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Home » RSD » RSD Posts » Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe)
Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51899] Mon, 08 February 2010 10:40 Go to next message
shirtsonly
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2009
Junior Member
This is a clip from universe point of the Ego vs. CUT game at TiV this
past weekend. Carleton started on O and worked the disc about halfway
up the field before a turnover. Eli Janin picked up the disc and
hucked it for the gamewinning score, only to have it brought back on a
travel call from across the field (after the disc was caught).

I've never been an advocate of reffed ultimate, but calls like this
might change my mind...

The clip:

http://vimeo.com/9246732
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51901 is a reply to message #51899] Mon, 08 February 2010 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Edelman
Messages: 14
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
that is horrible. i'm ashamed for the dude who made that call. i hope black still won.


http://www.quotidianword.com/feeds/sig.aspx
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51903 is a reply to message #51901] Mon, 08 February 2010 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scpoulos14
Messages: 133
Registered: December 2009
Senior Member
nah, black lost apparently. bummer of a call by the defending champs. C2W!! woop-woop! but maybe they were nice about the call.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51905 is a reply to message #51903] Mon, 08 February 2010 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
McB
Messages: 65
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Feb 8, 1:10 pm, Stephen <scpou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> nah, black lost apparently.  bummer of a call by the
> defending champs.  C2W!! woop-woop!  but maybe they were
> nice about the call.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

If the disc was out of bounds when the thrower picked it up, a ground
check is required. That's the only way that's a violation. I
definitely saw no foot movement.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51906 is a reply to message #51899] Mon, 08 February 2010 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 1:40 pm, joe <shirtso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a clip from universe point of the Ego vs. CUT game at TiV this
> past weekend.  Carleton started on O and worked the disc about halfway
> up the field before a turnover.  Eli Janin picked up the disc and
> hucked it for the gamewinning score, only to have it brought back on a
> travel call from across the field (after the disc was caught).
>
> I've never been an advocate of reffed ultimate, but calls like this
> might change my mind...
>
> The clip:
>
> http://vimeo.com/9246732

Many of the players I have seen do not hold themselves to any kind of
standard when it comes to "recogniz[ing] that an infraction has
occurred." Instead, whenever they think there might possibly have
been an infraction, they announce that there WAS an infraction and
bring the disc back. Many Carleton players since 2005 have fallen
into this group.

Yet these same players would be furious if they received that
treatment from an opponent. And if everyone did that crap the game
would grind to a halt.

Having reviewed hundreds of clips of players frame-by-frame and in
extreme slow motion, I feel comfortable stating that it's really
difficult to properly identify the close travel calls. And lots of
things that players would call as egregious travels simply are not
travels.

Solutions, in order of extremity: TMFs for shady calls, active
travels, refs.

I'd like to start with TMFs for these close calls. The message sent
is that calling things based on maybes is not acceptable. The
observer shouldn't be ruling a do-over just because you made a shady
call that was too close for the observer (or you) to tell if it was a
travel. Instead, the call should be overruled and you should get a
TMF. But we need improved observer training for this to happen.

And yes, this deters players from making calls. This is a good
thing. Whether a player's foot moved 1 cm before or after the release
is not going to make a difference in anything. But making calls
irresponsibly has a huge negative impact on the game.

Combine that with TMFs for being a jackass and you've got a pretty
tough, effective system.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51910 is a reply to message #51906] Mon, 08 February 2010 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Traveling = the only situation where an observer will always have the best perspective (closely followed by in/out).

With receiving fouls, marking fouls, even up/down calls, the players involved will usually have a better idea of what occured (if they are honest) than the observer. But active travels are a no-brainer.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51911 is a reply to message #51899] Mon, 08 February 2010 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
josh[1]
Messages: 71
Registered: October 2009
Member
On Feb 8, 1:40 pm, joe <shirtso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a clip from universe point of the Ego vs. CUT game at TiV this
> past weekend.  Carleton started on O and worked the disc about halfway
> up the field before a turnover.  Eli Janin picked up the disc and
> hucked it for the gamewinning score, only to have it brought back on a
> travel call from across the field (after the disc was caught).
>
> I've never been an advocate of reffed ultimate, but calls like this
> might change my mind...
>
> The clip:
>
> http://vimeo.com/9246732

Wow! Absolutely no question about it. That is a horrible call.
It should not be possible for that call to change the outcome of a
serious match in a well-regulated sport. SOTG definitely did not
"work" in this case.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51912 is a reply to message #51905] Mon, 08 February 2010 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bountiful Garden Foun
Messages: 528
Registered: August 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 11:14 am, McB <christopher.m.mcbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 1:10 pm, Stephen <scpou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > nah, black lost apparently.  bummer of a call by the
> > defending champs.  C2W!! woop-woop!  but maybe they were
> > nice about the call.
> > --
> > Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
>
> If the disc was out of bounds when the thrower picked it up, a ground
> check is required. That's the only way that's a violation. I
> definitely saw no foot movement.

is it possible you're looking at the wrong foot?

If the disc was out of bounds, the pivot foot should have been on the
sideline and the right foot OB. If both feet were in, with the right
foot on the sideline, the right foot would have to be the pivot foot.

Either way, I think travel calls like this give legitimate travel
calls a bad name.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51916 is a reply to message #51899] Mon, 08 February 2010 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 1:40 pm, joe <shirtso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've never been an advocate of reffed ultimate, but calls like this
> might change my mind...


why in the fuck do you think refs exist in the first
place.........wake up bro!
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51918 is a reply to message #51901] Mon, 08 February 2010 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 1:54 pm, Edelman <Edelman.Ja...@gmail.com> wrote:

> that is horrible. i'm ashamed for the dude who made that
> call. i hope black still won.


WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PRE GAME SPIRIT PEP TALKS THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO
ELLIMINATE SUCH SUCK CALLS??????? did yall not get "european" enough
for that peptalk to last the whole game?
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51919 is a reply to message #51905] Mon, 08 February 2010 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:14 pm, McB <christopher.m.mcbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the disc was out of bounds when the thrower picked it up, a ground
> check is required. That's the only way that's a violation. I
> definitely saw no foot movement.


what a gay rule. i'd violate it intentionally every time just to
protest its gayness
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51923 is a reply to message #51906] Mon, 08 February 2010 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:34 pm, Colin <colinmcint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Having reviewed hundreds of clips of players frame-by-frame and in
> extreme slow motion, I feel comfortable stating that it's really
> difficult to properly identify the close travel calls.


not all that hard to identify that allowing partial players to
"control" it is a recipe for disaster though, eh?
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------


 And lots of
> things that players would call as egregious travels simply are not
> travels.

THATS THE THING THOUGH......they dont even have to be travels at all
for them to be called and honored. me thinks people figured this out
many moons ago.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------
>
> Solutions, in order of extremity: TMFs for shady calls, active
> travels, refs.

whats the difference in making the call active and having refs? isnt
the act of making it active essentially what would transform an
observer INTO a ref? Oh, and that youre just spinnin your wheels with
that first "incentive".......just streamline it and make it active.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------
>
> I'd like to start with TMFs for these close calls.

good thing the uoa is making that idea a thing of the past. you need
to get with the times on thios one colin.
----------------------------------------------

 The message sent
> is that calling things based on maybes is not acceptable.

why go thru that process though when they can just "enforce" whats
acceptable by making it active?
------------------------------------------------------------ -----



 The
> observer shouldn't be ruling a do-over just because you made a shady
> call that was too close for the observer (or you) to tell if it was a
> travel.  Instead, the call should be overruled and you should get a
> TMF.  But we need improved observer training for this to happen.

i think ya just need to adapt and adopt. baby steps are for babies.
ultimate is over 40 now......time to ditch the training wheels.
------------------------------------------------------
>
> And yes, this deters players from making calls.

not as much as taking away the allowance altogether
------------------------------------------------------------ -----



 This is a good
> thing.  Whether a player's foot moved 1 cm before or after the release
> is not going to make a difference in anything.  But making calls
> irresponsibly has a huge negative impact on the game.

duh.......but what do you expect from a bunch of humans?
------------------------------------------------------------ -
>
> Combine that with TMFs for being a jackass and you've got a pretty
> tough, effective system.

pretty drawn out system. little tip for ya.......us sports fans like
out arbitration to be delt with in a quick and effecient manner. the
more streamlined the better. allowing players to take part in the
process AT ALL just complicates things.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51924 is a reply to message #51911] Mon, 08 February 2010 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:46 pm, josh murphy <joshmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Wow!  Absolutely no question about it.  That is a horrible call.


why are you so surprised? NUMBER ONE WHY PEOPLE CHEAT IN
LIFE.......because they can. make it harder for them to cheat and
they wont be able to "can".
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------
> It should not be possible for that call to change the outcome of a
> serious match in a well-regulated sport.

it isnt.......its just that ultimate is far from being well regulated
-------------------------------------------------------



SOTG definitely did not
> "work" in this case.


and thats the crux of sotg.............in ANY case THAT ONE SO CHOOSE
it never works.

you people are idiots
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51925 is a reply to message #51910] Mon, 08 February 2010 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:48 pm, Slade <bslad...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Traveling = the only situation where an observer will always
> have the best perspective (closely followed by in/out).
>
> With receiving fouls, marking fouls, even up/down calls, the
> players involved will usually have a better idea of what
> occured (if they are honest) than the observer.


then why arent the players allowed to take part in the process IN ALL
OTHER SPORTS if this is the case?......or your argument for keeping
fouls and up/down calls in the hands of players.
----------------------------------------------------




But active
> travels are a no-brainer.

why arent full on refs a no brainer.........especially when they seem
to be in all other sports. I mean, aside from you people being a
bunch of spirt twerps, whats the big difference.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51926 is a reply to message #51912] Mon, 08 February 2010 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:48 pm, Crazy <fhuguen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Either way, I think travel calls like this give legitimate travel
> calls a bad name.

isnt it more like what gives the whole self officiation system a bad
name. and by "like this" dont you meant "partially motivated
ones".....which begs the question, why even give someone thats
OBVIOUSLY PARTIAL the opportunity to have a say in the first fuckin
place. so its your own damn fault for playing under such an IDIOTIC
system. bunch o stupes
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51929 is a reply to message #51926] Mon, 08 February 2010 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hammie Chen
Messages: 25
Registered: May 2009
Junior Member
I really dislike how this thread just got killed off...
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51930 is a reply to message #51929] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oreo
Messages: 28
Registered: February 2009
Junior Member
Way to hijack a thread and respond to yourself multiple times. But
yea. terrible call, white should be ashamed. play better defense and
you wont have to make shitty calls
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51932 is a reply to message #51929] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stephenghubbard
Messages: 208
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
Damn, I feel bad for the CUT guy.

I can definitely see them taking a big hit in the candc25 poll and im sure this will be talked about for a while on RSD. I wonder if abstract online scorn is sufficient to prevent this from happening in the future.../(end sarcasm).


I actually do think the Observer TMF system has the potential to deal with calls like this. I bet if the UPA passed out new Observer guidelines and increased the rate of TMFs 5 fold, we would see a LOT of the current problems go away. TMF in the first point for an overturned travel call that was obviously a guess: no more BS calls for the rest of the game. But like Colin said, we need more and better trained observers.

-Pumba

Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51933 is a reply to message #51912] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
richardaustinwest
Messages: 184
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:48 pm, Crazy <fhuguen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 11:14 am, McB <christopher.m.mcbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 8, 1:10 pm, Stephen <scpou...@gmail.com> wrote:

> is it possible you're looking at the wrong foot?
>
> If the disc was out of bounds, the pivot foot should have been on the
> sideline and the right foot OB.  If both feet were in, with the right
> foot on the sideline, the right foot would have to be the pivot foot.
>
> Either way, I think travel calls like this give legitimate travel
> calls a bad name.

Here's the correct question. It's a borderline travel call for this
reason, he picks it up from directly beneath but declares his pivot as
the left. That's a travel. Is that a call to make on universe point
when you've just turned it over stupidly? That's the real question.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51936 is a reply to message #51910] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:48 pm, Slade <bslad...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Traveling = the only situation where an observer will always
> have the best perspective (closely followed by in/out).
>
> With receiving fouls, marking fouls, even up/down calls, the
> players involved will usually have a better idea of what
> occured (if they are honest) than the observer. But active
> travels are a no-brainer.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

Active travels are good if...

1) You establish a good standard for what gets called. As a player, I
see far more travels occur than I call. Why? Because I don't care
about them. They are minor. I don't whip out my protractor to see if
a cutter changed direction slightly after catching the disc. It is
more valuable to me to keep the game moving and not stop play.

2) The observers are trained at this. Frankly, I'm unsure that
observers can reliably call travels and marking fouls at the same
time. The ideal positioning is different for each. If we're going to
go with active travel calls, then every observer should have to pass
some kind of quiz to determine that they're competent to call this
stuff. A video quiz might suffice.

So far, nobody has proposed a good solution for 1) or 2). If this
issue gets put up for a vote by the players again without addressing
1) and 2), then that's just poor planning again.

The intermediate solution should be to deter shady travel calls
through use of TMFs.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51937 is a reply to message #51929] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 3:49 pm, Hammie Chen <samuel.che...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I really dislike how this thread just got killed off...

who says its dead. i just got started with you clowns.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51938 is a reply to message #51930] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 4:05 pm, oreo <oreo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Way to hijack a thread and respond to yourself multiple times. But
> yea. terrible call, white should be ashamed.

pfffft, YOU are the one that should be ashamed.......for playing with
a rules set where such STUPID player allowances are.........allowed
----------------------------------------------------




play better defense and
> you wont have to make shitty calls



get refs and you wont have to put up with such shitty calls.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51939 is a reply to message #51933] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 4:11 pm, "richardaustinw...@gmail.com" .
>
> Here's the correct question.  It's a borderline travel call for this
> reason, he picks it up from directly beneath but declares his pivot as
> the left.  That's a travel.  Is that a call to make on universe point
> when you've just turned it over stupidly?  That's the real question.



if the player CAN......FUCK YES. i get what you are trying to say
here though.....not only do you want all partial players to make
impartial judgements but also to use discretion when they call them.
HA.....you cant even get people to be honest and you expect them to be
honest AND let the little technical shit slide. You mf's are in a
dream world.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51940 is a reply to message #51932] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 4:12 pm, stephenghubbard <stephenghubb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Damn, I feel bad for the CUT guy.
>
> I can definitely see them taking a big hit in the candc25
> poll and im sure this will be talked about for a while on
> RSD. I wonder if abstract online scorn is sufficient to
> prevent this from happening in the future.../(end sarcasm).
>
> I actually do think the Observer TMF system has the
> potential to deal with calls like this. I bet if the UPA
> passed out new Observer guidelines and increased the rate of
> TMFs 5 fold, we would see a LOT of the current problems go
> away. TMF in the first point for an overturned travel call
> that was obviously a guess: no more BS calls for the rest of
> the game. But like Colin said, we need more and better
> trained observers.
>
> -Pumba
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

wouldnt simply making it active be a much more effecient way to deal
with it?
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51941 is a reply to message #51932] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 4:12 pm, stephenghubbard <stephenghubb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Damn, I feel bad for the CUT guy.
>
> I can definitely see them taking a big hit in the candc25
> poll and im sure this will be talked about for a while on
> RSD. I wonder if abstract online scorn is sufficient to
> prevent this from happening in the future.../(end sarcasm).
>
> I actually do think the Observer TMF system has the
> potential to deal with calls like this. I bet if the UPA
> passed out new Observer guidelines and increased the rate of
> TMFs 5 fold, we would see a LOT of the current problems go
> away. TMF in the first point for an overturned travel call
> that was obviously a guess: no more BS calls for the rest of
> the game. But like Colin said, we need more and better
> trained observers.
>
> -Pumba
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

Yes, I like your thinking, Pumba.

But even a totally incompetent observer incorrectly overturning calls
and handing out TMFs would put a halt to this behavior. If the
observer says "I'm 90% sure that that was too close for me to call,"
then that should be enough for a TMF. I't's not going to ruin the
game for players to be hesitant and not call a few legitimate
travels. But it does ruin the game for players to call tons of shady
travels. And we're not taking the game out of the players' control as
observers if we do this. It will be the players that try to turn the
game into a travel call-fest and the observers just administer
appropriate sanctions to keep things under control.

We also have the 2 warning TMF safety net, which reduces the impact of
an improper TMF. Another reason to not be hesitant about giving them
out. Even a bunch of questionable TMFs would be better than the
current system with lots of improper failure to issue TMFs,
accompanied by a whole lot of undeterred cheating and other bad
behavior.

Of course, I should mention that in the vast majority of games that I
have played in, even this more aggressive TMF enforcement would not
have an impact. Lots of games go very smoothly without any issues,
even at Nationals. Observed and unobserved. But if we have a system
for addressing those problem games, then we should enforce it in a way
that is not completely toothless for the first 80% of the game.

Even under the relatively mild TMF enforcement, Carleton is one of the
few teams that has managed to earn a Misconduct Penalty (2009).
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51942 is a reply to message #51936] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 4:27 pm, Colin <colinmcint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 1) You establish a good standard for what gets called.  As a player, I
> see far more travels occur than I call.  Why?  Because I don't care
> about them.  They are minor.  I don't whip out my protractor to see if
> a cutter changed direction slightly after catching the disc.  It is
> more valuable to me to keep the game moving and not stop play.

but thats just you. there are 13 other refs out there that may use a
different standard AND interpretation (not to mention AS A BAILOUT
CALL). so wouldnt it be MUCH easier to establish a standard between 2
IMPARTIAL observers than 40 some PARTIAL players? Your whole argument
there hinges on everybody being just like you.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------
>
> 2) The observers are trained at this.  Frankly, I'm unsure that
> observers can reliably call travels and marking fouls at the same
> time.

they do in b-ball.......along with a plethera of other violations.
-------------------------------------------------


 The ideal positioning is different for each.  If we're going to
> go with active travel calls, then every observer should have to pass
> some kind of quiz to determine that they're competent to call this
> stuff.  A video quiz might suffice.

them uoa guys seem to be doing it with GREAT SUCCESS.......and i dont
know about any quizes theyve taken.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------
>
> So far, nobody has proposed a good solution for 1) or 2).


i'd say the the uoa itself IS the solution.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------


 If this
> issue gets put up for a vote by the players again without addressing
> 1) and 2), then that's just poor planning again.


well, that would just go to show that the kids prefer poor planning to
the ill conceived inherant flaws that exist in the "player control"
system. Theyre no dummies. Lucily the uoa trained officials will be
there to pick up the peices, nit if, but WHEN that happens.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------
>
> The intermediate solution should be to deter shady travel calls
> through use of TMFs.

pfft, thats the old school way to do it.......youde better get with
the times ther colin
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51944 is a reply to message #51941] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
blake312
Messages: 18
Registered: February 2010
Junior Member
colinmcintyre wrote on Mon, 08 February 2010 13:40

Even under the relatively mild TMF enforcement, Carleton is one of the
few teams that has managed to earn a Misconduct Penalty (2009).


When/how did that happen?

I regards to the video posted, it also seems dubious that the player that called the travel was the one who had just turned it over.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51945 is a reply to message #51941] Mon, 08 February 2010 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pkurshan
Messages: 63
Registered: September 2008
Member
I agree- I think if your goal is to reduce the number of travel calls,
then more heavy-handed TMF use is a much better way to achieve that
goal than active travel calls, which while they might reduce some
bogus calls, will also introduce a whole lot of other non-bogus (but
unimportant) calls that players wouldn't call themselves.
I am a big fan of more aggressive TMF use to curb the problem of bogus
calls- the best thing about it is that it only affects teams that make
bogus calls- everyone else can just play the game.
-peri (own personal opinion)


On Feb 8, 4:40 pm, Colin <colinmcint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I like your thinking, Pumba.
>
> But even a totally incompetent observer incorrectly overturning calls
> and handing out TMFs would put a halt to this behavior.  If the
> observer says "I'm 90% sure that that was too close for me to call,"
> then that should be enough for a TMF.  I't's not going to ruin the
> game for players to be hesitant and not call a few legitimate
> travels.  But it does ruin the game for players to call tons of shady
> travels.  And we're not taking the game out of the players' control as
> observers if we do this.  It will be the players that try to turn the
> game into a travel call-fest and the observers just administer
> appropriate sanctions to keep things under control.
>
> We also have the 2 warning TMF safety net, which reduces the impact of
> an improper TMF.  Another reason to not be hesitant about giving them
> out.  Even a bunch of questionable TMFs would be better than the
> current system with lots of improper failure to issue TMFs,
> accompanied by a whole lot of undeterred cheating and other bad
> behavior.
>
> Of course, I should mention that in the vast majority of games that I
> have played in, even this more aggressive TMF enforcement would not
> have an impact.  Lots of games go very smoothly without any issues,
> even at Nationals.  Observed and unobserved.  But if we have a system
> for addressing those problem games, then we should enforce it in a way
> that is not completely toothless for the first 80% of the game.
>
> Even under the relatively mild TMF enforcement, Carleton is one of the
> few teams that has managed to earn a Misconduct Penalty (2009).
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51946 is a reply to message #51941] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 4:40 pm, Colin <colinmcint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But even a totally incompetent observer incorrectly overturning calls
> and handing out TMFs would put a halt to this behavior.


not as quickly OR EFFECIENTLY as simply taking the call out of their
hands altogether. think about it.
----------------------------------------------------------

 If the
> observer says "I'm 90% sure that that was too close for me to call,"
> then that should be enough for a TMF.

in which, if active, he would simply NOT call it right? so why even
put in the part where ya not only have to monitor for the violation,
but also for a violation of calling the violation when you didnt think
there was a violation to begin with. can you say "clusterfuck".
seriously colin......ever herd of the term "simplify"?
---------------------------------------------------------



 I't's not going to ruin the
> game for players to be hesitant and not call a few legitimate
> travels.

nor would it if the observers just cut out all the bullshit and called
it themselves........IN FACT, it would probably improve it.
wait......it ALREADY DID IMPROVE IT. see your local uoa game for
proof
------------------------------------------------------------ ------



 But it does ruin the game for players to call tons of shady
> travels.

good thing such a STUPID ALLOWANCE is easily fixable(reversable)
------------------------------------------------------------ --------



 And we're not taking the game out of the players' control as
> observers if we do this.


theres your first mistake.
-------------------------------------------------


 It will be the players that try to turn the
> game into a travel call-fest and the observers just administer
> appropriate sanctions to keep things under control.

an around the elbow to get to the asshole plan if there EVER was one.
------------------------------------------------------------ ----
>
> We also have the 2 warning TMF safety net, which reduces the impact of
> an improper TMF.

wouldnt ya rather just not even have to bother with all that bullshit
though?
-----------------------------------------------------


 Another reason to not be hesitant about giving them
> out.  Even a bunch of questionable TMFs would be better than the
> current system with lots of improper failure to issue TMFs,
> accompanied by a whole lot of undeterred cheating and other bad
> behavior.

why some of you people feel the need to reinvent the wheel i'll NEVER
GET
------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Of course, I should mention that in the vast majority of games that I
> have played in, even this more aggressive TMF enforcement would not
> have an impact.  Lots of games go very smoothly without any issues,
> even at Nationals.  Observed and unobserved.  But if we have a system
> for addressing those problem games, then we should enforce it in a way
> that is not completely toothless for the first 80% of the game.

so what do you do when someone pulls out a shitty call late in the
game when they have plenty of tmf's to give prior to any tangible
consequense. wont you just be asking teams to use those up in the
same way people (like you maybe) feel they would "use up" personal
fouls in an unspirited manner if they were limited.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51947 is a reply to message #51946] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T H
Messages: 1142
Registered: July 2009
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Senior Member
can someone tell me where Carlton Universe is located?
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51949 is a reply to message #51947] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rebelnugget
Messages: 37
Registered: February 2010
Member
So, by the rules, that actually was a travel, right? Because the disc was out of bounds and he either didn't check it in or he didn't establish his pivot foot on the sideline or both.

Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51950 is a reply to message #51944] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 5:06 pm, Blake <blake...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> colinmcintyre wrote on Mon, 08 February 2010 13:40
>
> > Even under the relatively mild TMF enforcement, Carleton
> > is one of the
> > few teams that has managed to earn a Misconduct Penalty
> > (2009).
>
> When/how did that happen?
>
> I regards to the video posted, it also seems dubious that
> the player that called the travel was the one who had just
> turned it over.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

I believe it was the semi-final game against Stanford. I do not
remember the exact details.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51951 is a reply to message #51945] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 4:54 pm, Peri Kurshan <pkurs...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree- I think if your goal is to reduce the number of travel calls,
> then more heavy-handed TMF use is a much better way to achieve that
> goal than active travel calls,

pffft, your crazy

AND DONT YOU HAVE A BLOG THAT NEEDS UPDATING PERI. why dont you worry
about that and let the professionals at uoa headquarters deal with
refining the observer system.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------



which while they might reduce some
> bogus calls, will also introduce a whole lot of other non-bogus (but
> unimportant) calls that players wouldn't call themselves.

If it suits them eh? another point of having impartial onlookers
calling them ALL. theres no picking or choosing to speak of and you
get a much more constistant result.
------------------------------------------------------------ --




> I am a big fan of more aggressive TMF use to curb the problem of bogus
> calls-

In other words, YOU ARE A BIG OPPONENT of it becoming active. Which
means your a big opponent of the uoa. oh well, cant wait til memorial
day to see the KIDS change the history of this sport FOREVER.

Just think peri, youre gonna get hammered with an active travel AND an
"observer quick ruling" all at once. I assume you arent all that
jazzed up about the prospect of that, are ya?
------------------------------------------------------------ --



the best thing about it is that it only affects teams that make
> bogus calls- everyone else can just play the game.


not as seemlesly as when its OUT OF THE PLAYERS HANDS. do your
homework peri. and dont dismiss it untill you witnessed competent
officials enforcing it.


NOW GET ON BACK TO THAT BLOG AND STAY THE FUCK OFF RSD.......unless
you got somthing to communicat to the membership that isnt from a
complete SPIRIT ZEALOT perspective.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51955 is a reply to message #51949] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joaqman
Messages: 115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 2:21 pm, Andrew Olson <rebelnug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, by the rules, that actually was a travel, right? Because
> the disc was out of bounds and he either didn't check it in
> or he didn't establish his pivot foot on the sideline or
> both.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

That sort of travel has to be called when the infraction occurs, not
after the winning goal is caught. Eli pivots on his left foot a
second or two before he throws, they'd have to call it then. What's
to stop Cultimate from changing the result of the game if they chose
to?
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51956 is a reply to message #51955] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T H
Messages: 1142
Registered: July 2009
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Senior Member
joaqman wrote on Mon, 08 February 2010 17:42
On Feb 8, 2:21 pm, Andrew Olson <rebelnug...@gmail.com[/email]> wrote:
> So, by the rules, that actually was a travel, right? Because
> the disc was out of bounds and he either didn't check it in
> or he didn't establish his pivot foot on the sideline or
> both.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

That sort of travel has to be called when the infraction occurs, not
after the winning goal is caught. Eli pivots on his left foot a
second or two before he throws, they'd have to call it then. What's
to stop Cultimate from changing the result of the game if they chose
to?


the same thing that is keeping the team that called the travel from taking it back and conceding the victory. . .

nothing.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51957 is a reply to message #51949] Mon, 08 February 2010 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 5:21 pm, Andrew Olson <rebelnug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, by the rules, that actually was a travel, right? Because
> the disc was out of bounds and he either didn't check it in
> or he didn't establish his pivot foot on the sideline or
> both.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

My personal opinion on the rules issue:

Just to clarify, the rules don't require a check. A check only
happens after a stoppage of play.

To put a live disc (like walking the disc from O.B. to the line), you
need to establish a pivot at the right spot and touch the disc to the
ground.

In this case, it looks like the thrower places his foot (likely on the
line) and then leans over and picks up the disc. There's never any
confusion as to whether the disc is in play. The thrower is not
gaining any momentum. The marker begins marking and stalling right
away. All of the purposes of the requirement to touch the disc to the
ground have been accomplished.

If that was the basis for the travel call, then that is even worse
than just being wrong/dishonest about a dragging foot. At least a
cheater knows he's cheating. A rules weenie thinks he's somehow right
in behaving how he's behaving.

-Colin
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51959 is a reply to message #51955] Mon, 08 February 2010 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alex Korb
Messages: 25
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
When I first saw this video I thought it was a totally bogus travel
call. I watched the throwers pivot foot very closely and it did not
move. However, if the disc was out of bounds, which it looks like it
was, then he was supposed to ground check it. And whether the disc
was out of bounds or on the line the thrower is supposed to establish
his pivot foot on the line. When Joaq says the thrower pivots a
second or 2 before the throw, it's really only a tiny step. His big
pivot is pretty much as he throws. A defender likely wouldn't notice
this small pivot. The defense can't call travel until the thrower
pivots, and the thrower didn't pivot clearly until just as he was
throwing. If he had chosen to use his right foot as his pivot, then
this wouldn't have been a travel, but as soon as he decided to make
his left foot the pivot, and his left foot was not on the line, then
it's a travel. I change my viewing of this from "bogus call" to
"exactly the kind of call one should expect on a huck, and definitely
at double-game point." If the thrower wants to avoid such foul calls
then make sure to place his pivot foot on the line. -Alex


As an aside: I think clearly lined fields are more important than
observers for reducing arguments.



On Feb 8, 2:42 pm, Joaq <joaq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2:21 pm, Andrew Olson <rebelnug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So, by the rules, that actually was a travel, right? Because
> > the disc was out of bounds and he either didn't check it in
> > or he didn't establish his pivot foot on the sideline or
> > both.
>
> > --
> > Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
>
> That sort of travel has to be called when the infraction occurs, not
> after the winning goal is caught.  Eli pivots on his left foot a
> second or two before he throws, they'd have to call it then.  What's
> to stop Cultimate from changing the result of the game if they chose
> to?
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51960 is a reply to message #51956] Mon, 08 February 2010 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bet4v
Messages: 6
Registered: February 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Junior Member
I absolutely do not want to cut down on total number of travel calls. I want to make sure that a uniform standard is applied to travel calls in a given game. I mean, does anyone honestly think that an observer ("showing great hustle", as Mike G would say) placed a handful of yards away from the thrower has a worse perspective than a marker whose head naturally turns every time that disc gets released?

I see an awful lot of travels get called by markers who look down a half second late. And I don't care what's absolutely a travel or not- if I watch 2 consecutive NBA games, I can guarantee that the definition of a foul changes, game to game. Adjusting to your observer is part of the game when you have an impartial third party, and it's easily accomplished. You also have the added benefit of knowing that the other team has the same standard applied. Sure, I hope some kind of training gets put in place, but this really seems like a no-brainer to me.

I got to play in the ACC Championships last year, the first time I had played with active travels. It made the game less contentious, more fair, and more fun. Look at the feedback coming out of the 8's- an overwhelming majority of college players who have the opportunity to play with active travels agree that it improves the game. I am pretty sure the UOA doesn't have some intensive video-laden training course to achieve that result.

I mean, I'm in favor of observers taking control of the game more with liberal use of TMF's, but again, this really just seems simple. I see nothing wrong with conceding that the observer could call fairer travels than my opponent, whose attention should (ostensibly) be focused elsewhere while we're playing.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51961 is a reply to message #51945] Mon, 08 February 2010 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndrewZill
Messages: 163
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 3:54 pm, Peri Kurshan <pkurs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree- I think if your goal is to reduce the number of travel calls,
> then more heavy-handed TMF use is a much better way to achieve that
> goal than active travel calls, which while they might reduce some
> bogus calls, will also introduce a whole lot of other non-bogus (but
> unimportant) calls that players wouldn't call themselves.

Maybe instead of hypothesizing how active travel calls would affect
the number of travel calls in a game maybe you should ask someone like
Mike G who has run a tournament with active travel calls and find out
how it affects the number of travels called.
Re: Travel? You be the judge... (Oregon vs. Carleton universe) [message #51963 is a reply to message #51961] Mon, 08 February 2010 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Feb 8, 6:49 pm, Heinousboy <andrewz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 3:54 pm, Peri Kurshan <pkurs...@gmail.com> wrote:.

>
> > I agree- I think if your goal is to reduce the number of travel calls,
> > then more heavy-handed TMF use is a much better way to achieve that
> > goal than active travel calls, which while they might reduce some
> > bogus calls, will also introduce a whole lot of other non-bogus (but
> > unimportant) calls that players wouldn't call themselves.
>
> Maybe instead of hypothesizing how active travel calls would affect
> the number of travel calls in a game maybe you should ask someone like
> Mike G who has run a tournament with active travel calls and find out
> how it affects the number of travels called.

the obvious eludes her. maybe she didnt notice this past weekends
football superbowl game featured FULLY ACTIVE REFS either.
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