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WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114428] Mon, 23 April 2012 06:08 Go to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
so it seems pandorahs box is now opened as it has never been before.
and theres no doubt that the younger generations of ultimate players
will be watching and enjoying this new and improved audl version of
ultimate. last i checked its usau thats largely responsible for
overseeing and organizing competition within college and hs, right?
so what WILL they do when these kids say "hey, we want to play the
audl version".....or at least try it. and you knoow that ole saying
from back in the 70's, "tryyyyyy it, youll liiiiiiiike it".

as i said in an earlier thread, usau is hattin it? any predictions as
to how they will respond? will it be with the same cognative
disonance that theyve used to date? or will they eat crow and
actually change their anti ref policies and actually redefine what
"ultimate" is. either way, this is gonna be interesting to watch.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114437 is a reply to message #114428] Mon, 23 April 2012 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kenneth44
Messages: 25
Registered: December 2009
Junior Member
I can't speak to what USAU would say if HS Kids were to start asking for the "AUDL version" (can we just call it officiated?) of ultimate, but I can address a couple of issues that are tied in with this question.

As part of an organization trying to grow youth ultimate in NY, I can tell you that one thing that is a huge selling point for the school administrators we are talking to about adopting ultimate as a recognized school sport is the lack of expense associated with hiring officials. Schools, like everybody else, are trying to navigate the tricky waters of our current economic climate, and they are tasked with the challenge of providing more services to more students with fewer teachers and less money. Enter ultimate, a sport with low equipment costs, no officiating costs, and a strong volunteer base willing to handle some of the coaching for free. The character education component associated with sotg is a bonus, but the bottom line is the bottom line, and that's cost.

On another note, as a former teacher I can tell you that schools don't care what kids want unless kids are paying for it. That's why they talk the talk about providing healthier food options to combat obesity but serve french fries and pizza every day because that what kids buy. When it comes to athletic programs, it'll be a long time before schools and/or USAU have the resources (trained officials and the money to pay them) to answer the hypothetical outcry that may one day come from kids hungry for officiated ultimate because they want to play "like the pros."

For the moment, let's just agree that it'll be a nice problem to have to deal with.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114483 is a reply to message #114437] Mon, 23 April 2012 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Ken, one of the arguments that has floated for quite some time is the lack of referees and the desire for HS Athletic Associations to have some sort of safety net to accomodate the potential size difference of high school aged children and the possibility of injury due to the open field nature of the sport of ultimate. ie, not having refs in tennis is just fine since the two players are unlikely to run full steam into one another.

I realize you may not be talking about varsity level sanctioning for ultimate at this point but I would be very interested to hear the administrator's take on this aspect of offering ultimate to the students.

Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114489 is a reply to message #114483] Mon, 23 April 2012 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kyle Weisbrod
Messages: 195
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Jimmy, that issue can be addressed by requiring trained and certified coaches for all sanctioned games. Coaches have a legal duty to address non-matching size issues. This is established jurisprudence and is a topic covered in USAU's coaching certification.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114506 is a reply to message #114437] Mon, 23 April 2012 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 23, 10:10 am, kenneth44 <kdob...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> I can't speak to what USAU would say if HS Kids were to
> start asking for the "AUDL version" (can we just call it
> officiated?)

well, traditional ultimate is "officiated" too. its just self
"officiated". which is a disnomer in itself. its really cross team
officiation process. and reffed ultimate, by definition means
"reffered to in case of dispute"......which is actually more
descriptive of the observer system. reffed.....officiated, whats the
difference. to me its the r-word that has had the sz's get all 'in a
bag" all these years......so thats the word i'm gonna use.
--------------------------------------------------------


>
> As part of an organization trying to grow youth ultimate in
> NY, I can tell you that one thing that is a huge selling
> point for the school administrators we are talking to about
> adopting ultimate as a recognized school sport is the lack
> of expense associated with hiring officials.

really? are they using that same philosophy to phase out using refs
in other sports? i'm gonna guess no......and i'll also go one further
and guess that the administrators of those other sports would think
its crazy to do such a thing. and it aint like they arent aware of
the existance of their respective sports being played in a so/pick up
manner.
------------------------------------------------------------ -



Schools, like
> everybody else, are trying to navigate the tricky waters of
> our current economic climate, and they are tasked with the
> challenge of providing more services to more students with
> fewer teachers and less money.

isnt the money they save on equiptment enough not to have to sacrifice
a better game management experience? especially at the youth level
where the experience levels of self officiation are so inconsistant.
----------------------------------------



Enter ultimate, a sport with
> low equipment costs, no officiating costs, and a strong
> volunteer base willing to handle some of the coaching for
> free.

dont forget to include the dynamic of young green kids being so
overwhelmed with the newness of the sport that the idea of having to
simutainiously ref it too might turn them off from playing the sport
altogether.
-----------------------------------


The character education component associated with sotg
> is a bonus,

pffft, all sports build character. i mean, why are so people so hung
up on there not being refs in order to evoke good charater by
following the rules and using good sportsmanship. and the other side
of the coin is that "letting a kid loose in a candy store" can
actually instill bad charater.
-------------------------------------------



but the bottom line is the bottom line, and
> that's cost.

well, ya get what ya pay for in life. again, suggest this philosophy
to those that organize and administrate other sports and my guess is
that they would laughed you outa the gym/off the field, etc
----------------------------------------------------------
>
> On another note, as a former teacher I can tell you that
> schools don't care what kids want unless kids are paying for
> it. That's why they talk the talk about providing healthier
> food options to combat obesity but serve french fries and
> pizza every day because that what kids buy.

and kids (or even grown ups for that matter) aint buyin self
officiated ultimate......as a form of sports entertainment anyways.
-----------------------------------


When it comes to
> athletic programs, it'll be a long time before schools
> and/or USAU have the resources (trained officials and the
> money to pay them)

i dont buy that contention. i mean, if they (athletic programs) have
the money for other sports why cant they get the money for this one.
AND, if ultimate (the upa/usau) had of had refs all along i dont see
them all of a sudden saying they would be willing to sacrifice that
enhancement just like that because of todays economic climate. the
resources are there......its just a matter of reprioritizing how they
are being used. and all we are taling about is a buck or two per game
per player. on top of that those funds would likely be going to olde
people that play the sport as a way to earn extra income so they can
go to tournies, buy discs, etc......so essentially that money would
stay "in house".
--------------------------------------



to answer the hypothetical outcry that
> may one day come from kids hungry for officiated ultimate
> because they want to play "like the pros."

i dunno, we are talking about the same kids that play in little
leagues in which saving a buck by skimping on refs is never an issue.
now enter the audl. kids arent dumb, they want to emulate big
leaguers.....AND they learn at an early age how to be deceptive, lie
and cheat. put em in an environment in which they question the
honesty of their opponents and they may say the obvious.....which is
"why cant we have refs in this sport " or "why cant we have refs like
they have in the audl". and we are talking kids here right? now lets
look at adolesents and young (college) adults......and lets see how
they would feel when faced with people that understand how they can
overtly cheat. not to be harsh, but people like you back in the day.
i aint sayin i was honest abe back then either but i knew how to
cheat, i knew when to cheat and i cheated.......but you were the
master. dont you think people need to be protected from people like
us? DONT YOU THINK PARENTS WANT THEIR KIDS PROTEDTED FROM PEOPLE LIKE
US? and i dont even put the majority of the blame on people like us,
we're just human after all. i put the blame on the system that
enabled and allowed us to be the way we were. whats that
saying....."dont hate the playa, hate the game"
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
>
> For the moment, let's just agree that it'll be a nice
> problem to have to deal with.

"nice"? kd using the word "nice"? the way i see it is uppin a buck
or two per player per game to have a properly managed sports
competition is a nice problem to have to deal with. especially in
light of the fact that its a standard problem thats delt with in every
other sport.......in fact, its so standard that it isnt even viewed as
a problem, yet as an enhancement.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114552 is a reply to message #114489] Mon, 23 April 2012 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Kyle, thank you for the response. If you could direct me to that literature I would appreciate it. However, I am more interested in hearing how school administrators feel about the issue than how an organization that is admittedly biased towards proposing a solution feels about it. I would love to hear the administration's initial reaction to an unofficiated field sport AND their reaction to the USAU's proposed solution.

When I was involved in coaching a high school team the administration was extremely wary of the idea the idea.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114557 is a reply to message #114552] Mon, 23 April 2012 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kyle Weisbrod
Messages: 195
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Jimmy,

A quick google search of "legal duties of coaches" turns up a bunch of results with the the generally accepted 9 legal duties. Number 5 is: "proper matching of athletes in practices and games by size, experience and ability"

Here's the first link for easy confirmation: http://www.iahsaa.org/RichEngelhorn.html

A similar search for officials legal duties turns up many of the same legal responsibilities. Although, in my very limited research here, I don't see any duties around matching athletes for coaches. This appeared to be the most comprehensive list: http://blue.utb.edu/jloff/1309/notes/Chapter%209.htm.



Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114656 is a reply to message #114489] Tue, 24 April 2012 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 23, 4:40 pm, Kyle Weisbrod <kyle.weisb...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> Jimmy, that issue can be addressed by requiring trained and
> certified coaches for all sanctioned games.

why stop there though. i mean, if you cant get trained and certified
coaches whats stopping you/the sport from aquiring trained and
certified "officials"
----------------------------------------




 Coaches have a
> legal duty to address non-matching size issues.

and what do refs (in other sports) have a legal duty to do?
------------------------------------------



 This is
> established jurisprudence and is a topic covered in USAU's
> coaching certification.

so its a minimalist approach to providing proper supervision, BFD.
why sell the sport short? if it can be better with refs then just
fuckin figure it out and make it happen. i dont get whats so hard
about it
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114657 is a reply to message #114557] Tue, 24 April 2012 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 23, 11:50 pm, Kyle Weisbrod <kyle.weisb...@gmail.com> wrote:.
> Jimmy,
>
> A quick google search of "legal duties of coaches" turns up
> a bunch of results with the the generally accepted 9 legal
> duties.

so search "legal duties for refs" and tell us what that turns up
------------------------------------------------

 Number 5 is: "proper matching of athletes in
> practices and games by size, experience and ability"

well, surely there are things covered in the "legal duties for refs"
that ARENT in the "legal duties for coaches" section, right?
-------------------------------------------------
>
> Here's the first link for easy confirmation:http://www.iahsaa.org/RichEngelhorn.html
>
> A similar search for officials legal duties turns up many of
> the same legal responsibilities.

many? as in "many" but not all?
--------------------------------------


 Although, in my very
> limited research here, I don't see any duties around
> matching athletes for coaches.


what duties do you see?
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114658 is a reply to message #114656] Tue, 24 April 2012 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sunwalker
Messages: 95
Registered: April 2011
Location: US
Member
ulticritic wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 15:48
On Apr 23, 4:40 pm, Kyle Weisbrod <kyle.weisb...@gmail.com[/email]> wrote:.

> Jimmy, that issue can be addressed by requiring trained and
> certified coaches for all sanctioned games.

why stop there though. i mean, if you cant get trained and certified
coaches whats stopping you/the sport from aquiring trained and
certified "officials"
----------------------------------------

Money
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114662 is a reply to message #114557] Tue, 24 April 2012 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 23, 11:50 pm, Kyle Weisbrod <kyle.weisb...@gmail.com> wrote:.
>
> A similar search for officials legal duties turns up many of
> the same legal responsibilities.

which you obviously didnt read.......or are just cognativly disonat to
what it said
-------------------------------------------



 Although, in my very
> limited research here, I don't see any duties around
> matching athletes for coaches.

fuck all that.......all you need to know is what 1) b) (1) says
--------------------------------------------



  This appeared to be the
> most comprehensive list:http://blue.utb.edu/jloff/1309/notes/Chapter%209.htm.

again.....1) b) (1).......read it and RECOGNIZE
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114734 is a reply to message #114662] Wed, 25 April 2012 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 991
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
Kenny D : "On another note, as a former teacher I can tell you that schools don't care what kids want unless kids are paying for it."


uh, odd quote bump
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114745 is a reply to message #114662] Wed, 25 April 2012 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kyle Weisbrod
Messages: 195
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
ulticritic wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 19:10



  This appeared to be the
> most comprehensive list:http://blue.utb.edu/jloff/1309/notes/Chapter%209.htm.

again.....1) b) (1).......read it and RECOGNIZE


Two direct responses to you in one week, I hope this doesn't become a habit.

Toad: we're talking about liability. The section you are referring to has nothing to do with liability. Section 3 is all about liability.

It is clearly okay legally to have competitive sports without referees presence (as tennis does at many levels). The question that Jimmy brought up was around matching participants by size and whether that was the legal duty of an official.

I believe that I've provided sufficient evidence that that is a legal duty of coaches and not referees.

Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114747 is a reply to message #114745] Wed, 25 April 2012 09:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brosev
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
I hope someone, somewhere, sends a team to a tournament this summer with the name "Cognativly Disonat".
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114751 is a reply to message #114745] Wed, 25 April 2012 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Beekeeper
Messages: 10
Registered: April 2012
Junior Member
Kyle Weisbrod wrote:
> ulticritic wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 19:10
>> This appeared to be the
>> > most comprehensive
>> > list:http://blue.utb.edu/jloff/1309/notes/Chapter%209.htm.
>>
>> again.....1) b) (1).......read it and RECOGNIZE
>
>
> Two direct responses to you in one week, I hope this doesn't
> become a habit.
>
> Toad: we're talking about liability. The section you are
> referring to has nothing to do with liability. Section 3 is
> all about liability.
> It is clearly okay legally to have competitive sports
> without referees presence (as tennis does at many levels). The question
> that Jimmy brought up was around matching
> participants by size and whether that was the legal duty of
> an official.
> I believe that I've provided sufficient evidence that that
> is a legal duty of coaches and not referees.

Goddammit have you never watched Goodfellas? Um. One post yesterday,
one post the day before and today: FIFTY MILLION POSTS. Are you an
ant-farm, scrub? Should I just step all over your exposed asshole? The
end of the runway The end of the runway The end of the runway The end of
the runway The end of the runway the end of the runway the end of the
runway the end of the runway the end of the runway The end of the runway
The end of the runway The end of the runway the end of the runway The
end of the runway The end of the runway The end of the runway the end of
the runway is just a wide open field.

--
Errr... Junkets. I didn't t'really come, how 'bout you?
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114754 is a reply to message #114747] Wed, 25 April 2012 09:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
It is clearly okay legally to have competitive sports without referees presence (as tennis does at many levels).


i still don't like this answer. i see that there is a legal duty for coaches to ensure the safety of thier players and that would/could include matching sized athletes.

for me, the major disconnect between the tennis argument and the same for ultimate is the potential for contact. whether of the same size or not i somehow feel that administrators would look at the idea of high school or middle school kids running around chasing an object on a playing field as different from running around chasing an object on a court where they are separated by a net. add in the size, strength and athleticism range for children of that age and you have another layer to think about.

clearly i'm not going to get the response from you that i'm looking for since you can't possibly have had that conversation with every, or even a majority of, high school administrators and HS Athletic Association officials in the country. i was hoping to get some insight from Kenny as to how the administrators at his school or school system felt about the subject. as his style is more that of a "one and done" poster, i'm not really counting on hearing from him and my question will remain unanswered for some time i imagine.

in today's climate of litigation and protection from any injury (dodgeball being outlawed and whatnot) i imagine these administrators to be hesitant to place 14 kids on a field without having an official out there to give at least the appearance of protection. hopefully ultimate will continue to grow at a rate where the administrators are forced to make their stance on that clear and we will see what happens.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114758 is a reply to message #114745] Wed, 25 April 2012 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 25, 12:05 pm, Kyle Weisbrod <kyle.weisb...@gmail.com> wrote:.

>
> Two direct responses to you in one week, I hope this doesn't
> become a habit.

if it were habitual you wouldnt have conveniently avoided responding
to my many other valid counterpoints to your other skewed arguments
-----------------------------------------------
>
> Toad: we're talking about liability.  The section you are
> referring to has nothing to do with liability.  Section 3 is
> all about liability.

you might be talking about liability......i'm talking about the
responsibility of a re vs the responsibility of a coach.
------------------------------------------------------
>
> It is clearly okay legally to have competitive sports
> without referees presence (as tennis does at many levels).

not according to section 1) b) (1) it isnt
-----------------------------------------------
> The question that Jimmy brought up was around matching
> participants by size and whether that was the legal duty of
> an official.

ok, i'm now bringing up a different point......one that i'll assume
you will willfully ignore
---------------------------------------------
>
> I believe that I've provided sufficient evidence that that
> is a legal duty of coaches and not referees.

while conveniently discounting what the legal duties of a ref are,
right?
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114761 is a reply to message #114747] Wed, 25 April 2012 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 25, 12:15 pm, brosev <bro...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> I hope someone, somewhere, sends a team to a tournament this
> summer with the name "Cognativly Disonat".

and what would be more fitting than if that team was comprised of usau
administrators
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114772 is a reply to message #114428] Wed, 25 April 2012 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 991
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
(I've said this in the past)...

jimmy Thefan Holtzman:

"in today's climate of litigation and protection from any injury (dodgeball being outlawed and whatnot) i imagine these administrators to be hesitant to place 14 kids on a field without having an official out there to give at least the appearance of protection. hopefully ultimate will continue to grow at a rate where the administrators are forced to make their stance on that clear and we will see what happens."


Though jimmy h. might be talking about strictly youth/hs ultimate, this doesn't seem to apply to college clubs,etc.

In my ~ 10 yrs. as a staff adviser for a college team I've had one conversation with Mizzou campus officials about having an official "coach."

went something like this....


Mizzou admin. : "Do you think the guys are interested in having a coach?"

me: "Can't say I know really. If they vote and decide they want one, it's aok with me. I'm definitely not interested in becoming a coach myself."

college admin: "Coaches are actually our # 1 liability. Coaches are more of a liability than that olympic swimming pool (drownings) or shotguns in the gun club (injury/death by projectile)."


So if the college kids started asking about playing the "AUDL version" ....I'm guessing they would be met with a blank stare.

For now campus officials are more concerned with sports medicine folks on scene than a coach or refs...imo.

Peter Mc
MDSC

"Archiving disc sports since 1997."
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114775 is a reply to message #114772] Wed, 25 April 2012 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 25, 4:30 pm, Lance Marput <lancemar...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> Though jimmy h. might be talking about strictly youth/hs
> ultimate,

cant get nuthin past you, eh?
------------------------------------
>
> In my ~ 10 yrs. as a staff adviser for a college team I've
> had one conversation with Mizzou campus officials about
> having an official "coach."

thats because its a cllub sport dipwadd......one step up from
intrmurals......where college kids are considered adults
--------------------------------------------------------
>
> went something like this....
>
> Mizzou admin. : "Do you think the guys are interested in
> having a coach?"
>
> me: "Can't say I know really. If they vote and decide they
> want one, it's aok with me. I'm definitely not interested in
> becoming a coach myself."

i'm sure they probably wouldnt want you as their coach
anyways........and i doubt that any of the college coaches have any
credentials that would classify them as "trained" anyways.
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> college admin: "Coaches are actually our # 1 liability.
> Coaches are more of a liability than that olympic swimming
> pool (drownings) or shotguns in the gun club (injury/death
> by projectile)."

there ya got it.......they are a liability legaly even theough they
may be assets competitively
------------------------------------------------------------ -----
>
> So if the college kids started asking about playing the
> "AUDL version" ....I'm guessing they would be met with a
> blank stare.

by whom? and i'd say they'de get a lot more blank stares from plying
without refs than with them.......and that goes for the whole sport in
general
----------------------------------------------
>
> For now campus officials are more concerned with sports
> medicine folks on scene than a coach or refs...imo.

well, lets shift to how intrmural sports are facilitated at your
college. i'm assuming they have trainers present......and
refs......but i'm thinking no coaches????
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114779 is a reply to message #114754] Wed, 25 April 2012 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kenneth44
Messages: 25
Registered: December 2009
Junior Member
All participants in sports had to get medical clearance as well as parental consent, and the forms held the school system harmless in the event of injury. The forms likely wouldn't hold up in court if someone could prove an injury resulted from negligence on the part of the school or a school employee, but the school was satisfied that they had covered themselves. I suppose the perception of ultimate as a "soft" sport (as compared to football, basketball, baseball, etc.) made administrators less concerned about serious injury, but who knows? I don't think anyone could argue that having officials diminishes the risk of injury. Serious injuries are on the rise across all HS sports, and there aren't any fewer officials.

Probably the only sport that truly matches kids by size is wrestling. In pretty much every other sport there's a pretty broad spectrum of size and strength competing at the same time.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114802 is a reply to message #114779] Thu, 26 April 2012 04:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 25, 9:50 pm, kenneth44 <kdob...@gmail.com> wrote:.

I don't think anyone could
> argue that having officials diminishes the risk of injury.
> Serious injuries are on the rise across all HS sports, and
> there aren't any fewer officials.

how about we get back to the resources and character aspects of your
argument then.......cause i aint buying either of those......or really
buying that school administrators (specifically ad's and coaches) are
buyin them either. i guess i go back to the common sense and logic of
the "legal duties of referees" in the post kyle provided under section
1) b) (1).......and have to say that i'm pretty daRN surprised that
someone like yourself would actuall be taking the anti ref side of the
arguement.......much less be playing the "character" card in doing
so.......which is why "imunnnahavetaCALL"

i guess my main point is that the player experience of playing any
sport with trained officials is superior to that of having players
enforce rules and manage the game themselves (especially younger
kids). and the more "official" the game is the truer this is. so why
even wait for the kids to demand it......just man up and do it for
em.....because its better in every way. just because the usau
administrators are lame ass spirit zealots and loath the idea of refs
(for some perverted reason) dosent mean that peole like you (those on
the inside of school systems trying to legitamize the sport) should
follow in their footsteps.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114804 is a reply to message #114428] Thu, 26 April 2012 06:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 991
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
oh....let me re-phrase that
Leber.

I think hs & campus officials across the land are going to cower in the corner the first time a glossy eyed 9th grader or college student brings up the AUDL model & reffed ultimate.

You are onto something there dudeski.

Peter Mc



Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114806 is a reply to message #114428] Thu, 26 April 2012 06:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 991
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
the scene:

star date 2013
Springfield America
gym teacher's quarters


4 ft. 11 balding hs student burst into the gym teacher's office.

hs student: hey coach....(catching breath).... sorry to barge in coach. The guys have voted and want officiation at the dirt field asap for the ultimate tourney.

coach: "Secretary, get Mike Gerics on the line ! We needs zebras STAT !! Now get out of here kid. I'm watching the AUDL weekly highlights.

Peter Mc


Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114808 is a reply to message #114804] Thu, 26 April 2012 07:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
I don't think anyone could argue that having officials diminishes the risk of injury.


no, you're right. they don't do anything to diminish injury. i'm just thinking from the standpoint of the parent that finds out his kid got trucked and broke his arm or something. "you mean there's not even a ref out there!?!"

thank you for the info and insight as to how at least one school is handling the issue in the real world.

Quote:
Probably the only sport that truly matches kids by size is wrestling. In pretty much every other sport there's a pretty broad spectrum of size and strength competing at the same time.

true that. otherwise there might be kids that were simply held out of sports via "you're too big/small"
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114836 is a reply to message #114808] Thu, 26 April 2012 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> > I don't think anyone could argue that having officials
> > diminishes the risk of injury.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

--i would argue it.

what are the main reasons to have officials....to provide fair play
and safety for the athletes.
insuring fair play....may RESULT in a safer environment for athletes.

calling and penalizing flagrant or overly aggressive contact.....IS
making a safer environment for the athletes.

having officials.....DOES diminish the risk of injury.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114840 is a reply to message #114836] Thu, 26 April 2012 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 26, 5:39 pm, Reggie Fanelli <ageric...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> > > I don't think anyone could argue that having officials
> > > diminishes the risk of injury.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> --i would argue it.
>
> what are the main reasons to have officials....to provide fair play
> and safety for the athletes.
> insuring fair play....may RESULT in a safer environment for athletes.
>
> calling and penalizing flagrant or overly aggressive contact.....IS
> making a safer environment for the athletes.
>
> having officials.....DOES diminish the risk of injury.

and/or AT THE VERY LEAST gives the perception that it could/would
dimiinish the risk of injury. its basically another layer of risk
management...........that would help also with the liability
factor......

aside from the obvious:

(1) In all competitive sports it is important to have officials who
are experienced, mentally alert, fair and well-qualified to make
immediate decisions and whose decisions must be final and binding.
(THIS IS FROM THE LINK KYLE, OF ALL PEOPLE, POSTED)

which is pretty fucing obvious to anyone that doesent have their head
up their ass.

fyi, i was leaving the Y today after getting a good soak/steam and, as
i was walking out, i passed the gym and saw a game of 4 on 4 between
some elderly men and, wouldnt ya know, there was a referee standing
there on the base line under the hoop......whistle and stripes and
all. so if the Y has the resources and brains to be able to
facilitate refs for 50+ year old men playing half court b-ball
shouldnt the sport of ultimate be able to do the same for their youth.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114853 is a reply to message #114745] Thu, 26 April 2012 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wuzandfuzz
Messages: 186
Registered: July 2010
Senior Member
What is more interesting to me is not, do coaches have legal liability - tennis coaches do too theoretically. Ultimate is a physical sport when played right, and kids bang bodies to get the disc.

Could it be that school administrators are wary of offering sanctioning to a sport with no ref where kids are contacting each other? It's great that the coaches are bound to make sure they put the right size kid on, but having SOMEONE To manage the game and tempers RIGHT NEXT TO YOU is totally different from your coach or the other coach.

I'd guess this kind of game management is something that would definitely help administrators make the jump. To put it another way, Would an administrator be ok with womens lacrosse (no checking) without refs if they had spirit? I'd probably say no.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114880 is a reply to message #114853] Fri, 27 April 2012 04:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 26, 11:05 pm, paul <elephantvor...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> What is more interesting to me is not, do coaches have legal
> liability - tennis coaches do too theoretically.  Ultimate
> is a physical sport when played right, and kids bang bodies
> to get the disc.
>
> Could it be that school administrators are wary of offering
> sanctioning to a sport with no ref where kids are contacting
> each other?

yea, and i think this is what jimmy was eluding to. what sz's with
their heads in the clouds cant grasp this is even more interesting
-----------------------------------------------------------



 It's great that the coaches are bound to make
> sure they put the right size kid on,

but IS that something thay even do? i was at a hs tourny recently and
saw lots of mismatches (size of player wise). even hs football will
have situations with a smaller opponent getting leagaly mauled by an
opposing player
---------------------------------------------------





but having SOMEONE To
> manage the game and tempers RIGHT NEXT TO YOU is totally
> different from your coach or the other coach.

definitely. and traditionally its the coaches role to "work" the
officials when they seem to be making bad calls. i mean, can you
imagine a scenerio in which a coach "works" an official when he makes
a suspect call that favors his own team.......for the sake of that
crazy "save the world thru ultimate" philosophy that the anti ref
spirit zealots subscribe to.

and isnt that "integrity rule" that the audl has enough for ultimate
players to flourish their self proclaimed superior sportsmanship? to
me its an even better way to do such, or build character, or whatever
that "jesus complex" goal is with the whole no ref thing.......and one
that ive been suggesting for years. alas, every time the sz's get to
this point in the argument they always seem to play the "limmited
resource" card, whining about the extra buck or two each player would
have to antee up for every game......or the fact that there arent
enough qualified people to take on those roles.
----------------------------------------------
>
> I'd guess this kind of game management is something that
> would definitely help administrators make the jump.


i think there is a portion of the ultimate community that really
dosent want the sport to make that jump though.......partly because
they secretly know that this is what it would take.......and,
unfortunately, most of those that feel this way are the ones that have
administrative authority over the sport (especially within usau)
-------------------------------------------------------



 To put
> it another way, Would an administrator be ok with womens
> lacrosse (no checking) without refs if they had spirit?  I'd
> probably say no.

any thinking person would. personally, i still dont get why people
that play this sport so gulably buy into the no ref thing as a
positive. to me its a negitive in more ways than one.

maybe this whole audl thing will shed light on the positives of having
refs in the sport. its kinda ashamed that such an outside/independant
group would have to be established to show the govening body the error
of its ways......but such if life as they say.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114883 is a reply to message #114880] Fri, 27 April 2012 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
>   It's great that the coaches are bound to make
> > sure they put the right size kid on,
~~~~~~~~~~~~

---ultimate coaches?
are bound....to match-up......size-wise??????

is that what i'm reading here?


not in any other sport......on earth......right?

coaches are SUPPOSED to TRY to create mismatches....or any sort.....in
every other sport....right?
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114885 is a reply to message #114883] Fri, 27 April 2012 05:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dannonjax
Messages: 120
Registered: February 2012
Senior Member
On the issue of size/weight of participants in sports:

In youth sports, not sure the exact age but somewhere around 13ish (depends on the sport), size/weight and physical ability are matched. When children are developing, the differences between a "big" kid and a 'small' kid can be dramatic, not just in size but in strength development.

This is especially true in high contact sports (football), but can be applied in less contact oriented settings. In soccer, the biggest/most developed 8 year olds may play up with 9 or 10 year olds rather than putting the smallest 8 year olds at risk. That is why youth sports are classified as Under-10, or Under-12. The age is a ceiling but there is no floor. Even in baseball, where there is very little contact between players, it is not uncommon for a youth player who develops early as a pitcher to 'play-up' because the danger/fear posed by high velocity pitches to less developed children. In these youth settings, coaches are instructed/encouraged to avoid potentially dangerous mismatches in size.

Once kids get into HS, the developmental differences are not as dramatic and the height/weight separation does not restrict who plays with who (with the exception of wrestling/boxing). Even though one 15 year old is 6 feet tall and one is 4 foot 5, they both have muscles/skeletal development that is closer to adult than child.

When I coached HS freshman basketball, no one had a problem with my TINY 4 foot 8 inch (MAYBE) 75 lbs PG was on the same court as a 6'2, 230 lbs C from another school. Once they reach that age, their ability to absorb an impact from a larger player and control their body in collisions is more developed than at younger ages. And I was happy to see my diminutive PG mix it up inside and rip the ball from those bigger players.

So, yes, size/weight is a consideration in sports participation at the youth level, but generally once you reach HS, those considerations are no longer in effect.

Also, to clarify this statement:

"(1) In all competitive sports it is important to have officials who are experienced, mentally alert, fair and well-qualified to make immediate decisions and whose decisions must be final and binding."

This sentence is defining the characteristics of officials and their decisions. It is NOT saying it is important to have officials. It is saying that, where there are officials, it is important that they are "experienced, mentally alert, fair and well-qualified to make immediate decisions."

Regardless, not particularly important, but that document is very narrow in its scope and is not relevant to the discussion of whether ultimate should have officials or not. It IS relevant in that, where we have officials, these types of legal obligations/conditions will be applied and need to be considered.

Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114889 is a reply to message #114885] Fri, 27 April 2012 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
"(1) In all competitive sports it is important to have officials who are experienced, mentally alert, fair and well-qualified to make immediate decisions and whose decisions must be final and binding."

This sentence is defining the characteristics of officials and their decisions. It is NOT saying it is important to have officials.


then:
Quote:
but that document is very narrow in its scope and is not relevant to the discussion of whether ultimate should have officials or not.


why? is ultimate not a competitive sport?
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114893 is a reply to message #114885] Fri, 27 April 2012 07:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 27, 8:50 am, dan nonjax <dannon...@gmail.com> wrote:.
..
> On the issue of size/weight of participants in sports:
>
> In youth sports, not sure the exact age but somewhere around
> 13ish (depends on the sport), size/weight and physical
> ability are matched.

i thought it was all by age??? now in football (and wrestling
obviously) i know there are weight restrictions, maybe lax too
(anybody???) but i've NEVER herd of size weight and physical ability
being "matched" in basketball (which is the sport i would liken
ultimate to more than any other).
--------------------------------------


When children are developing, the
> differences between a "big" kid and a 'small' kid can be
> dramatic, not just in size but in strength development.

which is why they catagorize them by age, right?
------------------------------------------
>
> This is especially true in high contact sports (football),
> but can be applied in less contact oriented settings. In
> soccer, the biggest/most developed 8 year olds may play up
> with 9 or 10 year olds rather than putting the smallest 8
> year olds at risk.

key words, "may play up"......which also infers that they "may not
play up". please clarify though, is soccer a contact sport where some
contact is not only allowed but also encouraged? is basketball a
contact sport? is ultimate a contact sport?
-------------------------------------------------


That is why youth sports are classified
> as Under-10, or Under-12. The age is a ceiling but there is
> no floor.

but thats still 'optional"
-------------------------------


Even in baseball, where there is very little
> contact between players, it is not uncommon for a youth
> player who develops early as a pitcher to 'play-up' because
> the danger/fear posed by high velocity pitches to less
> developed children.

really? i sure never herd of that. and i cant imagine a parent or
kid that could dominate in the age group he's supposed to be in
"playing up" and being mediocre in the older kids league for the sake
of all the players his own age that he would dominate against.
especially when the folowing season he would be "up" with kids older
than him and be more challenged.
--------------------------------------------------------


In these youth settings, coaches are
> instructed/encouraged to avoid potentially dangerous
> mismatches in size.

not in my kids baseball league they arent
----------------------------------------
>
> Once kids get into HS, the developmental differences are not
> as dramatic and the height/weight separation does not
> restrict who plays with who (with the exception of
> wrestling/boxing).

so you are saying that all hs kids develope at the same rate?
-----------------------------------------------



Even though one 15 year old is 6 feet
> tall and one is 4 foot 5, they both have muscles/skeletal
> development that is closer to adult than child.

you sure about that? seems like the kkid thats only 4' 5" would still
have childs muscles/skeleton untill he hit his growth spurt and grew
that extra foot. of course i'm using logic and common sense in my
hypothisis......i dont know what you are using
------------------------------------
>
> When I coached HS freshman basketball, no one had a problem
> with my TINY 4 foot 8 inch (MAYBE) 75 lbs PG was on the same
> court as a 6'2, 230 lbs C from another school.

uhmmm, did yall have refs? if you hadent of do you think people and
parents would have had a problem with that? especially when it got
rough and the bigger kids took advantage of that "player control"
aspect that exists in ultimate?

EXAMPLE: big kid takes out little kid, little kid calls a foul, big
kid contests it, parents go crazy and start yelling at the ref (that
just happens to be the big kid thats contesting the foul), no penalty
resulting in a do-over. NOW ENTER A NORMAL NON PLAYING REF: big kid
takes out little kid, ref T's him up or throws him out of the game,
big kid suffers harsh penalty/consequense and it deters him from
commiting hard fouls in the future, risk of injury is diminshed. i
mean, its like adding 2 + 2 for christs sake!
----------------------------------------------------



Once they
> reach that age, their ability to absorb an impact from a
> larger player and control their body in collisions is more
> developed than at younger ages.

that dosent mean that, void of official refs, players wouldnt take it
upon themselves to use more aggresive tacticts and cross the line more
often physically (with no tangible consequense to worry
about)......which is just ONE of the points behind the obvious reasons
that refs are an integral part of sports competitions
------------------------------------------------------------ --------



And I was happy to see my
> diminutive PG mix it up inside and rip the ball from those
> bigger players.

well sure, probably because there was a ref their to deter players
from being overly aggressive. but lets be for real here, refs do more
to keep the competition fair than just "diminishing the risk of
injury".
------------------------------------------------------------ -----
>
> So, yes, size/weight is a consideration in sports
> participation at the youth level, but generally once you
> reach HS, those considerations are no longer in effect.

so whats your point then???? that there should be refs (to help
diminish the risk of injury) at little league youth levels but not
hs.....or is it the other way around?
---------------------------------------------
>
> Also, to clarify this statement:
>
> "(1) In all competitive sports it is important to have
> officials who are experienced, mentally alert, fair and
> well-qualified to make immediate decisions and whose
> decisions must be final and binding."
>
> This sentence is defining the characteristics of officials
> and their decisions. It is NOT saying it is important to
> have officials.

WHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA???? you might want to re read that sentence as it
starts out saying "IN ALL COMPETITIVE SPORTS IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE
OFFICIALS....." THEN they add the charataristics those officials
should have.
-------------------------------------------------


It is saying that, where there are
> officials,

uhmmmm, i sure dont see anything where it says "WHERE THER ARE
OFFICIALS" (like its optional). COULD YOU PLEASE DIRECT ME TO WHERE
IT SAYS THAT?
------------------------------------------------



it is important that they are "experienced,
> mentally alert, fair and well-qualified to make immediate
> decisions."

so, let me get this straight......you are actually reading into this
that 1) officials are optional, and 2) that its ok for the players to
simultainiously act as officials? also, as per the "well qualified"
part, what is the process in which all the people that join the sport
of ultimate become "well qualified" player refs? cause i've never
herd of any training, testing or qualifying of ANY kind to play in
usau comp.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
>
> Regardless, not particularly important, but that document is
> very narrow in its scope and is not relevant to the
> discussion of whether ultimate should have officials or not.


WHHHHAAAAAAAA? it seems pretty darn susinct to me. i mean, how broad
does a statement that says what that says have to be?

and they arent distinguishing ultimate with that policy.....ITS FOR
ALL SPORTS......ultimate is a sport isnt it?
-------------------------------------------------------

> It IS relevant in that, where we have officials, these types
> of legal obligations/conditions will be applied and need to
> be considered.

i'm sure its irelevant to people that are spirit zealot kooks that see
some kind of theraputic benefit to that whole sotg aspect of
ultimate......but can you see how, to normal folk, its pure insanity?
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114898 is a reply to message #114428] Fri, 27 April 2012 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dannonjax
Messages: 120
Registered: February 2012
Senior Member
Interesting article on changes in age/weight restrictions.

http://athleticbusiness.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid= 843&zoneid=10

I know I have read about similar restrictions in other sports, but definitely not as widespread as in football. More a local/occasional thing. There are some dramatic examples:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=3553475

But yes, it is mostly optional/encouraged, but not required for most sports.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114908 is a reply to message #114898] Fri, 27 April 2012 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 27, 11:40 am, dan nonjax <dannon...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> Interesting article on changes in age/weight restrictions.

>
> http://athleticbusiness.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid= 843&zonei....

this artical dosent support your argument in the least......notice
that the author notes: "you dont ban someone from basketball for being
tall". also, it seemed the main theme of it was to actually ALLOW
heaverier less skilled players to play football even if they are over
the weight limmit. and i dont think anyone is unfamiliar with weight
restrictions in little league football

i tell ya what would be REALLY "intersting" would be to read some
articals from people like this about the idea of illiminating the
referee facilitation from some of these sports (little league, high
school, whatever) and see what their reaction would be, what parents
reaction would be and if they felt that the kids enforcing the rules
and managing the game themselves (a la how they play on the sand lot)
would effect their character. my guess is that most professionals,
parents and sports administrators would find it insane and even
stupid.
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I know I have read about similar restrictions in other
> sports,

ya mean in which they wanted to eliminate the restriction?
-----------------------------------------


but definitely not as widespread as in football.
> More a local/occasional thing. There are some dramatic
> examples:

no there arent......theres only one.......and you see the result
-------------------------
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=3553475

yea, this is a pile of horse shit. you dont actually agree that this
kid shouldnt be allowed to pitch, do you? of course, being the pc sz
you seem to be it wouldnt really surprise me if you did.
-------------------------------------
>
> But yes, it is mostly optional/encouraged,

optional/encouraged????? those seem to be opposing concepts to me. i
mean, its the opposing people that want to allow the option that are
encouraging "moving up" (at least in this pitchers case), isnt it?
---------------------------------------



but not required
> for most sports.

then how is it "mostly" encouraged.

also, you seem to be dodging/changing the meat of this debate which is
centered around the concept of refs "diminishing the risk of injury".
did you not like the example i provided in my post or is it that you
chose to remain cognatively disonant of it?
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114912 is a reply to message #114889] Fri, 27 April 2012 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dannonjax
Messages: 120
Registered: February 2012
Senior Member
thefan wrote on Fri, 27 April 2012 06:33
Quote:
"(1) In all competitive sports it is important to have officials who are experienced, mentally alert, fair and well-qualified to make immediate decisions and whose decisions must be final and binding."

This sentence is defining the characteristics of officials and their decisions. It is NOT saying it is important to have officials.


then:
Quote:
but that document is very narrow in its scope and is not relevant to the discussion of whether ultimate should have officials or not.


why? is ultimate not a competitive sport?


Not sure why you think that, but no, that is not why. It is because of the nature of the document.

The document we are looking at is a guide for officials to understand their liability as officials and place officials' in-game decisions in a legal context. The audience is officials who are already officiating in sports that use officials, the discussion is about liability and legal standing.

Given that the document is targeted at this audience, it does not make sense that they would be making a statement to promote officials being in games (to this audience, they are already there). Makes much more sense that they would be talking about the qualities of officials and their decisions.

Not really a document to look at for determining the benefits/advantages/neccessity of officials. The document has nothing to do with that, there is just one sentence that, if read in one of several possible interpretations, might mean that they think there should be officials in all competitive sports. That one sentence can also have different interpretations about that issue, but given that the document in question is about legal standing of decisions and liability, there is no reason to try and stretch/twist it into something it is not intended to be.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114914 is a reply to message #114912] Fri, 27 April 2012 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Apr 27, 1:40 pm, dan nonjax <dannon...@gmail.com> wrote:.
>
> Not sure why you think that, but no, that is not why. It is
> because of the nature of the document.
>
> The document we are looking at is a guide for officials to
> understand their liability as officials and place officials'
> in-game decisions in a legal context. The audience is
> officials who are already officiating in sports that use
> officials,

so the "player refs" that officiate ultimate should be exempt from
these qualifications?
---------------------------------------------




the discussion is about liability and legal
> standing.

i thought it was about "all competitive sports"......so, like kimmy
said, are you saying ultimate isnt a competitive sport?
--------------------------------------------------
>
> Given that the document is targeted at this audience, it
> does not make sense that they would be making a statement to
> promote officials being in games (to this audience, they are
> already there).

the way i look at it their "audience" is competitive sports. and even
ultimate has refs in their/your sport.....they just happen to be the
same people that are competing. so again, you seem to imply that they
are exempt from needing to be: experienced, mentally alert, fair and
> well-qualified to make immediate decisions
------------------------------------------------




Makes much more sense that they would be
> talking about the qualities of officials and their
> decisions.

the way i read it they are talking about ALLLLLLLL officials of
ALLLLLLLL competitive sports.
----------------------------------------------------
>
> Not really a document to look at for determining the
> benefits/advantages/neccessity of officials.

sure it is. why would you think it wasnt?
-----------------------------------------


The document
> has nothing to do with that, there is just one sentence
> that, if read in one of several possible interpretations,

i only see one interpretation that has two points......1) the need for
refs, and 2) their need to be qualified
-----------------------------------------------
> might mean that they think there should be officials in all
> competitive sports.

"might" my ass. if thats what they wanted to convey then they would
have used the wourd "might" in there somewhere
--------------------------------------------


That one sentence can also have
> different interpretations about that issue, but given that
> the document in question is about legal standing of
> decisions and liability, there is no reason to try and
> stretch/twist it into something it is not intended to be.

then why are you doing just that?
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114916 is a reply to message #114908] Fri, 27 April 2012 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dannonjax
Messages: 120
Registered: February 2012
Senior Member
And, as a general response to this thread in regards to safety.-

http://www.youthsportssafetyalliance.org/CallToAction.htm

The Youth Sports Safety Alliance Commits to:

•Ensure that youth athletes have access to health care professionals who are qualified to make assessments and decisions.

•Educate parents, athletes, coaches, teachers and others about the signs and symptoms of sports injuries and conditions (e.g., brain injury, heat illness and exertional sickling).

•Assure pre-participation exams before play begins and, where appropriate, conduct baseline testing.

•Ensure that sports equipment, uniforms, playing surfaces and environmental conditions are checked for safety and best conditions.

•Write to state legislators and members of Congress, expressing concerns.

•Insist that research into youth sports injuries and their effects be undertaken immediately and be supported by tax dollars.

•Support a national registry of sport-related catastrophic injuries and fatalities to improve safety and participation.

•Demand that appropriate emergency action plans and safety and medical protocols and procedures are in place at every sporting event and facility.

•Educate players and others that there's a difference between pain and injury, and work to eliminate the culture of "playing through pain" without assessment.

•Ensure that both general and sport-specific safety education be a priority for every administrator, coach, parent and player.

_________________________

From http://kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid_safe/outdoor/sports_sa fety.html#


Preventing Sports Injuries

You can help prevent your kids from being injured by following some simple guidelines:

Use of Proper Equipment

It's important for kids to use proper equipment and safety gear that is the correct size and fits well. For example, they should wear helmets for baseball, softball, bicycle riding, and hockey. They also should wear helmets while they're inline skating or riding scooters and skateboards.

For racquet sports and basketball, ask about any protective eyewear, like shatterproof goggles. Ask your child's coach about the appropriate helmets, shoes, mouth guards, athletic cups and supporters, and padding.

Protective equipment should be approved by the organizations that govern each of the sports. Hockey facemasks, for example, should be approved by the Hockey Equipment Certification Council (HECC) or the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). Bicycle helmets should have a safety certification sticker from the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC).

Also, all equipment should be properly maintained to ensure its effectiveness. In the United States, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) sets many of the standards for helmets, facemasks, and shin guards. In addition to meeting the NOSCAE standards, all equipment should be properly maintained to ensure its effectiveness over time.

Maintenance and Appropriateness of Playing Surfaces

Check that playing fields are not full of holes and ruts that might cause kids to fall or trip. Kids doing high-impact sports, like basketball and running, should do them on surfaces like tracks and wooden basketball courts, which can be more forgiving than surfaces like concrete.

Adequate Adult Supervision and Commitment to Safety

Any team sport or activity that kids participate in should be supervised by qualified adults. Select leagues and teams that have the same commitment to safety and injury prevention that you do.

The team coach should have training in first aid and CPR, and the coach's philosophy should promote players' well-being. A coach with a win-at-all-costs attitude may encourage kids to play through injury and may not foster good sportsmanship. Be sure that the coach enforces playing rules and requires that safety equipment be used at all times.

Additionally, make sure your kids are matched for sports according to their skill level, size, and physical and emotional maturity.

Proper Preparation

Just as you wouldn't send a child who can't swim to a swimming pool, it's important not to send kids to play a sport that they're unprepared to play. Make sure that your child knows how to play the sport before going out on the field.

Your child should be adequately prepared with warm-ups and training sessions before practices as well as before games. This will help ensure that your child has fun and reduce the chances of an injury.

In addition, kids should drink plenty of fluids and be allowed to rest during practices and games.

_____________________________

From http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/sportsaf.htm

Can youth sports injuries be prevented?

Most sports injuries can be prevented, even predicted! The first step in preventing sports injuries is finding out why sports injuries occur. Sports injuries may be caused by:

Individual risk factors (such as medical conditions)
Inadequate physical exams before participating (every child should get a sports-specific physical exam before each season) Find out what UM experts say about heart screening for young athletes.

Lack of pre-season conditioning
Lack of safety equipment, or poorly fitted, improper equipment
Lack of proper eye protection
Teaming up by age instead of size
Unsafe playing fields, or surfaces
Improper training or coaching, or lack of instruction
Fatigue
Not warming up, cooling down and stretching properly
Playing while injured
Stress and inappropriate pressure to win
Temperature
Poor nutrition or hydration
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114933 is a reply to message #114916] Fri, 27 April 2012 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
Sports injuries may be caused by: . . .

Teaming up by age instead of size . . .


a great idea in theory, but school sports are grouped by age because in general children of the same age are in the same school. that's just how it is.
Re: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN COLLEGE AND HS IDS START CALLING FOR THEIR COMP TO BE REFFED??? [message #114937 is a reply to message #114885] Fri, 27 April 2012 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> In youth sports, not sure the exact age but somewhere around
> 13ish (depends on the sport), size/weight and physical
> ability are matched.


---i DOUBT.....'physical ability' are matched.
size/weight...sure, in football and wrestling.

soccer BRAGS that size, height, weight, speed, quickness, fat, skinny,
tall, lankie, dumpie....DON'T matter.
ANYONE of ANY size can play and be good as long as you do the drills
right and hard.

and...soccer and basketball....and probably most any
sport...especially in schools...are by age or by grade.

my oldest daughter had a kid in her basketball league that NO kid
could match...size or ability wise....she was awesome...for 3rd grade.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In
> soccer, the biggest/most developed 8 year olds may play up
> with 9 or 10 year olds rather than putting the smallest 8
> year olds at risk. That is why youth sports are classified
> as Under-10, or Under-12.



---MAY.
they MAY play up.
it ain't because of their SIZE in soccer.
no giant kids who are horrible at soccer.....are 'playing up'
awesomely skilled UNchallenged kids.....'play up'

and that's not WHY the divisions are U12 and U14 and U16....
the reason WHY there are those classifications...is so that kids under
12 are in one div, no matter how much UNDER 12 they are.....etc.
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