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Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109826] Fri, 20 January 2012 13:07 Go to next message
Gray
Messages: 27
Registered: December 2009
Junior Member
This game was shot by a professional crew but I don't know if this ever aired on tv. The only 2 people that I know of in the video are Kenny Dobbyns (sp) and "Cribber". You can tell the sport has come a long way from the style of clothing to the style of play. Can anyone identify any of the other players in here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDEVkudJKoY
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109835 is a reply to message #109826] Sat, 21 January 2012 08:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rsdlogin
Messages: 103
Registered: November 2010
Location: Raleigh
Senior Member
very cool. Thank you!
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109837 is a reply to message #109835] Sat, 21 January 2012 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
california_encounter
Messages: 97
Registered: February 2010
Member
very cool! thanks for posting! things i noticed:
1) even in the early 90's, they frequently spiked the disc after scores.
2) discussions/arguments were MUCH shorter. it seems there was a call, and it was contested or not contested right away, and play resumed. i liked it
3) the announcer (the non ultimate player one) kept on talking about how great SOTG game was. great discussion about it at 10:30.
4) some interesting rule changes since:, it seems there was no brick. at one point a pull floated out of bounds in the endzone, it was taken in the middle of the goal line. Also pulls that were caught in the endzone were walked up to the goal line. I like the new rules better.
5) nice short shorts!
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109840 is a reply to message #109837] Sat, 21 January 2012 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Jan 21, 2:45 pm, california_encounter <jsi...@mednet.ucla.edu>
wrote:

> very cool! thanks for posting! things i noticed:
> 1) even in the early 90's, they frequently spiked the disc
> after scores.

i only noticed one......by lenny. pretty damn conservative (in
frequency and verosity) compared to todays spikes.
------------------------------------------------
> 2) discussions/arguments were MUCH shorter. it seems there
> was a call, and it was contested or not contested right
> away, and play resumed. i liked it

yea, those guys werent all about making it theraputic.......but it was
still obvious that there were quite a few bail out calls in which
players were "drawing fouls".
-----------------------------------------------
> 3) the announcer (the non ultimate player one) kept on
> talking about how great SOTG game was. great discussion
> about it at 10:30.

eh, it was alright. i think plugging sotg is somthing every ultimate
announcer has to do at some time during an ultimate game as how else
is he gonna explain that ther arent any refs. what a waste of air eh?
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------
> 4) some interesting rule changes since:, it seems there was
> no brick. at one point a pull floated out of bounds in the
> endzone, it was taken in the middle of the goal line. Also
> pulls that were caught in the endzone were walked up to the
> goal line. I like the new rules better.

that second one was an original toad/nua rule so your welcome. i dont
know who the genius was that invented the brick but he definietely
deserves credit as even after the "bring it to mid field" rule was
established (thats right, at one time if a pull went ob you had to
bring it in on the sideline) pullers would still intentionally pull ob
so defenses could set up.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109862 is a reply to message #109826] Sun, 22 January 2012 07:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Binky
Messages: 92
Registered: January 2011
Member
Thanks for this. I picked up with some of these players at Fool's Fest in Virginia a few years back. Incredible throws, and a knack for completely infuriating opposing teams. Very fun to play with.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109865 is a reply to message #109862] Sun, 22 January 2012 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbarkan52
Messages: 94
Registered: November 2008
Member
Great to see. New York was a team packed with superb all-stars, deeper
than any time of its time and in my opinion, the most potent team that
has ever played. Beating them was a great accomplishment for any team
as they never went down without a fight. Someone posted on the video
that it would have been fun to see a Revolver/NY match-up (assuming
time travel, whatever). Yes, it would have.

Just for fun, as I imagine it, NY would have had no problem matching
up with Revolver's height and speed combo, and their feisty nature in
a close game (which it would be be) would put Revolver's calm to the
test. Both so stingy on offense, Revolver and NY would be a low
turnover game decided by nasty team defense and converting under
pressure. I like Revolver's game and they have a fantastic winning
formula, but at least in a first game, they would get knocked down and
dragged out - NY by 2.

On Jan 22, 7:50 am, JB <johndborgme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for this.  I picked up with some of these players at
> Fool's Fest in Virginia a few years back. Incredible throws,
> and a knack for completely infuriating opposing teams. Very
> fun to play with.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109989 is a reply to message #109826] Tue, 24 January 2012 07:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 989
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
bump...
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #109996 is a reply to message #109865] Tue, 24 January 2012 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
homrbush
Messages: 429
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
dbarkan52 wrote on Sun, 22 January 2012 12:51
Great to see. New York was a team packed with superb all-stars, deeper
than any time of its time and in my opinion, the most potent team that
has ever played. Beating them was a great accomplishment for any team
as they never went down without a fight. Someone posted on the video
that it would have been fun to see a Revolver/NY match-up (assuming
time travel, whatever). Yes, it would have.

Just for fun, as I imagine it, NY would have had no problem matching
up with Revolver's height and speed combo, and their feisty nature in
a close game (which it would be be) would put Revolver's calm to the
test. Both so stingy on offense, Revolver and NY would be a low
turnover game decided by nasty team defense and converting under
pressure. I like Revolver's game and they have a fantastic winning
formula, but at least in a first game, they would get knocked down and
dragged out - NY by 2.

On Jan 22, 7:50 am, JB <johndborgme...@gmail.com[/email]> wrote:
> Thanks for this.  I picked up with some of these players at
> Fool's Fest in Virginia a few years back. Incredible throws,
> and a knack for completely infuriating opposing teams. Very
> fun to play with.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com


Out of curiosity, how would NYNY defend the horizontal stack, an offence they've never seen before?
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110062 is a reply to message #109996] Wed, 25 January 2012 06:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
seanc
Messages: 322
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Jan 24, 8:00 am, homrbush <homrb...@homerbush.net> wrote:
> dbarkan52 wrote on Sun, 22 January 2012 12:51
>
>
>
>
>
> > Great to see. New York was a team packed with superb
> > all-stars, deeper
> > than any time of its time and in my opinion, the most
> > potent team that
> > has ever played. Beating them was a great accomplishment
> > for any team
> > as they never went down without a fight. Someone posted
> > on the video
> > that it would have been fun to see a Revolver/NY
> > match-up (assuming
> > time travel, whatever). Yes, it would have.
>
> > Just for fun, as I imagine it, NY would have had no
> > problem matching
> > up with Revolver's height and speed combo, and their
> > feisty nature in
> > a close game (which it would be be) would put Revolver's
> > calm to the
> > test. Both so stingy on offense, Revolver and NY would
> > be a low
> > turnover game decided by nasty team defense and
> > converting under
> > pressure. I like Revolver's game and they have a
> > fantastic winning
> > formula, but at least in a first game, they would get
> > knocked down and
> > dragged out - NY by 2.
>
> > On Jan 22, 7:50 am, JB
> > <johndborgme...@gmail.com[/email]> wrote:
> > > Thanks for this.  I picked up with some of these
> > > players at
> > > Fool's Fest in Virginia a few years back. Incredible
> > > throws,
> > > and a knack for completely infuriating opposing
> > > teams. Very
> > > fun to play with.
> > > --
> > > Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
>
> Out of curiosity, how would NYNY defend the horizontal
> stack, an offence they've never seen before?
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

or the various junk defenses, or beau climbing a ladder in the endzone
-- not to say that nyny wasn't athletic, just that i've never seen
that era of ultimate player hit the stratosphere to the same extent as
this current crop of highlight makers. i think ny's intensity,
consistency, and physical play would make the game a challenging one
for revolver, but i'm also in the camp of believers that the game is
evolving, and that the improvements put the odds in favor of san
francisco.

sean

sean
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110066 is a reply to message #109865] Wed, 25 January 2012 06:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EuhNGroups
Messages: 1020
Registered: August 2011
Senior Member
Just for fun, as I imagine it, NY would have had no problem matching
up with Revolver's height and speed combo, and their feisty nature in
a close game (which it would be be) would put Revolver's calm to the
test. Both so stingy on offense, Revolver and NY would be a low
turnover game decided by nasty team defense and converting under
pressure. I like Revolver's game and they have a fantastic winning
formula, but at least in a first game, they would get knocked down and
dragged out - NY by 2.



15-1 Revolver. And that's only beacause they would be laughing at the outfits on the lone point.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110078 is a reply to message #110062] Wed, 25 January 2012 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbarkan52
Messages: 94
Registered: November 2008
Member
FYI, NY helped invent junk and combat it for years, had brilliant
strategists that adjusted instantly to new D and O structures, and
would have had little difficulty with modern day strategies, which,
let's face it, are just not that sophisticated.

More importantly, the level of athleticism has not improved
significantly in 20 years, sad to say, though what has changed is
there are MORE talented players per team, just not better ones, in my
opinion. If you want to compare to Beau... Cribber jumped higher than
him (plus threw much better and played more athletic D). Revolver has
no one that was as nasty or intimidating as Jonny Gewirtz on defense.
Bottom line was NY simply did have athletes and throwers of the same
Caliber as Taylor, Watson, Cahill, Wiseman, etc (Dobyns, Blau, Skip
Kuhn, Demann, KIng)...

I still like my chances with NY, as they had a will and way to win
that was true "lightening in a bottle" as KD described it.

More interesting to me is if you step up a few thousand feet from this
conversation and look at the athletic level of our sport's best
athletes, I would say this - until we see Ultimate filled with Div 1
athletes who could otherwise be playing hoops, soccer or football, the
athletic level will stay pretty much the same over the next 20 years.
Not that it's bad or unexciting right now. It's great, but let's not
pretend true "Elite" athletes are populating our sport, even though we
call them by that name.






On Jan 25, 6:23 am, seanc <discj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 8:00 am, homrbush <homrb...@homerbush.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > dbarkan52 wrote on Sun, 22 January 2012 12:51
>
> > > Great to see. New York was a team packed with superb
> > > all-stars, deeper
> > > than any time of its time and in my opinion, the most
> > > potent team that
> > > has ever played. Beating them was a great accomplishment
> > > for any team
> > > as they never went down without a fight. Someone posted
> > > on the video
> > > that it would have been fun to see a Revolver/NY
> > > match-up (assuming
> > > time travel, whatever). Yes, it would have.
>
> > > Just for fun, as I imagine it, NY would have had no
> > > problem matching
> > > up with Revolver's height and speed combo, and their
> > > feisty nature in
> > > a close game (which it would be be) would put Revolver's
> > > calm to the
> > > test. Both so stingy on offense, Revolver and NY would
> > > be a low
> > > turnover game decided by nasty team defense and
> > > converting under
> > > pressure. I like Revolver's game and they have a
> > > fantastic winning
> > > formula, but at least in a first game, they would get
> > > knocked down and
> > > dragged out - NY by 2.
>
> > > On Jan 22, 7:50 am, JB
> > > <johndborgme...@gmail.com[/email]> wrote:
> > > > Thanks for this.  I picked up with some of these
> > > > players at
> > > > Fool's Fest in Virginia a few years back. Incredible
> > > > throws,
> > > > and a knack for completely infuriating opposing
> > > > teams. Very
> > > > fun to play with.
> > > > --
> > > > Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
>
> > Out of curiosity, how would NYNY defend the horizontal
> > stack, an offence they've never seen before?
> > --



> > Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
>
> or the various junk defenses, or beau climbing a ladder in the endzone
> -- not to say that nyny wasn't athletic, just that i've never seen
> that era of ultimate player hit the stratosphere to the same extent as
> this current crop of highlight makers.  i think ny's intensity,
> consistency, and physical play would make the game a challenging one
> for revolver, but i'm also in the camp of believers that the game is
> evolving, and that the improvements put the odds in favor of san
> francisco.
>
> sean
>
> sean
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110092 is a reply to message #110078] Wed, 25 January 2012 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corley
Messages: 43
Registered: January 2009
Member
In re: athleticism levels, this comes out every time there's one of these discussions. Barkan, you may be right that ultimate is still not recruiting DI-quality athletes. But let's remember that athleticism isn't just a number you're born with--it's also the conditioning and fitness commitments you make both individually and as a team. That's where I think modern teams would in general outperform historical teams--my understanding (and I could easily be wrong) is that the sophistication and intensity of elite-team conditioning and strength programs is much higher now than it once was. So even if it's the same guys coming in the door it stands to reason that they'd start the season as better athletes.

What does this mean about Revolver-NYNY? Very little--everyone seems to agree both teams are outliers from the contemporary averages, and it's hard to gauge between outliers. But I'd take the nationals-average team in 2011 over the nationals-average team in 199x any day of the week--and that leads me to say that if I had to pick I'd probably have revolver over NY.

Shorter version of the above: think the speed of the game is faster now, maybe more due to conditioning techniques than genotypes. Would favor Revolver.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110098 is a reply to message #110078] Wed, 25 January 2012 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ultimate7
Messages: 154
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Jan 25, 10:25 am, barkan <dbarka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> More importantly, the level of athleticism has not improved
> significantly in 20 years,

This is not true. In the last 10 years the game has gotten faster,
considerably. Everyone that plays on elite club teams is fast now.
I'm not saying that this guarantees Revolver beats NYNY, but the depth
of athleticism is obvious.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110106 is a reply to message #110092] Wed, 25 January 2012 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
druse77
Messages: 31
Registered: October 2010
Member
To Corley's point, ie "my understanding (and I could easily be wrong) is that the sophistication and intensity of elite-team conditioning and strength programs is much higher now than it once was", I would say not in this case. NYNY apparently practiced up to 5 times a week during certain times of the season. That's unheard of today. So I don't think you're going to win any argument that any team today has a greater intensity than NYNY, in any facet of the game.

Yes it's hard to compare teams and athletes across eras but the accomplishments of teams like NYNY and DoG definitely go beyond mere athleticism. I think its obvious that the records of both of those teams speak not just to their athletic ability but even more to their mastery of the mental aspect of the game. So even if you think Revolver has more athleticism, you'd have to give the edge to a team like NYNY in the mental game...
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110107 is a reply to message #110106] Wed, 25 January 2012 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbarkan52
Messages: 94
Registered: November 2008
Member
New York practices were notorious for being completely physically and
emotionally exhausting - night after night. They would show up at
tournaments and not only be in unbelievable physical shape from brutal
work-outs, but it felt like they'd been let out of jail and just
wanted to release all that pent-up emotional angst from fighting with
each other on their competition. Maybe it was not "sophisticated", but
it was very effective.


On Jan 25, 2:15 pm, Drew <drus...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> To Corley's point, ie "my understanding (and I could easily
> be wrong) is that the sophistication and intensity of
> elite-team conditioning and strength programs is much higher
> now than it once was", I would say not in this case. NYNY
> apparently practiced up to 5 times a week during certain
> times of the season. That's unheard of today. So I don't
> think you're going to win any argument that any team today
> has a greater intensity than NYNY, in any facet of the game.
>
> Yes it's hard to compare teams and athletes across eras but
> the accomplishments of teams like NYNY and DoG definitely go
> beyond mere athleticism. I think its obvious that the
> records of both of those teams speak not just to their
> athletic ability but even more to their mastery of the
> mental aspect of the game. So even if you think Revolver has
> more athleticism, you'd have to give the edge to a team like
> NYNY in the mental game...
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110124 is a reply to message #110107] Wed, 25 January 2012 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corley
Messages: 43
Registered: January 2009
Member
Hmm. Thanks for taking the time to educate, guys. NYNY definitely seem the far fitter team in the game above.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110145 is a reply to message #110124] Thu, 26 January 2012 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Douglas T Lilley
Messages: 674
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Jan 26, 1:40 am, Corley <corleyamil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmm. Thanks for taking the time to educate, guys. NYNY
> definitely seem the far fitter team in the game above.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

For me, that was painful to watch, the foul calling after you'd been
beaten was sort of sad and hopefully a relic of bygone days and no
reasonable non-ultimate sports fan could have watched it for more than
10-15 minutes without turning away in disgust at these prima donnas
shouting at each other while people are waiting to watch sports. If
it's worse than that now, I'm glad I don't see much high level
Ultimate anymore.
I know some of the guys, played against Mooney, with/against Dobyns
(both), King (the best NYNYer IMO), some of the older NYNYers, Mata
Phillips and his brother Chris were teamates, all good guys but for
better or for worse, the type of foul calling in that game is more or
less responsible for observers/refs movement today-people proved they
would cheat to gain advantage and can't be trusted, maybe some of them
ended up on Wall St. in 2006.
That said, I enjoyed the action video, I thought the camera angles
were great with the 3 or 4 cameras they had, they captured a lot of
the passing close up..
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110193 is a reply to message #109826] Fri, 27 January 2012 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lukesmith
Messages: 28
Registered: December 2009
Junior Member
I pasted this from a similar discussion on win the fields.

To weigh in on the discussion, the thought that 'the grandparents just didn't play as well as we do now' is well, to be kind, a crock -- on a lot of levels.

Prior to 1991, they were playing with the Whamo 80e and older. Deeper dish, harder to hyzer (inside out). For comparison, go throw with one of those Innovas. Makes anyone better. I don't know what they are playing with in 1991 at worlds. That is the transition year.

The whole 'we're all better now' comes up every couple years. Unfortunately, while the short shorts and cotton may not be cool now (and Cork's 'shirt longer than shorts' look is a particularly unfortunate choice) these guys could play. Period. If you are adamant that you know better, then fine. But, I guess I'd say, ask Bart how good Biscuit was, and ask Biscuit how good Cribber was. Or if you live on the east coast, ask George how good Fortunat was, and ask him how good Seeger was.

You don't have to ask Jim or Alex how good they were. They'll be the first one to tell you.

Zing.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110221 is a reply to message #110193] Sat, 28 January 2012 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EuhNGroups
Messages: 1020
Registered: August 2011
Senior Member
lukesmith wrote on Fri, 27 January 2012 23:11
I pasted this from a similar discussion on win the fields.

To weigh in on the discussion, the thought that 'the grandparents just didn't play as well as we do now' is well, to be kind, a crock -- on a lot of levels.

Prior to 1991, they were playing with the Whamo 80e and older. Deeper dish, harder to hyzer (inside out). For comparison, go throw with one of those Innovas. Makes anyone better. I don't know what they are playing with in 1991 at worlds. That is the transition year.

The whole 'we're all better now' comes up every couple years. Unfortunately, while the short shorts and cotton may not be cool now (and Cork's 'shirt longer than shorts' look is a particularly unfortunate choice) these guys could play. Period. If you are adamant that you know better, then fine. But, I guess I'd say, ask Bart how good Biscuit was, and ask Biscuit how good Cribber was. Or if you live on the east coast, ask George how good Fortunat was, and ask him how good Seeger was.

You don't have to ask Jim or Alex how good they were. They'll be the first one to tell you.

Zing.


No need to ask...the few videos speak by themselves.
Players were less fit, had less skills with the disc and strategies were more basic.

Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110226 is a reply to message #110221] Sat, 28 January 2012 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
druse77
Messages: 31
Registered: October 2010
Member
wow, EuhnGroups, congrats on your "Dipshit Statement of the Week on RSD" award, surprisingly snapping Toad Leber's seemingly unbeatable streak of 118 weeks (although his hold on the record is debatable since he only says the same thing over and over, albeit with different, innovative spelling choices).

Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110230 is a reply to message #110221] Sun, 29 January 2012 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> No need to ask...the few videos speak by themselves.
> Players were less fit, had less skills with the disc  and
> strategies were more basic.
~~~~~~

--more basic?.......why, because they didn't play the 'spread' offense
so that only 2 or 3 of their players were allowed to throw forward
passes?
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110235 is a reply to message #110226] Sun, 29 January 2012 05:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Jan 29, 1:05 am, Drew <drus...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> wow, EuhnGroups, congrats on your "Dipshit Statement of the
> Week on RSD" award, surprisingly snapping Toad Leber's
> seemingly unbeatable streak of 118 weeks (although his hold
> on the record is debatable since he only says the same thing
> over and over, albeit with different, innovative spelling
> choices).

so you are saying that ME saying "a sport should have refs" is a
dipshit thing to say?
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110264 is a reply to message #110235] Sun, 29 January 2012 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corley
Messages: 43
Registered: January 2009
Member
lukesmith,

It's pretty clear that you're a much more accomplished frisbee player than I am, and that you have a far higher probability, generally, of knowing what you're talking about in discussions like this. But in this case the cut-and-paste shows a little bit--you're debunking an argument that I don't think anyone here has actually made. No one (except Euh, who posted after you) is seriously claiming that 'the grandparents' individually were bad players, or couldn't hack it in today's game, or anything like that.

The argument, instead, is that vintage TEAMS would have a difficult time with modern TEAMS. To wit:

I've just come from watching the first 10 points of this game and of the Revolver-Ironside game on the UPA website. Although it's a small sample, it'd seem on its face to be a pretty apt comparison: a championship game won by the teams we're comparing. The opposition is even from Boston in both cases!

In the NYNY-Big Brother matchup, the first 10 points ended 7-3 NY (BB pulled). NY had 10 offensive possessions and scored on 7 of them. Their 3 non-conversions were all unforced: an overthrown swing that landed out of bounds, an under near the sideline that curved out (and was nearly saved), and a third throw to the sideline which was actually borderline--the Boston defender got a hand on it but it looked (and poor, blurry, could-be-wrong camera angles play a part here) like both players landed at least a yard or two out of bounds and it would've been out regardless of the d. So either 3 unforced or 2-and-1.

Big Brother, on the other hand, had 9 offensive possessions and scored 3. There were two big fat NY Ds(one on a hammer and one where the guy threw a high-release right into Dobyn's poach) and four unforced turns (one drop, an overthrown huck, a throw out of bounds in the endzone, and what looked a handler miscommunication on their own goal line).

In Revolver/Ironside, the first ten points end 6-4 Revolver (Ironside pulled). Each team had 8 possessions. Revolver scored 6, with 1 handblock and one throwaway. Ironside scored 4, was D'ed 3 times (twice on deep shots and once on a layout handblock) and took one stall (not sure whether to count this as forced or unforced).

So what's to make of all this? I don't think you can make a whole lot out of 6/8 vs 7/10 as Revolver's scoring rate vs NY's. What I'd emphasize instead is the much lower rate of giveaways in the modern game. In the modern game, 10 goals meant 16 possessions and just a single solitary throwaway (and one stall). In the older game, 10 goals meant 19 possessions--but a massive 7 OB, long, dropped, miscommunicated, or otherwise given away throws. That's fairly stark. Even starker, maybe, is the ratio of unforced to forced turnovers. In the modern game, there's one unforced turn for every four Ds. In the earlier, there's seven unforced turns to just two 'earned.'

Now there's admittedly a lot of issues with this kind of analysis. The sample size is pretty darn small and I'd bet selecting a different set of points would give different results. You could also argue--and I'm sure people will--that New York's famed 'psychological edge' and 'high-pressure' game led BB into making a lot of difficult throws, and deserves some credit for all those OB turnovers. There's probably some truth to that, and more sophisticated frisbee-stats guys will probably take issue with my categories.

But still: 1:4, 7:2. That's .25 giveaways per D in the modern game, and 3.5 giveaways per D in the clip at top. If the same ratio held today, the first ten points of Revolver-Ironside would have seen 14 giveaways. Fourteen!

It's actually a bit weird--I was expecting for the lesson of the comparison to be that 'modern defense is much tighter'--and that certainly does seem true. There's just two Ds in the first ten points of NY/BB and 4 in the first ten of Rev/Ironside. (Though I didn't keep careful count, the number of attempted layout blocks is MUCH higher in the modern game--there's one early point where Revolver is hitting the ground in vain on practically every throw.)What I was surprised to find is how much tighter the offenses are--even though there's twice as many Ds in the modern game (4/2), there's 1/7 the number of throwaways (1/7).

All of this isn't to say--and I don't think--that New York wasn't a great team, or a group of fierce competitors, or a fearsome, dominant frisbee machine. But the numbers suggest--even without appealing to arguments about athleticism, or marks, or speed-of-disc movement, or how closely defenders play their men--that you simply have to work much harder to get the disc these days. At the top of the club game you certainly won't encounter a team that throws it away more often than they score.

I think the soccer people have a pretty good handle on this, incidentally. Pele's generally agreed to be one of the two or three greatest players ever--so are Garrincha etc. of the Brazil 1972 squad, which is hailed rightly as one of the best of all time. Yet no one seriously argues that they'd be competitive with today's top international or (especially) club sides. The way the game is played has changed too much--modern players have much less time on the ball and defenses are far better organized. I'd say a similar (if less extreme) thing about New York New York. Many great players on both sides of the disc. Dobyns is clearly a star, and they're utterly dominant in this game and their era. They deserve their place in history and for my money what they accomplished is as impressive as anything that's been accomplished since. With a year or two to prepare I think they'd probably be competitive with anybody. But if the team from this clip found themselves transported to Halloween weekend of 2011, and saw Revolver across from them? It's hard for me to envision anything other than a Revolver win, probably by a good few breaks.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110294 is a reply to message #110264] Mon, 30 January 2012 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jt
Messages: 63
Registered: February 2009
Member
On Jan 30, 1:20 am, Corley <corleyamil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

Not sure when the discraft started being used but the difference in
discs was huge. Can't tell what they were using in this game but if
it was the 80, then i those TO's are easily understandable.

jt
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110296 is a reply to message #110264] Mon, 30 January 2012 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbarkan52
Messages: 94
Registered: November 2008
Member
Nice analysis. I think this argument will be easier to have with
future comparisons, as stats become more prevalent. I like the way you
are thinking about it alot.

So, I think it's mostly a case of "you had to be there". What some of
us know, Corley, that you can't possibly know, is that NY would
typically play a semi or final game with 2-3 turnovers. That their
best players were as fast, athletic, and skilled as today's best,
blowing the competition and crowds way with breathless displays of
individual and team performance. That they had the best mental game in
the history of the sport. We saw them and we see the present day's
best, and in my case, I am waiting anxiously for the next level, and
it is nowhere in sight.



On Jan 29, 10:20 pm, Corley <corleyamil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> lukesmith,
>
> It's pretty clear that you're a much more accomplished
> frisbee player than I am, and that you have a far higher
> probability, generally, of knowing what you're talking about
> in discussions like this. But in this case the cut-and-paste
> shows a little bit--you're debunking an argument that I
> don't think anyone here has actually made. No one (except
> Euh, who posted after you) is seriously claiming that 'the
> grandparents' individually were bad players, or couldn't
> hack it in today's game, or anything like that.
>
> The argument, instead, is that vintage TEAMS would have a
> difficult time with modern TEAMS. To wit:
>
> I've just come from watching the first 10 points of this
> game and of thehttp://www.usaultimate.org/news/revolver-vs-ironside--ope n-final--oct...
> game on the UPA website. Although it's a small sample, it'd
> seem on its face to be a pretty apt comparison: a
> championship game won by the teams we're comparing. The
> opposition is even from Boston in both cases!
>
> In the NYNY-Big Brother matchup, the first 10 points ended
> 7-3 NY (BB pulled). NY had 10 offensive possessions and
> scored on 7 of them. Their 3 non-conversions were all
> unforced: an overthrown swing that landed out of bounds, an
> under near the sideline that curved out (and was nearly
> saved), and a third throw to the sideline which was actually
> borderline--the Boston defender got a hand on it but it
> looked (and poor, blurry, could-be-wrong camera angles play
> a part here) like both players landed at least a yard or two
> out of bounds and it would've been out regardless of the d.
> So either 3 unforced or 2-and-1.
>
> Big Brother,  on the other hand, had 9 offensive possessions
> and scored 3. There were two big fat NY Ds(one on a hammer
> and one where the guy threw a high-release right into
> Dobyn's poach) and four unforced turns (one drop, an
> overthrown huck, a throw out of bounds in the endzone, and
> what looked a handler miscommunication on their own goal
> line).
>
> In Revolver/Ironside, the first ten points end 6-4 Revolver
> (Ironside pulled). Each team had 8 possessions. Revolver
> scored 6, with 1 handblock and one throwaway. Ironside
> scored 4, was D'ed 3 times (twice on deep shots and once on
> a layout handblock) and took one stall (not sure whether to
> count this as forced or unforced).
>
> So what's to make of all this? I don't think you can make a
> whole lot out of 6/8 vs 7/10 as Revolver's scoring rate vs
> NY's. What I'd emphasize instead is the much lower rate of
> giveaways in the modern game. In the modern game, 10 goals
> meant 16 possessions and just a single solitary throwaway
> (and one stall). In the older game, 10 goals meant 19
> possessions--but a massive 7 OB, long, dropped,
> miscommunicated, or otherwise given away throws. That's
> fairly stark. Even starker, maybe, is the ratio of unforced
> to forced turnovers. In the modern game, there's one
> unforced turn for every four Ds. In the earlier, there's
> seven unforced turns to just two 'earned.'
>
> Now there's admittedly a lot of issues with this kind of
> analysis. The sample size is pretty darn small and I'd bet
> selecting a different set of points would give different
> results. You could also argue--and I'm sure people
> will--that New York's famed 'psychological edge' and
> 'high-pressure' game led BB into making a lot of difficult
> throws, and deserves some credit for all those OB turnovers.
> There's probably some truth to that, and more sophisticated
> frisbee-stats guys will probably take issue with my
> categories.
>
> But still: 1:4, 7:2. That's .25 giveaways per D in the
> modern game, and 3.5 giveaways per D in the clip at top. If
> the same ratio held today, the first ten points of
> Revolver-Ironside would have seen 14 giveaways. Fourteen!
>
> It's actually a bit weird--I was expecting for the lesson of
> the comparison to be that 'modern defense is much
> tighter'--and that certainly does seem true. There's just
> two Ds in the first ten points of NY/BB and 4 in the first
> ten of Rev/Ironside. (Though I didn't keep careful count,
> the number of attempted layout blocks is MUCH higher in the
> modern game--there's one early point where Revolver is
> hitting the ground in vain on practically every throw.)What
> I was surprised to find is how much tighter the offenses
> are--even though there's twice as many Ds in the modern game
> (4/2), there's 1/7 the number of throwaways (1/7).
>
> All of this isn't to say--and I don't think--that New York
> wasn't a great team, or a group of fierce competitors, or a
> fearsome, dominant frisbee machine. But the numbers
> suggest--even without appealing to arguments about
> athleticism, or marks, or speed-of-disc movement, or how
> closely defenders play their men--that you simply have to
> work much harder to get the disc these days. At the top of
> the club game you certainly won't encounter a team that
> throws it away more often than they score.
>
> I think the soccer people have a pretty good handle on this,
> incidentally. Pele's generally agreed to be one of the two
> or three greatest players ever--so are Garrincha etc. of the
> Brazil 1972 squad, which is hailed rightly as one of the
> best of all time. Yet no one seriously argues that they'd be
> competitive with today's top international or (especially)
> club sides. The way the game is played has changed too
> much--modern players have much less time on the ball and
> defenses are far better organized. I'd say a similar (if
> less extreme) thing about New York New York. Many great
> players on both sides of the disc. Dobyns is clearly a star,
> and they're utterly dominant in this game and their era.
> They deserve their place in history and for my money what
> they accomplished is as impressive as anything that's been
> accomplished since. With a year or two to prepare I think
> they'd probably be competitive with anybody. But if the team
> from this clip found themselves transported to Halloween
> weekend of 2011, and saw Revolver across from them? It's
> hard for me to envision anything other than a Revolver win,
> probably by a good few breaks.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110301 is a reply to message #110294] Mon, 30 January 2012 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corley
Messages: 43
Registered: January 2009
Member
The evidence for the 'different disc' argument actually does seem to be pretty strong. I didn't keep careful track, but I'm given to understand that the biggest difference the disc makes is 'more difficult i/o throws.' And there's very few i/os on display in NY/BB. You see a few of the wacky 'o/i under break,' notably by NY on the first (?) point, but very few i/o. One of NY's unforced turns is on an attempted i/o break that ends up looking like--well--mine, sailing high and either out or into a D. (may have been called back, I can't recall just now)

Anyways, think the argument's pretty reasonable. Not sure how--or if it's even possible--to account for this in a discussion like this. Do we have any footage of ny ny from the ultra-star era?



Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110383 is a reply to message #110226] Tue, 31 January 2012 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EuhNGroups
Messages: 1020
Registered: August 2011
Senior Member
druse77 wrote on Sat, 28 January 2012 22:04
wow, EuhnGroups, congrats on your "Dipshit Statement of the Week on RSD" award, surprisingly snapping Toad Leber's seemingly unbeatable streak of 118 weeks (although his hold on the record is debatable since he only says the same thing over and over, albeit with different, innovative spelling choices).



Name one single professional sport that has not evolved drastically in the last 20-30 years

Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110426 is a reply to message #110383] Tue, 31 January 2012 22:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lukesmith
Messages: 28
Registered: December 2009
Junior Member
nba basketball.
honestly, do you think that either of last years finalist hangs with the celtics or lakers of the mid 80's? to be fair, some of that is due to talent dilution due to expansion. but, both of those teams started 4 top 100 players.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110434 is a reply to message #110426] Wed, 01 February 2012 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Luke,

Yes- even though you are pitting them against a pair of teams competing in their second NBA finals ever, the series would be close for at least two reasons.

1. The substantial gains we have made in player longevity, recovery time, and training for peak performance that we have made in the last couple of decades. If we pick a random 'vintage' from the decade

2. The strategy, scouting and tactics (on both the offensive and defensive side of the ball, but especially D), are also far more advanced.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2009-05-13-vid eo-data-analysis_N.htm

NBA TEAMS are bigger, faster, and smarter (esp. on D) than their colleagues from 25 years ago. So are today's ultimate players. And in our young sport, two extra decades of polish, development, and game tape can make a huge difference. Especially on defense. Help defense is better. Zone/Junk defenses are more varied and confusing. Marks are MUCH better.

Revolver (and all other elite teams) are built on the shoulders of elite teams from the generation before. It's not fair to pit 1991 NYNY against today's Revolver because of the debt Revolver 2011 owes NYNY and teams like them.

But Revolver would win, possibly by a lot. And if 2031's champion can't neutralize today's Revolver, I will be disappointed.

Ben

P.S. A side note: I believe a team could be considered 'the greatest ever' and yet not beat today's champion. They can and should be measured against the success they had against their contemporaries.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110436 is a reply to message #110434] Wed, 01 February 2012 05:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbarkan52
Messages: 94
Registered: November 2008
Member
Ben, did you play against NY? Did you study them over time? I wish you
were right but you are not. LIke I said, until we get athletes from
the next level of elite athleticism, the difference between teams the
best from 1992 and 2012 will be negligible. Team training is a nice
advantage, but so is collective mental fortitude. In the end though,
it's all about genetics, and Ultimate is not getting the elite
specimens, not yet.

On Feb 1, 4:50 am, Slade <bslad...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Luke,
>
> Yes- even though you are pitting them against a pair of
> teams competing in their second NBA finals ever, the series
> would be close for at least two reasons.
>
> 1. The substantial gains we have made in player longevity,
> recovery time, and training for peak performance that we
> have made in the last couple of decades. If we pick a random
> 'vintage' from the decade
>
> 2. The strategy, scouting and tactics (on both the offensive
> and defensive side of the ball, but especially D), are also
> far more advanced.
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2009-05-13-vid eo-data-a...
>
> NBA TEAMS are bigger, faster, and smarter (esp. on D) than
> their colleagues from 25 years ago. So are today's ultimate
> players. And in our young sport, two extra decades of
> polish, development, and game tape can make a huge
> difference. Especially on defense.  Help defense is better.
> Zone/Junk defenses are more varied and confusing. Marks are
> MUCH better.
>
> Revolver (and all other elite teams) are built on the
> shoulders of elite teams from the generation before. It's
> not fair to pit 1991 NYNY against today's Revolver because
> of the debt Revolver 2011 owes NYNY and teams like them.
>
> But Revolver would win, possibly by a lot. And if 2031's
> champion  can't neutralize today's Revolver, I will be
> disappointed.
>
> Ben
>
> P.S. A side note: I believe a team could be considered 'the
> greatest ever' and yet not beat today's champion. They can
> and should be measured against the success they had against
> their contemporaries.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110437 is a reply to message #110434] Wed, 01 February 2012 07:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Danny,

You are right- my information is limited. I did not play against them, and what I have seen was gleaned from available video footage. Perhaps ultimate is different from other sports, and we have been treading water for the last couple of decades when it comes to player talent, strategy, and ability.

But through my eyes, I've seen the speed, complexity, and depth of college and club teams increase steadily over the last 9 years.

More players can do more things both with and without the disc, which has led to better ultimate teams at the elite (and every other) level.

I am unabashedly optimistic that the team performance required to win a championship will be set even higher over the next decade.

Ben
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110438 is a reply to message #110436] Wed, 01 February 2012 07:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
druse77
Messages: 31
Registered: October 2010
Member
I think perhaps the funniest, strangest and dumbest line of argument that keeps being promoted in this thread is the "Zone/Junk defenses are more varied and confusing" and that "strategies were more basic."

Anyone proffering this (inane) thesis should feel free to elaborate and please tell us what "new" zone or junk defenses have been developed over the last ten, fifteen, twenty years? And while we're at it, please elaborate on the new advanced forms of offense that have been spawned.

(Second dumbest line: "Marks are MUCH better.")

Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110488 is a reply to message #110438] Thu, 02 February 2012 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
korians1
Messages: 219
Registered: February 2010
Location: 402
Senior Member
druse77 wrote on Wed, 01 February 2012 09:37
Anyone proffering this (inane) thesis should feel free to elaborate and please tell us what "new" zone or junk defenses have been developed over the last ten, fifteen, twenty years?

Not supporting the thesis new defenses are better, but at High Tide last year we had absolutely no answer for one player on the opposing team who ran faster, jumped higher, and out performed everyone on our team. Their offense ran through him and we could not slow him down.

So we made up a new defensive strategy focused on him. It was a basic junk zone D but we had one guy following him the entire time always on his hip. Not only did this strategy help us defeat this team (twice) BUT they didn't figure out our scheme until late in our SECOND matchup. by then it was too late.

Has anyone else needed drastic schemes to win games? I think we've tried the same thing on a different team and it failed miserably...


----------------------------------------------
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9gFT1mEfZ8
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110575 is a reply to message #109826] Mon, 06 February 2012 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 989
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
bump
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110580 is a reply to message #110575] Mon, 06 February 2012 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Druse77,

How have you seen the game change over the last 20+ years? If you're still active in the game, you probably have a better perspective than most about how it has evolved. I'm a bit hesitant to try to provide specific examples, because I can't verify for sure that they were not already in use in 1991. Perhaps there are parallels to football (where new defenses/offenses are dredged up and recycled with a twist).

Two examples on offense (as I understand it) is that the horizontal stack offense was less common / brand new and the two handler Condor zone O was not in common use yet.

Defensively, I believe that flat marks, with defenders sagging off of handlers, is more common now. 4-man trapping cup variations are seen more often in the women's game, but are certainly present in the men's game as well. I haven't seen a reference to gradient/transitional marks in any 80s/early 90s material I've read. Clam defenses and other man/zone hybrids were around by 1996, but I'm not sure if NYNY had seen much of them in 1991.
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110581 is a reply to message #110575] Mon, 06 February 2012 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Druse77, do you think any of these things would help the best teams become better? Might any of these lead to more advanced tactics, better marking/defending/throwing technique, new innovations, or appropriation and improvement on old ideas?

Some things that are more common in 2012 than 1991:

-Video of elite games for scouting/technique/strategy lessons.

-Strategy articles and discussions (e.g. The Huddle).

-Players that began playing organized ultimate in high school or earlier (e.g. 25 y.o players with ten years of experience).

-Elite College ultimate, with players gaining considerable experience from the structure of regional and national college competition.

-Deeper rosters, in terms of both skill and numbers, giving people more rest as needed and ensuring that the ability 'replacement-level' player if a starter gets injured is closer to the starter's.

-Coaches with elite playing experience (either for the team itself, or for the players on the team who have benefited from it in the past).

-More 'institutional knowledge' about what has worked and not worked in the past within the ultimate community.

-A substantially larger pool of club players from which to select the best for elite teams.

-Greater parity amongst elite teams, forcing 'the best' to play close games more often throughout the year (and benefit from that experience).

-Better international competition, bringing new styles which the best in the US can learn from.

-Improved tryout processes, making it more likely that the best players will actually be selected for elite teams.

-An increase in 'real wealth' in the U.S., giving many more people the freedom to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars training and traveling each year?

-An increased emphasis on sports and athletics within the culture, especially youth athletics? And a corresponding meteroric rise in people playing organized sports into and beyond college?
Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110582 is a reply to message #109826] Mon, 06 February 2012 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 989
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
For me it's the throwing skills which are the most obvious improvements in the last 30 years.

The average team in the 1980s would have 2 or 4 guys tops who truly had their throws honed. Not the case anymore.


Peter Mc
Columbia, MO


Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110587 is a reply to message #110582] Mon, 06 February 2012 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
This is a post from Steve Mooney in 1996, which talks about a number of defensive strategies in vogue at the time:
http://abel.math.harvard.edu/~lee/concept3.html

A lot of it can be applied and built upon today, although I thought these two comments were interesting (and reveals some limitations of players at the time):
"most players can't throw a two finger more than 30-40 yards"
"Few players throw the inside out backhand well."

Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110596 is a reply to message #110587] Mon, 06 February 2012 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
druse77
Messages: 31
Registered: October 2010
Member
Yeah, for the record, I did not mean to put myself out there as an expert on the state of the game or its evolution. I was merely making a point that some of the arguments being made were based on unfounded assumptions.

Yes, the game has evolved, grown and developed, especially at the youth and college level. Even at the club level, where you probably do have more parity and a greater pool of athletes playing the sport. The unproven assumption being put forth though was that this, ipso facto, would make Revolver superior to the champions of bygone ages such as NYNY and DoG. I think the mistake here is to draw comparisons between the state of the general population of players and the state of the "elite of the elite" teams (the average club team may be better now than it was then, but this does not make the best team now automatically better than the best team then).

Also thrown into the mix was the useless, unsupported assumption that strategies are far more complex now. Maybe this was based on the sole game film that was the impetus of the thread but I just declared it was a stupid statement because no evidence was provided to back it up (and I'd bet that no one can).

Early teams such as NYNY and DoG faced multiple defensive looks and zones like the clam, 2-3-2, 1-3-3, the 4-man cup, the box and one etc. Worse, they either faced them for the first time and actually devised the strategies to counter them (which again I would bet most teams today still use or learned when they learned the so-called 'fundamentals' of our sport) or they invented/tweaked/improved upon them.

In the recent open finals, how many innovative offensive/defensive strategies were employed? Really? Ironside broke out a zone for 2 or 3 points when they were down 3 or 4 breaks in the 2d half.



Re: Early 90's NYNY vs Big Brother Full Game Broadcast [message #110608 is a reply to message #110596] Mon, 06 February 2012 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Regarding the 'elite of the elite'... my belief is that quality trickles up as well as down. Teams that play better overall competition, select from a better talent pool, and have richer history/strategy to draw on become stronger teams. And the very best of the teams brewed in that environment will probably beat a team that did not have those advantages.

"Early teams such as NYNY and DoG faced multiple defensive looks and zones like the clam, 2-3-2, 1-3-3, the 4-man cup, the box and one etc. Worse, they either faced them for the first time and actually devised the strategies to counter them (which again I would bet most teams today still use or learned when they learned the so-called 'fundamentals' of our sport) or they invented/tweaked/improved upon them."

Do you think teams since 1991 have also invented/tweaked/improved upon these fundamentals? Or did it stop at NYNY? I would include DoG's innovations in the post-1991 evolution, not with 1991 NYNY since their string of championship began in 1994, even though Boston teams were around before then. Having many of those fundamentals already tested, summarized, evaluated, filmed, and refined has been a tremendous boon as I have played and coached.

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