will also be familiar with Toad’s position on many
> > topics. Many readers may also know that I agree with many of Toad’s
> > ideas, but not always with the way he presents himself. His candidate
> > statement is not much different. It is short and doesn’t provide too
> > much detail, but I’m sure anyone can read through his “endless rants
> > on RSD,” as he puts it, to get more information.
>
> > I do find it refreshing that Toad makes no bones about wanting change
> > and innovation in Ultimate, as he is sincere about wanting to make
> > Ultimate a better sport, and many candidates (especially in years
> > past) do not make grand statements about change.
>
> > In his statement, Toad puts a priority on establishing an elite
> > competitive series and showcasing it in a “modernized fashion.” He
> > also promotes achieving varsity status for college and high school
> > teams for the sake of recognition and legitimacy. He only mentions
> > referees once (as “a given”), but you can be sure that those ideas
> > will be included in any proposals. I agree with these ideas, as I
> > think putting a more sophisticated game on the field will enable
> > Ultimate to make huge strides in the sports world in terms of respect
> > and legitimacy, without hurting the game.
>
> > Toad also wants to “intensify” efforts to learn the needs and wants of
> > the UPA membership. Low voting numbers and low survey returns clearly
> > indicate that not all members’ voices are heard, and I support efforts
> > to get in touch with more of the membership.
>
> > Finally, Toad believes he could “initiate urgency and action within
> > the administration.” Being that his posts on RSD outnumber everyone
> > else’s, and he draws a lot of responses, I think that, whether the
> > other Board members agreed with him or not, he definitely would be
> > able to stimulate some active and interesting dialogue.
>
> > Toad has my vote because of his ideas, and he has already given much
> > to the sport in years (decades) past outside of the UPA. I only hope
> > that Toad understands that his ideas are uphill battles, and he could
> > still serve a valuable role getting his ideas under consideration with
> > the Board, even if they aren’t adopted right away. My other hope is
> > that he plays nicely with others and presents himself well if elected
> > (it’s still politics, after all).
>
> Baer,
> Thanks again for your helpful efforts in summarizing the candidate
> statements. It's a bit of a shame that the few delusional guys who
> have nothing better to do than surf RSD clutter up things. You can
> tell a delusional person... it's someone who thinks everyone else is
> delusional.

And watch, a delusional person (let's refer to them as F&T) will not
be able to tell that:
1. They think almost everyone else is delusional.
2. Everyone else thinks only F&T are delusional.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #73 is a reply to message #63] Mon, 22 September 2008 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frankie
Messages: 93
Registered: September 2008
Member
Joe,

I don't think everyone is delusional.

You're on record as saying that Ultimate is the greatest spectator sport.

I'm on record as saying you're delusional for thinking so. You've proven
time and again to be a complete idiot when it comes to Ultimate.

Ultimate is unwatchable but you go ahead and think what you want.


"Joe Seidler" <joe@seidler.com> wrote in message
news:8961c93d-2b10-4887-9130-7255ef433db4@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 19, 12:28 pm, Baer <collin.b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> (This is my analysis of Todd Lebers candidate statement. Please note
> that my own personal opinions and biases are reflected in these
> analyses. Id like to see others thoughts as well. Additionally, the
> UPA will reportedly be posting the audio interviews soon.)
>
> http://www.upa.org/bod/candidate/2009
>
> Regular RSD readers will also be familiar with Toads position on many
> topics. Many readers may also know that I agree with many of Toads
> ideas, but not always with the way he presents himself. His candidate
> statement is not much different. It is short and doesnt provide too
> much detail, but Im sure anyone can read through his endless rants
> on RSD, as he puts it, to get more information.
>
> I do find it refreshing that Toad makes no bones about wanting change
> and innovation in Ultimate, as he is sincere about wanting to make
> Ultimate a better sport, and many candidates (especially in years
> past) do not make grand statements about change.
>
> In his statement, Toad puts a priority on establishing an elite
> competitive series and showcasing it in a modernized fashion. He
> also promotes achieving varsity status for college and high school
> teams for the sake of recognition and legitimacy. He only mentions
> referees once (as a given), but you can be sure that those ideas
> will be included in any proposals. I agree with these ideas, as I
> think putting a more sophisticated game on the field will enable
> Ultimate to make huge strides in the sports world in terms of respect
> and legitimacy, without hurting the game.
>
> Toad also wants to intensify efforts to learn the needs and wants of
> the UPA membership. Low voting numbers and low survey returns clearly
> indicate that not all members voices are heard, and I support efforts
> to get in touch with more of the membership.
>
> Finally, Toad believes he could initiate urgency and action within
> the administration. Being that his posts on RSD outnumber everyone
> elses, and he draws a lot of responses, I think that, whether the
> other Board members agreed with him or not, he definitely would be
> able to stimulate some active and interesting dialogue.
>
> Toad has my vote because of his ideas, and he has already given much
> to the sport in years (decades) past outside of the UPA. I only hope
> that Toad understands that his ideas are uphill battles, and he could
> still serve a valuable role getting his ideas under consideration with
> the Board, even if they arent adopted right away. My other hope is
> that he plays nicely with others and presents himself well if elected
> (its still politics, after all).

Baer,
Thanks again for your helpful efforts in summarizing the candidate
statements. It's a bit of a shame that the few delusional guys who
have nothing better to do than surf RSD clutter up things. You can
tell a delusional person... it's someone who thinks everyone else is
delusional.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #85 is a reply to message #70] Mon, 22 September 2008 11:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Sep 22, 12:55 pm, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
>
> And watch, a delusional person (let's refer to them as F&T) will not
> be able to tell that:
> 1. They think almost everyone else is delusional.

well i cant speak for frank but i will.....frank and i both find each
other delusional to a certian extent, i just find the spirit zealots
(which acording to my recent local data equals 20% of ya) and frank
finds the whole lot of ya delusional......i think?
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #87 is a reply to message #85] Mon, 22 September 2008 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Can someone be wrong without being delusional?
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #91 is a reply to message #63] Mon, 22 September 2008 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jermleeds
Messages: 270
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Comments directed toward Frank, not Mr. Pinto (who is on the mark as
usual).

On Sep 20, 8:22 pm, "Frankie" <billy_berrou(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>
> Well, I stand corrected. What word should I have used instead of apathy?
> My meaning was that many players don't and haven't participated because of
> their disdain for the organization.

While I have captained many a team, thrown the odd tournament, pitched
to help run a league, I have never helped out, explicitly, with the
UPA. Is that because I have disdain for the organization? No, not even
close. I have great respect for the UPA, and think that it has done
great work in addressing the critical needs for participation in, and
the growth of, the sport. I'm sure there are many like me. Frank, you
are fabricating a 'Silent Majority' which you offer no proof exists.

> > There's nothing here about "lack of power or control." You are
> > projecting your own feelings of frustration and inadequacy onto a word
> > which has no connection to these feelings. In fact, people can often
> > feel apathetic towards situations over which they DO have control,
> > like all those old girlfriends of mine who didn't care about the fact
> > that I loved them so much even if they wanted to be stupid stupid and
> > go back to their other boyfriend just because he had a tattoo and was
> > in a band and didn't wet his bed.
>
> > Frank: "Many players hate the UPA and refuse to pay dues to an
> > organization they hate."
>
> > Wow. People hate the upa at the same time they are apathetic towards
> > it? Now that's versatility.
>
> Again, I should have used another word besides apathy. Jadedafication?
> Most of the people I play ultimate with are not UPA members. In fact, less
> than 5% of ultimate players are UPA members.

Evidence? Link? Extraordinary claims require documentation, Frank;
otherwise we can only conclude that you are, y'know...making shit up
again.



>
> > Frank: "There's something in the UPA magazine about running for the
> > board. It says 'are you ready to represent UPA members?' What utter
> > arrogance. As if UPA members are a single-minded entity."

Like any governing body, the board represents its members, with the
diversity of opinion that can be expected in that population.
Different board members will weight their priorities differently, and
different interest groups will therefore be represented with varying
effectiveness. What was your point again?


>
> > There is nothing in this language which fails to allow for the
> > possibility of diversity of opinion within the upa membership.
>
> I didn't have the exact quote with me but the implication was that if you
> want to be a member of the board, you had better toe the company line. At
> least that's how I read it.

See, that's the thing Frank. You need the exact quote. Otherwise, your
argument is 100% strawman, and can therefore be ignored.

>
> > "I'm not sure how well it will be tested. I'm about as likely to be
> > voted in as if I were running for an anti-dogmatic role in the
> > Catholic Church. When the congregation doesn't even know they've been
> > brainwashed, it's a little difficult to convince them otherwise."
>
> > That is a cop-out, Frank.
>
> I'm as interested as anybody to see how this will shake out. I do wish that
> there was a better process than what there is. The Huddle will ask me one
> question that I'll repond to via email
>
> The UPA sent all the applicants the same lame 6 questions that allowed for
> no followup questions or give and take with the interviewer. I'm not sure
> why they were even recorded as opposed to just emailed in.
>
> The greatest feat the Devil ever accomplished was to convince mankind he
> didn't exist. I think of that saying a lot when I think of the New Games
> stuff. I've heard so many people say, 'well Frank, you've clearly made a
> strong case for a linkage between the New Games movement and Ultimate but
> all that stuff is gone now. The game has evolved so much since then".

If the Devil didn't exist, we'd invent him. Frank, you've invented the
nefarious-sounding New Games connection. Ooooo boogey-man! Hordes of
patchouli-stank hippies working to take away your freedom to be
controlled by refs and other responsible pillars of authority! (What
does this sound like? Communists? Willie Horton? The terr-rists?)

Sorry, I'm not buying it, Frank. Doesn't sound like much of anybody
is.



>
> They're in complete denial. Ultimate is all New Games whether people want
> to acknowledge that or not so don't think your premise is very well written.
>
> It's not whether or not people are going to vote against new games, it's how
> many people are going to understand new games tentacles in Ultimate and vote
> against it.
>
> You should date women who are more accepting.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #98 is a reply to message #91] Mon, 22 September 2008 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frankie
Messages: 93
Registered: September 2008
Member
<jermleeds@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:644501db-8b85-4ea7-900d-26f0a6731070@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Comments directed toward Frank, not Mr. Pinto (who is on the mark as
> usual).
>
> On Sep 20, 8:22 pm, "Frankie" <billy_berrou(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, I stand corrected. What word should I have used instead of apathy?
>> My meaning was that many players don't and haven't participated because
>> of
>> their disdain for the organization.
>
> While I have captained many a team, thrown the odd tournament, pitched
> to help run a league, I have never helped out, explicitly, with the
> UPA. Is that because I have disdain for the organization? No, not even
> close. I have great respect for the UPA, and think that it has done
> great work in addressing the critical needs for participation in, and
> the growth of, the sport. I'm sure there are many like me. Frank, you
> are fabricating a 'Silent Majority' which you offer no proof exists.

315 votes is pretty compelling proof.

>> > There's nothing here about "lack of power or control." You are
>> > projecting your own feelings of frustration and inadequacy onto a word
>> > which has no connection to these feelings. In fact, people can often
>> > feel apathetic towards situations over which they DO have control,
>> > like all those old girlfriends of mine who didn't care about the fact
>> > that I loved them so much even if they wanted to be stupid stupid and
>> > go back to their other boyfriend just because he had a tattoo and was
>> > in a band and didn't wet his bed.
>>
>> > Frank: "Many players hate the UPA and refuse to pay dues to an
>> > organization they hate."
>>
>> > Wow. People hate the upa at the same time they are apathetic towards
>> > it? Now that's versatility.
>>
>> Again, I should have used another word besides apathy. Jadedafication?
>> Most of the people I play ultimate with are not UPA members. In fact,
>> less
>> than 5% of ultimate players are UPA members.
>
> Evidence? Link? Extraordinary claims require documentation, Frank;
> otherwise we can only conclude that you are, y'know...making shit up
> again.


Already addressed. From the UPA's website. UPA Membership 30,000
Ultimate players 800,000.

It is extraordinary. That the out of 800,000 one of the board members was
voted in with 315 votes.

Wow.

>
>
>>
>> > Frank: "There's something in the UPA magazine about running for the
>> > board. It says 'are you ready to represent UPA members?' What utter
>> > arrogance. As if UPA members are a single-minded entity."
>
> Like any governing body, the board represents its members, with the
> diversity of opinion that can be expected in that population.
> Different board members will weight their priorities differently, and
> different interest groups will therefore be represented with varying
> effectiveness. What was your point again?

The point is that there is no dichotomy. Other than Todd and myself, I'm
not aware of any candidate that has ever run on a platform of reform.

The only choices are UPA party choices. It's a bit like communism.

>
>>
>> > There is nothing in this language which fails to allow for the
>> > possibility of diversity of opinion within the upa membership.
>>
>> I didn't have the exact quote with me but the implication was that if you
>> want to be a member of the board, you had better toe the company line.
>> At
>> least that's how I read it.
>
> See, that's the thing Frank. You need the exact quote. Otherwise, your
> argument is 100% strawman, and can therefore be ignored.

Ignore me Jeremy. One less mediocre player for me to worry about.

>>
>> > "I'm not sure how well it will be tested. I'm about as likely to be
>> > voted in as if I were running for an anti-dogmatic role in the
>> > Catholic Church. When the congregation doesn't even know they've been
>> > brainwashed, it's a little difficult to convince them otherwise."
>>
>> > That is a cop-out, Frank.
>>
>> I'm as interested as anybody to see how this will shake out. I do wish
>> that
>> there was a better process than what there is. The Huddle will ask me
>> one
>> question that I'll repond to via email
>>
>> The UPA sent all the applicants the same lame 6 questions that allowed
>> for
>> no followup questions or give and take with the interviewer. I'm not
>> sure
>> why they were even recorded as opposed to just emailed in.
>>
>> The greatest feat the Devil ever accomplished was to convince mankind he
>> didn't exist. I think of that saying a lot when I think of the New Games
>> stuff. I've heard so many people say, 'well Frank, you've clearly made a
>> strong case for a linkage between the New Games movement and Ultimate but
>> all that stuff is gone now. The game has evolved so much since then".
>
> If the Devil didn't exist, we'd invent him. Frank, you've invented the
> nefarious-sounding New Games connection.

If you don't see a connection between New Games and the creation of
Ultimate, you're probably in the minority.

> Ooooo boogey-man! Hordes of
> patchouli-stank hippies working to take away your freedom to be
> controlled by refs and other responsible pillars of authority! (What
> does this sound like? Communists? Willie Horton? The terr-rists?)
>
> Sorry, I'm not buying it, Frank. Doesn't sound like much of anybody
> is.

We'll see. I'm as cuious as anyone to see who many votes T & F get.

>
>
>>
>> They're in complete denial. Ultimate is all New Games whether people
>> want
>> to acknowledge that or not so don't think your premise is very well
>> written.
>>
>> It's not whether or not people are going to vote against new games, it's
>> how
>> many people are going to understand new games tentacles in Ultimate and
>> vote
>> against it.
>>
>> You should date women who are more accepting.
>
>
>
>
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #99 is a reply to message #85] Mon, 22 September 2008 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frankie
Messages: 93
Registered: September 2008
Member
--well i cant speak for frank but i will.....frank and i both find each
other delusional to a certian extent, i just find the spirit zealots
(which acording to my recent local data equals 20% of ya) and frank
finds the whole lot of ya delusional......i think?

As I've said, when I discovered the power of the Triple Threat and became
fairly unstoppable, I found myself feeling very disillusioned. It was
incredibly depressing.

Seeing as how nobody else has seemed to have gotten to that point, you're
all pretty much under the same illusion that the game has to be played a
certain way.

As for T & F standing alone, we'll see in November when the votes come out.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #120 is a reply to message #87] Mon, 22 September 2008 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Sep 22, 11:18 am, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can someone be wrong without being delusional?

Yes. But when they consistently call almost everyone delusional (me,
the UPA, everyone who likes Ultimate, etc.), then IMO they are
delusional. They have serious personality problems that very likely
are also evident in their professional and personal lives. They are
extremely insecure and crave attention badly (hence the huge number of
rsd posts). They learned a long time ago that being the "victim" gets
them the attention they need. They rationalize the fact that the
attention is so negative by playing the martyr. It's a game that has
become their life.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #122 is a reply to message #98] Mon, 22 September 2008 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jermleeds
Messages: 270
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Sep 22, 11:55 am, "Frankie" <billy_berrou(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> > While I have captained many a team, thrown the odd tournament, pitched
> > to help run a league, I have never helped out, explicitly, with the
> > UPA. Is that because I have disdain for the organization? No, not even
> > close. I have great respect for the UPA, and think that it has done
> > great work in addressing the critical needs for participation in, and
> > the growth of, the sport. I'm sure there are many like me. Frank, you
> > are fabricating a 'Silent Majority' which you offer no proof exists.
>
> 315 votes is pretty compelling proof.
>
URL? Show your sources, Frank. I don't doubt that those two number are
used somewhere, but demonstrating that you are interpreting that data
correctly is best practice in science, politics and online forums.
Show us the data- if your interpretation of it is correct, your case
will only be bolstered. By not linking to your sources, you incur
suspicion that you are intentionally misinterpreting quantitative data
to make your case (cough Toad cough).


<much deluded ranting snipped>

> > If the Devil didn't exist, we'd invent him. Frank, you've invented the
> > nefarious-sounding New Games connection.
>
> If you don't see a connection between New Games and the creation of
> Ultimate, you're probably in the minority.

Data? Y'know...nevermind.

>
> > Ooooo boogey-man! Hordes of
> > patchouli-stank hippies working to take away your freedom to be
> > controlled by refs and other responsible pillars of authority! (What
> > does this sound like? Communists? Willie Horton? The terr-rists?)
>
> > Sorry, I'm not buying it, Frank. Doesn't sound like much of anybody
> > is.
>
> We'll see. I'm as cuious as anyone to see who many votes T & F get.

Good god, it's like a Paul-Barr ticket, only with far less
credibility.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #132 is a reply to message #87] Mon, 22 September 2008 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frankie
Messages: 93
Registered: September 2008
Member
> Can someone be wrong without being delusional?
>

Sure but in Joe Seidler's case' he's both.

The guy has never strapped em on, knows nothing about how to play the game
and declares ultimate to be the greatest spectator sport of all time when in
reality, it has absolutely zero fan base (outside of himself).
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #152 is a reply to message #132] Mon, 22 September 2008 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Douglas T Lilley
Messages: 674
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Sep 22, 5:05 pm, "Frankie" <billy_berrou(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> > Can someone be wrong without being delusional?
>
> Sure but in Joe Seidler's case' he's both.
>
> The guy has never strapped em on, knows nothing about how to play the game
> and declares ultimate to be the greatest spectator sport of all time when in
> reality, it has absolutely zero fan base (outside of himself).

I'm a fan (and a player). So the fan base has just doubled in the
last 2 minutes. At this rate we'll be filling stadiums next year.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #156 is a reply to message #152] Mon, 22 September 2008 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frankie
Messages: 93
Registered: September 2008
Member
No.

Players don't count.

Delusional parents of players don't count either.

Ultimate has no fan base so for someone to say that Ultimate is the greatest
spectator sport ever, after its had 40 years to establish fans, you've got
to wonder what it is that they are smoking.


"Douglas T Lilley" <q3jane@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:21e5cd93-13ff-4f9c-b065-3d1038c7f51f@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 22, 5:05 pm, "Frankie" <billy_berrou(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> > Can someone be wrong without being delusional?
>
> Sure but in Joe Seidler's case' he's both.
>
> The guy has never strapped em on, knows nothing about how to play the game
> and declares ultimate to be the greatest spectator sport of all time when
> in
> reality, it has absolutely zero fan base (outside of himself).

I'm a fan (and a player). So the fan base has just doubled in the
last 2 minutes. At this rate we'll be filling stadiums next year.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #203 is a reply to message #152] Mon, 22 September 2008 23:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Sep 22, 4:12 pm, Douglas T Lilley <q3j...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 5:05 pm, "Frankie" <billy_berrou(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > > Can someone be wrong without being delusional?
>
> > Sure but in Joe Seidler's case' he's both.
>
> > The guy has never strapped em on, knows nothing about how to play the game
> > and declares ultimate to be the greatest spectator sport of all time when in
> > reality, it has absolutely zero fan base (outside of himself).
>
> I'm a fan (and a player).  So the fan base has just doubled in the
> last 2 minutes.  At this rate we'll be filling stadiums next year.

Welcome to the fan base. Of course what I said quite a while ago was
that for me Ultimate is the best spectator sport. You get to stand on
the sideline, hear what the players are saying, and just feel closer
to the action than most other sports. Put that together with the
athleticism on the field and the arcing of a thrown disc, and it is
very compelling for me. Unfortunately very few other parents, or non-
parents, have taken the time to get to know the sport. And I doubt if
many ever will.

My pessimism does not come from how the sport is played. It comes from
my belief that most people are not interested in a new sport. They are
busy and have enough to watch as it is. So I don't think any non-
mainstream sport has much of a chance in becoming a big spectator
sport. Those that think changing a few rules of how Ultimate is played
will somehow generate new interest in the sport are IMO wrong... some
are delusional ;) Ultimate may grow from it's current size of IMO
100,000-200,000 players in the US to 300,000-400,000 in ten years. And
perhaps continue growing after that. And that growth in players will
IMO not bring a corresponding growth in spectators. Nothing will do
that.

And Douglas, as most people know on rsd, the posts that will surely
come from those must rant to get the attention they crave, are not
worth worrying about. I've noticed that you can delete all of the
posts by the delusional ones, and you still have a good discussion
about Ultimate.
Re: Toad Leber's BOD Candidate Statement [message #204 is a reply to message #98] Mon, 22 September 2008 23:22 Go to previous message
MrPinto
Messages: 601
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> Already addressed.  From the UPA's website.  UPA Membership 30,000
> Ultimate players 800,000.
>
> It is extraordinary.  That the out of 800,000 one of theboardmembers was
> voted in with315votes.
>
> Wow.

The 800K weren't eligible voters, were they? If the criteria is "25
games in a year," I'm a soccer player, a basketball player, a softball
player, a tennis player, a beach volleyball player, a distance runner,
and a track runner in addition to being an ultimate player. I suppose
ultimate isn't even my only disc sport - I'm also a Durango Boot
player, a goaltimate player, and (depending on which year you ask me)
a disc golfer. Although many of those sports have one or more
organizations that facilitate club play, I'm not a member of those
organizations and I sure as hell don't vote for them. I don't hate
the leadership of the beach volleyball club organization of the US of
A, I don't even know if they exist or, if so, what they're called.
Likewise, the dozens of folks that play in my company ultimate game
don't hate the UPA, they've likely not heard of it.

315 out of 30,000 does seem anemic though, noting of course that low
voter turnout usually coincides with low voter emotion on the various
issues, not the other way around. Could you link us up with the
source data you're drawing from here? For comparison, local voter
turnout in a non-congressional election is what? 20-30% or so? 315
is obviously way below that...

> The only choices are UPA party choices.  It's a bit like communism.

Communism is what they call it when the state controls the means of
production. A "one party state" is what they call it when one party
wins elections all the time. Mexico and Japan would be good examples
of post-WWII one party states.

FWIW, Communist states tend to have VERY high voter turnout rates,
like 95%+.

Guilty by association is a pretty lame rhetorical tactic to begin
with, but the association here is a stretch as well.

> >> I didn't have the exact quote with me but the implication was that if you
> >> want to be a member of theboard, you had better toe the company line.
> >> At
> >> least that's how I read it.
>
> > See, that's the thing Frank. You need the exact quote. Otherwise, your
> > argument is 100% strawman, and can therefore be ignored.
>
> Ignore me Jeremy.  One less mediocre player for me to worry about.

The gentleman makes a valid point, and you immediately retreat into
your "triple threat" position of martyrdom, ad hominem and non
sequitur. You and I both know that no board member ever intended to
imply that there was some conspiracy to keep non-conforming opinions
out of the race. If you'd care to bring out the quote that you intend
to "interpret" in that direction, I'm sure that we here on the
internets would be happy to evaluate your interpretation for you, but
if not, no amount of name-calling is going to help your argument.

> >> It's not whether or not people are going to vote against new games, it's
> >> how
> >> many people are going to understand new games tentacles in Ultimate and
> >> vote
> >> against it.

While it does seem true that you have yet to convince any large cohort
of potential voters of the NG tentacle threat, I'm not sure how The
Huddle allowing you the use of their web space would improve your
chances very much. All hypotheticals of course, but it strikes me
that you suffer more from a weak conversion-to-impression ratio than
you do from a weak number of impressions. If 315 votes gets it done
and there are way more than that reading RSD...

~p
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