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USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96652] Mon, 09 May 2011 22:20 Go to next message
titustradewell
Messages: 88
Registered: May 2011
Member
This is the caliber of stuff I've wanted to see from the USAU as soon as they committed to the name change. Well written and (from my knowledge base) researched. I'd read more of David Belsheim's stuff.


USAU South Central Open Recap


Also, did anyone raise their eyebrows at the part where Texas State essentially forfeited their Colorado game by purposely turfing the disc?

Were I in that situation, I would probably do the same - just an interesting event in the realm of college ultimate. It has nothing to due with spirit and everything to do with tournament strategy. Whether or not you agree with it, isn't it a bad sign that a basic tenet of most of USAU's playoffs make this loophole possible? Maybe I'm wrong and it could be a unique wrinkle?

Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96654 is a reply to message #96652] Mon, 09 May 2011 22:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tyasantelo1
Messages: 16
Registered: April 2010
Junior Member
In scope of all CC's (sectionals) and Regionals, i don't feel like it happens as often as it could. The formats allow it to happen every tournament if need be, but I think it's still harder for a lot of teams to make the decision to basically forfeit a game to put themselves in a situation to benefit them to advance on further. Only because in other sports that's never an option, so it's hard to think of that as being a choice

I'm not saying Texas state is wrong for doing what they did. They are just one of few teams that have done it. They aren't cheating for utilizing the format in their benefit, but that does say something when you can use a process to potentially advance to nationals by throwing games. It didn't end up working for TS in the long run, but would it be a bigger deal had they made it... maybe?
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96655 is a reply to message #96652] Mon, 09 May 2011 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zman92
Messages: 41
Registered: March 2011
Location: NH
Member
I'd agree with you that throwing a game doesn't have much to do with Spirit, but what about pride? From what I heard, Texas State wasn't just trying to turf discs, they were actively trying to mack pulls to Colorado players for Callahans. Now I don't know about anyone else, but I would much rather at least try and put up a fight. I mean, what kind of message does throwing a game send to your players, past, present and future? Imagine being say a freshman on Texas State and in your first Regional tournament being told to throw a game. Even if throwing the game gets you an easier path to Nationals, the message I would take is one of, "Well we know we can't compete, so why even try?" To me, hearing that as a freshman would be disheartening at the least, and probably more like soul-crushing. And imagine being a senior on Texas State. Your last regional tournament, probably your last chance to face a Nationals level team, and you don't even put anything out on the field.

All I can say is I'm glad I've never been a part of a strategy like that, and I hope to god I never am in the future.

On a happy note, the Regional recap was very well written.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96674 is a reply to message #96655] Tue, 10 May 2011 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BrookDaves
Messages: 137
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
I hate throwing games, it's an embarrassment to the team doing it. UNT had that chance against CU and gave them the second-hardest game of the tourney (finals). Macking the pull? c'mon man.

Congrats to CU, Col Collage and Texas - rep the South well. This may be the best South teams to ever go.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96678 is a reply to message #96652] Tue, 10 May 2011 08:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgd.mitch
Messages: 1207
Registered: January 2009
Senior Member
titustradewell wrote on Tue, 10 May 2011 01:20
This is the caliber of stuff I've wanted to see from the USAU as soon as they committed to the name change. Well written and (from my knowledge base) researched. I'd read more of David Belsheim's stuff.
Having worked with Dave a few times now, outstanding work on his part is par for the course. Hopefully they utilize his services as often as possible.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96683 is a reply to message #96678] Tue, 10 May 2011 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
canis216
Messages: 84
Registered: January 2010
Location: The Four Corners
Member
Maybe they got some more rest, but I feel like throwing a game so blatantly can't put you in a good mindset for the rest of your games. I'd have opened up my lines as much as possible and thrown some sort of low-intensity junk D to save the legs. You wouldn't be going as hard, but by running something you can derive some beneficial experience from the game. Also, you feel like less of a dick.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96685 is a reply to message #96683] Tue, 10 May 2011 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
from_the_sidelines
Messages: 14
Registered: May 2011
Junior Member
In case you were wondering how the youth organizations handle this type of behavior:
http://askcoachwolff.com/2011/04/08/when-the-coach-throws-a-game/

And, of course, FIFA has to schedule third round games to start at the same time to avoid teams agreeing to play for a tie.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96687 is a reply to message #96674] Tue, 10 May 2011 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justheretoirritateyou
Messages: 48
Registered: December 2008
Member
BrookDaves wrote on Tue, 10 May 2011 10:55
This may be the best South teams to ever go.


Congratulations on picking up the Colorado schools this year. Now Kansas won't finish last!
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96702 is a reply to message #96652] Tue, 10 May 2011 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doctor
Messages: 247
Registered: April 2010
Location: H-town
Senior Member
Ya it was a good write up; just ended really aburptly. I was kinda interested to hear how Oklahoma and North Texas played.

Looks like Tx St lost stratigically, and got out of it what they hoped for. If they had taken the third spot, would we still say what they did was a bad thing? Just something to think about.

Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96706 is a reply to message #96702] Tue, 10 May 2011 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Bel
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2010
Member
Thanks for the kind words. I didn't have time to write about every team, I wish I did. I was also coaching Air Force so I had other priorities at the time and didn't get to see some of the other exciting matchups over the weekend.

I'd say Oklahoma played pretty consistently all weekend and that really helped them down the stretch. I wasn't able to see them beat Wash U (15-7) in the quarterfinals game, but that was a big win for them. Wash U relied heavily on a couple of their star players, I wonder if fatigue or injury finally caught up with them. The wind was a little stronger on Sunday morning, which might have favored Oklahoma as they've got a strong lefty who can huck in the wind. Oklahoma's win over Kansas State (15-11) was also unexpected. I was watching the final so I didn't see that game either. Perhaps OzarkUltimate will have more for you. Those OU players stepped up their game for sure.

I saw North Texas play Colorado and it was a pretty sloppy game in the first half, which is what North Texas wanted. Lots of turns on each possession and points coming from hustle and determination, rather than efficiency. Colorado made some defensive adjustments at halftime to take away North Texas' huck game, as well as apply more pressure downfield and this seemed to work well for them. A 6-7 halftime score became a 9-13 loss.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96707 is a reply to message #96652] Tue, 10 May 2011 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doctor
Messages: 247
Registered: April 2010
Location: H-town
Senior Member
Thanks David. Good stuff!
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96744 is a reply to message #96652] Tue, 10 May 2011 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom.Grund
Messages: 52
Registered: September 2008
Member
Texas State has the worst sportsmanship in the entire South Central region. The rest of the region should just refuse to play them in the regular season until their program dies.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96747 is a reply to message #96702] Tue, 10 May 2011 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
canis216
Messages: 84
Registered: January 2010
Location: The Four Corners
Member
Doctor wrote on Tue, 10 May 2011 11:42
Ya it was a good write up; just ended really aburptly. I was kinda interested to hear how Oklahoma and North Texas played.

Looks like Tx St lost stratigically, and got out of it what they hoped for. If they had taken the third spot, would we still say what they did was a bad thing? Just something to think about.



If they had taken the third spot after that display I think I might think even worse of them. If you don't want to see if you can hang with Mamabird a few points, why are you even trying to make natties? They'd certainly have become my pick to finish dead last. Turning it over deliberately, with no intent to stop the other team... it's pathetic and certainly not good spirit.

Shit, my team figured we weren't beating Streetgang or Condors at sectionals or regionals, but we didn't just roll over and die. Open up the lines, break out those plays you've been practicing but haven't worked the kinks out of, throw junk or zone to reduce the running you have to do... but don't do what they did.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96767 is a reply to message #96747] Wed, 11 May 2011 08:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BJ
Messages: 197
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Everyone around here is so smart and spirited!!

I owe nothing, including an explanation, to anyone but my players.

If you want to tell me how awful my strategy was to my face, I'll be on the TUFF sideline at nationals (especially you, Tom Grund).

Also, unlike most of you, we did make nationals last year, and played hard fought games until the very end, including a very exciting game against Mamabird.

-Bjorn

coach, Texas State
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96777 is a reply to message #96652] Wed, 11 May 2011 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knice
Messages: 79
Registered: October 2010
Member
Bjorn,

I think an explanation would go a long way towards enlightening the readers on RDS as to why you felt this was the best strategy for your team. Just like we discuss why Bill Belicheck went for it on 4th and long instead of punting and question him, we want to know why you told your team to throw a game. This is even more relevent when your actions draw negative attention to the sport of ultimate at a time when it is fighting for legitimacy at the collegiate level.

Or we can just reference your tactic with that of the Memphis Grizzles who lost the last couple of games of the season because they felt they matched up better against the Spurs and no one really cared.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96780 is a reply to message #96777] Wed, 11 May 2011 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BJ
Messages: 197
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Despite the public esteem carried by rec.sport.disc, and our friend Belsheim's Pulitzer worthy write up, who outside of ultimate is going to hear about this?

As a lifelong spurs fan, I prefer the terse road like Popovich. All the reasons I felt this was the right move have either been stated by Belsheim or one of the commenters. One last thing: Had my players objected, I would have complied.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96782 is a reply to message #96652] Wed, 11 May 2011 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rsdaccount
Messages: 125
Registered: March 2011
Senior Member
Texas State went to nationals last year, and it seems it was their goal to return again this year.

I don't see what the problem is if the team decided they had a better shot going through the back door. Sounds to me like the coach and captains made a calculated decision that almost paid off.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96785 is a reply to message #96782] Wed, 11 May 2011 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zippy
Messages: 36
Registered: January 2011
Location: Seattle
Member
I don't think the issue is so much with the fact that they threw the game (which I guess can be seen simply as a strategic move) but more in the (from what I've read/been told) classless way they went about it. Intentionally hucking the disc out of bounds at the fans, eating while playing a point, and essentially making a mockery of the sport at a regionals tournament isn't helping any of the negative stereotypes about Ultimate.

I'm simply going off of 2nd hand accounts of the game so if any of this is inaccurate please let me know.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96786 is a reply to message #96744] Wed, 11 May 2011 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gh1070@txstate.edu
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2011
Junior Member
Yo Grundy, thanks for typing up such a thought out response and critique of a game you didn't play and people you do not know.

I think everyone out there is buying into this way to hard. To me, a T State player, it is a L. Nothing more. I would have already forgotten the game if it wasn't for all you concerned, washed out, rubber-neckers. No one's pride is damaged. No one feels insignificant.

By throwing the game we achieved:
1 more hour of sleep on Sunday
A 15 point long warm up
A spot in the 3rd place bracket (breaking seed)
Nearly a 2 hour post game break
Not giving CU the respect of a real game (personal satisfaction)


As for the messages we sent with our actions:
The freshman we put on the field know why we went to Regionals. I saw them make the plays that allowed us to end Wash U and Kansas's weekend. They did not go home defeated, they went home victorious, knowing they will break even more seeds next season than we did this year (4-5?)We'll be back next year.

Further, I'm still waiting on the thank you from CU for laying down and making their day that much easier.

F politics,
Feltner


Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96787 is a reply to message #96785] Wed, 11 May 2011 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BJones
Messages: 253
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
We always had rookies that needed play time. When I was at Buffalo we
made Semis against Cornell at Sectionals. We played the young guys,
lost 13-1, while the veterans rested.




On May 11, 2:15 pm, Charlie <l...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> I don't think the issue is so much with the fact that they
> threw the game (which I guess can be seen simply as a
> strategic move) but more in the (from what I've read/been
> told) classless way they went about it. Intentionally
> hucking the disc out of bounds at the fans, eating while
> playing a point, and essentially making a mockery of the
> sport at a regionals tournament isn't helping any of the
> negative stereotypes about Ultimate.
>
> I'm simply going off of 2nd hand accounts of the game so if
> any of this is inaccurate please let me know.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96788 is a reply to message #96785] Wed, 11 May 2011 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gh1070@txstate.edu
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2011
Junior Member
zippy wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 11:11
I don't think the issue is so much with the fact that they threw the game (which I guess can be seen simply as a strategic move) but more in the (from what I've read/been told) classless way they went about it. Intentionally hucking the disc out of bounds at the fans, eating while playing a point, and essentially making a mockery of the sport at a regionals tournament isn't helping any of the negative stereotypes about Ultimate.

I'm simply going off of 2nd hand accounts of the game so if any of this is inaccurate please let me know.


We definitely threw the disc out of bounds. It is the fans responsibility to move. I was only eating on the field because I was still trying to warm up, no disrespect intended.

Fueling negative stereotypes? No one even knows about Ultimate other than RSD, and I couldn't care less what some undergrad thinks of the way I play.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96791 is a reply to message #96787] Wed, 11 May 2011 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gh1070@txstate.edu
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2011
Junior Member
Yo Grundy, thanks for typing up such a thought out response and critique of a game you didn't play and people you do not know.

I think everyone out there is buying into this way to hard. To me, a T State player, it is a L. Nothing more. I would have already forgotten the game if it wasn't for all you concerned, washed out, rubber-neckers. No one's pride is damaged. No one feels insignificant.

By throwing the game we achieved:
1 more hour of sleep on Sunday
A 15 point long warm up
A spot in the 3rd place bracket (breaking seed)
Nearly a 2 hour post game break
Not giving CU the respect of a real game (personal satisfaction)


As for the messages we sent with our actions:
The freshman we put on the field know why we went to Regionals. I saw them make the plays that allowed us to end Wash U and Kansas's weekend. They did not go home defeated, they went home victorious, knowing they will break even more seeds next season than we did this year (4-5?)We'll be back next year.

Further, I'm still waiting on the thank you from CU for laying down and making their day that much easier.

F politics,
Feltner
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96793 is a reply to message #96785] Wed, 11 May 2011 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fluffyfinger
Messages: 5
Registered: April 2011
Location: TEXAS
Junior Member
zippy wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 11:11
Intentionally hucking the disc out of bounds at the fans, eating while playing a point, and essentially making a mockery of the sport at a regionals tournament isn't helping any of the negative stereotypes about Ultimate.


We play a sport with plastic frisbees, no referees, and most people have to ask if you throw discs into baskets or use dogs. It's not hard to make a mockery of it. Time to pick up Kronum if you want something more seriouser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6aL2Q0Crv8
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96794 is a reply to message #96787] Wed, 11 May 2011 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rsdaccount
Messages: 125
Registered: March 2011
Senior Member
Doesn't the article say that Texas State had a small roster? Perhaps they couldn't afford to play their rookies or freshman.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96806 is a reply to message #96791] Wed, 11 May 2011 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zman92
Messages: 41
Registered: March 2011
Location: NH
Member
gh1070@txstate.edu wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 13:01

Further, I'm still waiting on the thank you from CU for laying down and making their day that much easier.


CU should be very thankful! Because Texas State didn't play a real game, they didn't have a chance to grab anyone's neck and choke-slam them. Mamabird should feel lucky they made it out of that game with all their players alive.

Seriously though, CU doesn't owe you anything. They had nothing to do with you throwing the game. If it were up to me, I'd ban Texas State from the series next year. The MLB did it with the 1919 White Sox and Pete Rose. I understand Texas State threw the game because of a strategic decision, but that still doesn't justify it in my mind. There's a huge difference between not playing your starters and giving the other team an easy game, and handing the game to them on a silver platter. There's this thing called respect, for yourself, your opponents, and the game, and I think Texas State failed all three of those.

They didn't respect themselves enough to put an honest effort forward.

They didn't respect CU enough to challenge them in an important game.

And they didn't respect the game by making a mockery of all the hard work the players on every single other team put in for the entire season.

To anyone on Texas State, I am perfectly willing to say this to your face too. Throwing the game was a gutless move.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96808 is a reply to message #96806] Wed, 11 May 2011 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BJ
Messages: 197
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
O boy, let's meet asap!! Going 2 ne major tournaments?

PS. I won't be in New Hampshire...probably ever.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96809 is a reply to message #96652] Wed, 11 May 2011 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doctor
Messages: 247
Registered: April 2010
Location: H-town
Senior Member
The Laker's threw game 4 against the Mavs for the purposes of strategically placing themselves on a beach; Can't say I blame them. They never stood a chance vs Dallas. Anyone gunna complain about this?

btw, Bynum's cheap-shot was worse than the choke-slam.

In fact, let's drop that whole incident please. Its like getting a black-eye and then punching yourself in the face so you can tell more people that you have a black eye.

LET'S GO MAVS!
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96813 is a reply to message #96806] Wed, 11 May 2011 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fluffyfinger
Messages: 5
Registered: April 2011
Location: TEXAS
Junior Member
zman92 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 13:33


Because Texas State didn't play a real game, they didn't have a chance to grab anyone's neck and choke-slam them.

-----

To anyone on Texas State, I am perfectly willing to say this to your face too. Throwing the game was a gutless move.


I've seen this "choke-slam" video. What happened in this situation was so far from a choke slam, it's not even funny. I'd love to see an un-edited version of this as well, because they seem to only show the part where their player got thrown down. I've been told the kid from the shit Wisconsin school was aggressive and said something along the lines "bring it" after the txstate kid asked if he was gonna play as rough as he was playing all game. It was brought it seems. And in typical frisbee fashion, the kid was a huge baby and laid on the ground.

Congrats on your ability to say you'll tell them to their face that they acted so dastardly, pal. I bet you'll see some txstate players at some point. I bet you won't say a word about it. I agree that it would have been more respectful to try in the game, but just stfu about this "meeting face to face" shit. All of you. None of you will ever say anything meaningful to each other. Ever. Move on.

On Doctor's note, I'm gonna have to side with the Laker's here. I'd rather be on a beach than playing in the conference championship as well.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96814 is a reply to message #96806] Wed, 11 May 2011 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zc1023@txstate.edu
Messages: 2
Registered: May 2011
Location: Texas
Junior Member
"If it were up to me, I'd ban Texas State from the series next year. The MLB did it with the 1919 White Sox and Pete Rose.

they didn't respect the game by making a mockery of all the hard work the players on every single other team put in for the entire season." ~zman92

I'm so glad you are ignorant enough to compare throwing a game based on a strategic decision to that of selfish greedy professional athletes. We pay for all of our expenses for Ultimate and go out there to do what is best for our team.

Our team has put in work all year to do well at tournaments such as regionals with the same goal of making nationals as the next team. We obviously did well enough to make it into bracket play for one of three spots at nationals. We did what was best for our teams morale, energy, and health. Our team came together after that game to finish off a skilled Wash U team.

You should probably learn something about these teams that you try to insult before you come off sounding like a babbling idiot. Every team out there looks out for the best interests for their team and that's exactly what we did. We fought through our fair share of adversity this year and came through in the end breaking seed at regionals and having a shot at nationals still. We owe nobody apologies and expect nothing from anyone else.


ZC1023
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96818 is a reply to message #96652] Wed, 11 May 2011 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daag Alemayehu
Messages: 249
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
The practice of throwing a game at regionals to give yourself an
easier road to nationals has been done to death, people. Are you all
like 5 years old? Where's your long-term memory?

Texas State didn't invent this strategy. They can't be blamed for
tarnishing the sport for doing something that has been attempted in at
least one region, without exaggeration, almost every single year. Now,
if you want to complain about HOW they did it, that's another
discussion. But in the end, they're still giving away a game. And that
ain't new.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96820 is a reply to message #96818] Wed, 11 May 2011 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RSDRCH
Messages: 32
Registered: October 2010
Location: STL
Member
Stop talking about this.


FYT
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96838 is a reply to message #96820] Wed, 11 May 2011 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daag Alemayehu
Messages: 249
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On May 11, 9:50 pm, RobFYT <rob.c.hil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stop talking about this.

....which is what I just said, in case you didn't figure that out
already.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96840 is a reply to message #96652] Wed, 11 May 2011 22:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom.Grund
Messages: 52
Registered: September 2008
Member
I was speaking solely of the poor sportsmanship demonstrated by Texas State in their game versus Kansas State. After playing them I am in no way surprised by the "choke-slam" incident. Numerous hard forearms. Saying "f@#$ you" to your defender when you catch the disc. Many players not in the handshake line and some that were slung insults.

Felty, I do know your team its lack of class. I have no problem with your team playing the bracket/format. I do have a problem with your team not respecting your opponents and the sport. That being said, you can change your teams atmosphere for the future so that your team is not looked upon so negatively.

Best of luck in the off-season.
Re: USAU South Central Open Recap [message #96939 is a reply to message #96818] Fri, 13 May 2011 14:29 Go to previous message
canis216
Messages: 84
Registered: January 2010
Location: The Four Corners
Member
Daag Alemayehu wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 19:41
The practice of throwing a game at regionals to give yourself an
easier road to nationals has been done to death, people. Are you all
like 5 years old? Where's your long-term memory?

Texas State didn't invent this strategy. They can't be blamed for
tarnishing the sport for doing something that has been attempted in at
least one region, without exaggeration, almost every single year. Now,
if you want to complain about HOW they did it, that's another
discussion. But in the end, they're still giving away a game. And that
ain't new.


My problem is strictly with how it was done, as in intentionally throwing away the disc. Please include me out of venom going either way.
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