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The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51413] Sat, 30 January 2010 16:58 Go to next message
Bountiful Garden Foun
Messages: 528
Registered: August 2009
Senior Member
The April Fools tournament has been famous for being an Ultimate
Frisbee theme teams and for players to play with players they don't
get to play with very often. Alter Boys, Matza Balls & Downtown are
some of the more well known ones.

Its time to rise above differences in silly things like race, creed,
religion
or mental health.

The time has come.

To rise above our prejudices and move beyond differences in our MMPI
scores evolve.

The time has come to field a team based on the Motion Offense theme.

Because Fools is traditional a tournament that people play on teams
other than their own primary team, it's the perfect tournament to
bring together a team based on ideology rather than the color of my
skin or my gender.

My question to you is do you want to play on your high school reunion
team or do you want
to make history?

If you're in the bay area (or even L.A.) and are interested, shoot me
an email. We will be practicing weekends until then to all get on the
same page.

Frank
www.z-boyz.org
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51445 is a reply to message #51413] Sun, 31 January 2010 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Frank, If other people had been trying to wipe out your people for the
last couple of thousand years, you might have a different perspective
on ethnicity/religion.

The Red Sea could not stop us, and neither will your motion offense.

-Jacob

Matza Balls
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51447 is a reply to message #51413] Sun, 31 January 2010 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bountiful Garden Foun
Messages: 528
Registered: August 2009
Senior Member
On Jan 31, 5:31 pm, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank, If other people had been trying to wipe out your people for the
> last couple of thousand years, you might have a different perspective
> on ethnicity/religion.
>
> The Red Sea could not stop us, and neither will your motion offense.
>
> -Jacob
>
> Matza Balls

You guys do not stand a chance.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51450 is a reply to message #51413] Sun, 31 January 2010 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bountiful Garden Foun
Messages: 528
Registered: August 2009
Senior Member
On Jan 31, 5:31 pm, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank, If other people had been trying to wipe out your people for the
> last couple of thousand years, you might have a different perspective
> on ethnicity/religion.

Jacob,

Mentally Ill people have been the victims of persecution a lot longer
than Jews have even existed.

It's time to Rise Above all that.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51455 is a reply to message #51450] Sun, 31 January 2010 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Seth Wiggins
Messages: 3
Registered: August 2009
Junior Member
what the fuck?

On Jan 31, 6:27 pm, Crazy <fhuguen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 5:31 pm, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Frank, If other people had been trying to wipe out your people for the
> > last couple of thousand years, you might have a different perspective
> > on ethnicity/religion.
>
> Jacob,
>
> Mentally Ill people have been the victims of persecution a lot longer
> than Jews have even existed.
>
> It's time to Rise Above all that.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51456 is a reply to message #51455] Sun, 31 January 2010 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobus
Messages: 305
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
It's hard to Rise Above when you're ROTFL...

No offense to anyone, but that was one of the funniest threads I've
ever read on RSD.



On Feb 1, 1:39 pm, Seth Wiggins <sethwigg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> what the fuck?
>
> On Jan 31, 6:27 pm, Crazy <fhuguen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 5:31 pm, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Frank, If other people had been trying to wipe out your people for the
> > > last couple of thousand years, you might have a different perspective
> > > on ethnicity/religion.
>
> > Jacob,
>
> > Mentally Ill people have been the victims of persecution a lot longer
> > than Jews have even existed.
>
> > It's time to Rise Above all that.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51458 is a reply to message #51455] Sun, 31 January 2010 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bountiful Garden Foun
Messages: 528
Registered: August 2009
Senior Member
On Jan 31, 9:39 pm, Seth Wiggins <sethwigg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> what the fuck?
>
> On Jan 31, 6:27 pm, Crazy <fhuguen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 31, 5:31 pm, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Frank, If other people had been trying to wipe out your people for the
> > > last couple of thousand years, you might have a different perspective
> > > on ethnicity/religion.
>
> > Jacob,
>
> > Mentally Ill people have been the victims of persecution a lot longer
> > than Jews have even existed.
>
> > It's time to Rise Above all that.

What the fuck?

That's what I say when I see that a group would want to play together
at a tournament not because of skills, ideology or geography but
because of a shared persecution complex ("If other people had been
trying to wipe out your people for the last couple of thousand years")
like the Matza Balls do. I was going to have a team called the
Supreme Aryans with only Caucasian players allowed to play but I think
its wrong to exclude players based on the color of their skin or the
spiritual beliefs of your ancestors.

People seem to think I'm crazy (and judge me because of it) and so I
was just trying to point out that Jews are not alone in being
persecuted. When you play the victim, you give away all your power.

Rise Above is intended to be a team that is not based on religion,
race (like downtown brown), sexual orientation, persecution complexes,
or mental health. It is a team based on a shared desire to play a
different style of offense. Do you have a problem with that?
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51468 is a reply to message #51458] Mon, 01 February 2010 07:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Frank: "What the fuck? That's what I say when I see that a group would
want to play together at a tournament not because of skills, ideology
or geography but because of a shared persecution complex ('If other
people had been trying to wipe out your people for the last couple of
thousand years') like the Matza Balls do.  

It is true that some Jews have a persecution complex, just as some
goyem (non-Jews) have persecution complexes . Whether Matza Balls
play together "because of a shared persecution complex" is not so
clear. I can't speak with absolute authority as to my teammates'
motives, but I'm pretty sure that we play together largely as a form
of acknowledging our shared heritage. That a big part of this
heritage includes persecution is not so much a complex as it is
historical fact, deniers notwithstanding. As this historical
persecution has played a role in shaping Jewish culture, it is not
realistic or fair to expect us to celebrate this (sometimes sub)
culture without a discussion and awareness of persecution. To us,
ignoring persecution would not be to "rise above" so much as it would
be to erase and disrespect.

It would be interesting to inquire as to how many of the Matza Balls
feel that they have been or are persecuted for being Jewish. I have
certainly encountered antisemitism (a term I dislike because "Semite"
applies to groups besides Jews), but have never felt persecuted.
Still, I, like my teammates, owe my relatively easy existence to the
fact that my ancestors survived centuries of persecution. That we
take pride in this survival is legitimate as long as we do not take
credit for it.

"I was going to have a team called the Supreme Aryans with only
Caucasian players allowed to play but I think its wrong to exclude
players based on the color of their skin or the spiritual beliefs of
your ancestors."

This would be a bit different than Matza Balls because of the use of
the term "Supreme." There certainly are Jews (and probably a few
goyem) who believe in Jewish supremacy, but this philosophy isn't
really a part of the Matza Ball agenda. That it would be frowned upon
to just have a non-"supreme", all Caucasian (and presumably goy) team
does indeed reflect a double-standard; the kind which I wish my fellow
left-wing people would discuss thoughtfully rather than dismiss out of
hand. Independent of the ethics involved in forming such a team, it
would be less interesting than Downtown Brown or Matza Balls simply
because there are so many more Caucasian Christians playing ultimate
than Jews or people of color. What about a team entirely of players
of Scandinavian descent? I think people would be cool with that.
There have been all-redhead teams and all-Catholic teams.

"People seem to think I'm crazy (and judge me because of it) and so I
was just trying to point out that Jews are not alone in being
persecuted."

Why would you bother to point this out? Did you overhear someone on
Matza Balls state that Jews are the only persecuted group? And are
you seriously claiming that you are persecuted? If so, isn't your
above use of the term "persecution complex" a bit ironic?

"When you play the victim, you give away all your power."

There is a difference between acknowledging that your ancestors were
persecuted and claiming that you are victimized by that persecution,
although the former does often lead to the latter. That you are
apparently unaware that feelings relating to oppression can
essentially be inherited is a testament not so much to lack of
oppression of your ancestors as it is your lack of ability to relate
to those whose experiences are different than yours. In other words,
I'm not accusing you of bigotry; I'm accusing you of narcissism. In
any event, there is a two-step process for those who "play the victim"
with regard to historical oppression. Step one is acknowledging the
oppression. Step two is forming a belief that the oppression will
necessarily prevent you from succeeding. I am aware of few Jews who
engage in step two, although most engage in step one.

"Rise Above is intended to be a team that is not based on religion,
race (like downtown brown), sexual orientation, persecution complexes,
or mental health.  It is a team based on a shared desire to play a
different style of offense.  Do you have a problem with that?"

I don't, but I should probably let Seth Wiggins answer, as the
question was posed to him.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51475 is a reply to message #51468] Mon, 01 February 2010 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scpoulos14
Messages: 133
Registered: December 2009
Senior Member
you're living in the past man...rise above
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51478 is a reply to message #51468] Mon, 01 February 2010 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bountiful Garden Foun
Messages: 528
Registered: August 2009
Senior Member
> There is a difference between acknowledging that your ancestors were
> persecuted and claiming that you are victimized by that persecution,
> although the former does often lead to the latter.

You were the one who brought it up. While some within any community
are capable of not being afflicted, a cultural wide perception of
persecution will in general lead to an inherent sense of
victimization. Agreed.

> That you are
> apparently unaware that feelings relating to oppression can
> essentially be inherited is a testament not so much to lack of
> oppression of your ancestors as it is your lack of ability to relate
> to those whose experiences are different than yours.

It would appear that you've missed my point completely. I can relate
to experiences of oppression and I completely concur that feelings of
oppression are passed along from one generation to the next.

'Who hasn't been oppressed?' is my point.

Are you so blind that you've never heard of the Huguenots? Where the
hell do you think my ancestors came from Jacob? Part of the reason a
lot of people have not heard of the Huguenots was BECAUSE they were
wiped from the planet. Give us all a break. At least you guys
survived. Many, many countless tribes have been wiped from the
planet. But please, go ahead an remind us one more time of your
plight.

> In other words,
> I'm not accusing you of bigotry; I'm accusing you of narcissism.

I'm suggesting that perhaps you are both.

As for my narcissism, that is something I openly admit to so you
needn't accuse me of it. I'm working diligently on it.

The opposite of insanity is a fully awakened consciousness. Who out
there is an enlightened being? Good on you.

> In
> any event, there is a two-step process for those who "play the victim"
> with regard to historical oppression. Step one is acknowledging the
> oppression. Step two is forming a belief that the oppression will
> necessarily prevent you from succeeding. I am aware of few Jews who
> engage in step two, although most engage in step one.

I would suggest that there are many collectives on this planet that
carry with them the burden of victimization, in one form or another.
The Jewish community is just one of these.

I do not concur with you description of step 2. Playing the victim is
about placing blame and not taking responsibility. People can blame
and not take responsibility and become successful and in fact, many
become very successful skillfully managing these two things and
succeed because of them.

Victim consciousness is extremely prevalent here in the West and the
source of egoic distortions and mental distress. It's also one of the
hardest things to see in our own selves and work on removing.

Culturally on this planet, where is there Guilt (with a capitol G)?
Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Japanese, Catholics, many Hindu traditions,
are all famous for their guilt. Where there is guilt, there is blame
and where there is blame, there is victim consciousness. Again to
quote you, feelings tend to be passed along generationally.

> Whether Matza Balls
> play together "because of a shared persecution complex" is not so
> clear. I can't speak with absolute authority as to my teammates'
> motives, but I'm pretty sure that we play together largely as a form
> of acknowledging our shared heritage. That a big part of this
> heritage includes persecution is not so much a complex as it is
> historical fact, deniers notwithstanding.

Deniers? I would say that out of all the various collectives around
the globe that could be categorized as oppressed, the Jewish community
has undeniably gotten the most mileage out of theirs and anyone who's
got the Balls to dispute this is labeled a denier.

Women? Ugandans? 25 million Russions under Joseph Stalin (anyone
care to chime in on Joseph's ancestry?)? Native American Indians?
Africans? Cambodians? Homosexuals? Irish? Hispanics? Catholics?
The list can go on for pages, can it not?

What I personally know about the Matza Balls from experience is that
they've long been considered by many to be not very likable and I'm
certain this has nothing to do with their belonging to the Jewish
Community.

Who wouldn't think its great the people get together to celebrate
their shared heritage?

My experience of the Balls is that they are the biggest group of Jerks
to ever step on an Ultimate field.

Go ahead and slap me with the perfunctory anti-semite comment and
chalk it up to my bigotry. It has nothing to do with that and in
fact, it is a convenient form of reverse bigotry or reverse racism to
say "they just don't like us because we're jewish" instead of actually
relating from mine and the many others perspective who've had the same
shared displeasure of playing against you guys and owning up to the
fact that there is something to it.

Could it possibly be that all these things ARE related and that in
fact we can discuss them without making slurs?

Is it not possible that it isn't just a coincidence that a team of
players derived out of the world's most storied (not necessarily
biggest) oppressed people is also a team of argumentative jerks who
make bad calls? Do you find this to be a complete coincidence or just
accusations coming from one of your oppressors, bigots, racists or
deniers?

Is it possible for you to relate to the fact that by and large, there
are a great deal of people who dislike playing against an Ultimate
Frisbee team that is comprised of Jewish Males? Who's the narcissist
now?

You guys are probably completely unaware at how universally disliked
you are. Cue up Carly Simon...

> To us,
> ignoring persecution would not be to "rise above" so much as it would
> be to erase and disrespect.

You seem to do a pretty good job of ignoring all other persecution and
putting the spotlight on your own.

Just look at the flash point of this thread. I'm making statements
that are not favorable to the Jewish community and everybody reading
knows what that means. I'll be branded an anti-semite and a racists.
What other oppressed collective on the planet has so much polarization
attached to it that to question it automatically halts the
conversation?

> Why would you bother to point this out? Did you overhear someone on
> Matza Balls state that Jews are the only persecuted group? And are
> you seriously claiming that you are persecuted? If so, isn't your
> above use of the term "persecution complex" a bit ironic?

Yes and no. Hopefully by now you're able to relate with me a little
more.

I'm saying that in general, as you've so eloquently stated, the
psychology of oppression are carried forward from one generation to
the next.

Humanity itself suffers from an endemic sense of oppression. You show
me a dysfunctional home and I'll show you oppressive parents. Do you
really believe that just because someone is Caucasian that they have
no lineage of oppression in their tradition? Asked another way, what
percentage of the white population do you think has oppression in
their genealogy? I suspect its over 90% but what do I know?

I believe that what I'm saying is that as long as the Jewish community
identifies itself with a sense of oppression, those feelings of
victimization will persist.

I had suggested that it's time to Rise Above things like gender, race,
religion, mental health and of all those groups and sub groups from
within them, typically it was a Jewish person who threw out the victim
trump card. Can you relate?

In other words, I've just suggested that the Jewish Community is
insane. But I've also suggested that just about every other
collective on the planet with a shared sense of victimization also
experiences mass insanity as well. Each culture's insanity has their
own flavor. Humanity itself must Rise Above all this if we are ever
to evolve.

The Ultimate Frisbee community is no different. Completely insane.

I would really like some help with demonstrating the motion offense.
I know that it has been my own poor mental health, most notably my
narcissism, that has alienated so many people and made them not want
to have anything to do with me.

However, whether it is at April Fools or elsewhere, your excuse of not
participating because "Frank is Crazy" is the Ultimate irony. This
offense is the shit and it's far more 'sane' than anything else out
there.



On Feb 1, 7:19 am, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank: "What the fuck? That's what I say when I see that a group would
> want to play together at a tournament not because of skills, ideology
> or geography but because of a shared persecution complex ('If other
> people had been trying to wipe out your people for the last couple of
> thousand years') like the Matza Balls do.
>
> It is true that some Jews have a persecution complex, just as some
> goyem (non-Jews) have persecution complexes . As this historical
> persecution has played a role in shaping Jewish culture, it is not
> realistic or fair to expect us to celebrate this (sometimes sub)
> culture without a discussion and awareness of persecution. To us,
> ignoring persecution would not be to "rise above" so much as it would
> be to erase and disrespect.
>
> It would be interesting to inquire as to how many of the Matza Balls
> feel that they have been or are persecuted for being Jewish. I have
> certainly encountered antisemitism (a term I dislike because "Semite"
> applies to groups besides Jews), but have never felt persecuted.
> Still, I, like my teammates, owe my relatively easy existence to the
> fact that my ancestors survived centuries of persecution. That we
> take pride in this survival is legitimate as long as we do not take
> credit for it.
>
> "I was going to have a team called the Supreme Aryans with only
> Caucasian players allowed to play but I think its wrong to exclude
> players based on the color of their skin or the spiritual beliefs of
> your ancestors."
>
> This would be a bit different than Matza Balls because of the use of
> the term "Supreme." There certainly are Jews (and probably a few
> goyem) who believe in Jewish supremacy, but this philosophy isn't
> really a part of the Matza Ball agenda. That it would be frowned upon
> to just have a non-"supreme", all Caucasian (and presumably goy) team
> does indeed reflect a double-standard; the kind which I wish my fellow
> left-wing people would discuss thoughtfully rather than dismiss out of
> hand. Independent of the ethics involved in forming such a team, it
> would be less interesting than Downtown Brown or Matza Balls simply
> because there are so many more Caucasian Christians playing ultimate
> than Jews or people of color. What about a team entirely of players
> of Scandinavian descent? I think people would be cool with that.
> There have been all-redhead teams and all-Catholic teams.
>
> "People seem to think I'm crazy (and judge me because of it) and so I
> was just trying to point out that Jews are not alone in being
> persecuted."
>
> Why would you bother to point this out? Did you overhear someone on
> Matza Balls state that Jews are the only persecuted group? And are
> you seriously claiming that you are persecuted? If so, isn't your
> above use of the term "persecution complex" a bit ironic?
>
> "When you play the victim, you give away all your power."
>

> "Rise Above is intended to be a team that is not based on religion,
> race (like downtown brown), sexual orientation, persecution complexes,
> or mental health. It is a team based on a shared desire to play a
> different style of offense. Do you have a problem with that?"
>
> I don't, but I should probably let Seth Wiggins answer, as the
> question was posed to him.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51479 is a reply to message #51478] Mon, 01 February 2010 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
throw
Messages: 743
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Frank...

Today is actually February 1st...not April 1st.


Lance Marput
www.thisisultimate.com
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51480 is a reply to message #51478] Mon, 01 February 2010 11:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
"You were the one who brought it up. "

Not exactly. You were the one who brought it up by describing playing
on an all-Jew team as "silly." I rebutted this by pointing out one
reason why we do it.

"While some within any community are capable of not being afflicted, a
cultural wide perception of persecution will in general lead to an
inherent sense of victimization."

It's not an affliction to know your history. It is not perception
that Jews have been persecuted in the past; it is fact. What is
certainly open to debate is the degree to which Jews in the
contemporary U.S. are persecuted. I think we have it pretty easy,
thanks largely to the struggles of those who came before us. There
are still plenty of people in the U.S. who harbor bad feelings toward
Jews; they just don't have the power to act on these feelings.

"It would appear that you've missed my point completely. I can relate
to experiences of oppression and I completely concur that feelings of
oppression are passed along from one generation to the next. 'Who
hasn't been oppressed?' is my point. Are you so blind that you've
never heard of the Huguenots? Where the hell do you think my
ancestors came from Jacob?"

Forgive me for missing your point entirely, and thank you for
clarifying this point.

"Part of the reason a lot of people have not heard of the Huguenots
was BECAUSE they were wiped from the planet."

The Huguenots were not wiped from the planet, although they did have
it pretty rough. It looks like they've been left alone for the most
part since the late 18th century.

"Give us all a break."

Nope.

"At least you guys survived. Many, many countless tribes have been
wiped from the planet."

Good point.

"But please, go ahead an remind us one more time of your plight."

I never stated that anyone on Matza Balls has a plight. In fact, I
stated the opposite.

"The opposite of insanity is a fully awakened consciousness."

No, the opposite of insanity is refraining from believing in
impossible things; like "fully awakened consciousness."

"Who out there is an enlightened being?"

Neither of us, pal.

"I would suggest that there are many collectives on this planet that
carry with them the burden of victimization, in one form or another.
The Jewish community is just one of these."

This is a fact. I did not suggest anything to the contrary.

"Playing the victim is about placing blame and not taking
responsibility. People can blame and not take responsibility and
become successful and in fact, many become very successful skillfully
managing these two things and succeed because of them."

Would you please specify exactly what the Jews have failed to take
responsibility for?

"Victim consciousness is extremely prevalent here in the West and the
source of egoic distortions and mental distress. It's also one of the
hardest things to see in our own selves and work on removing."

I agree with you somewhat here, but I don't think the solution is to
pretend that history of persecution has any relevance.

"Culturally on this planet, where is there Guilt (with a capitol G)?
Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Japanese, Catholics, many Hindu traditions,
are all famous for their guilt. Where there is guilt, there is blame
and where there is blame, there is victim consciousness. Again to
quote you, feelings tend to be passed along generationally."

Actually, guilt and blame often exist independently, and many who feel
guilty blame only themselves, so this contradicts what you said
earlier about those who "play the victim" refusing to take
responsibility.

"Deniers? I would say that out of all the various collectives around
the globe that could be categorized as oppressed, the Jewish community
has undeniably gotten the most mileage out of theirs"

I agree.

"and anyone who's got the Balls to dispute this is labeled a denier."

No, not exactly. Deniers are those who deny that the oppression
occurred, not those who simply observe that the oppression of Jews has
been more widely acknowledged than that of other groups. Can you see
the difference between these two things?

"Women? Ugandans? 25 million Russions under Joseph Stalin (anyone
care to chime in on Joseph's ancestry?)? Native American Indians?
Africans? Cambodians? Homosexuals? Irish? Hispanics? Catholics?
The list can go on for pages, can it not?"

This is a good point. I think there is a difference between:
1) Being killed by your own leader for political reasons (Russians
under Stalin, Cambodians)
2) Being killed by those who want to steal your resources (Native
Americans, Africans)
3) Being killed for your religious beliefs/ethnicity (Jews, Armenians,
Tutsis, etc.)

However, any and all of the above three can be and have been
combined. It is pretty inconsistent to talk so much about the
holocaust and so little about the many millions of Africans killed for
resources, like the Congolese just a generation before the holocaust.
I think this is really an argument to shed more light on injustice,
not a good argument to ignore those of which we have already been made
aware.

"What I personally know about the Matza Balls from experience is that
they've long been considered by many to be not very likable and I'm
certain this has nothing to do with their belonging to the Jewish
Community."

Then why bring it up here?

"My experience of the Balls is that they are the biggest group of
Jerks to ever step on an Ultimate field."

OK.

"Go ahead and slap me with the perfunctory anti-semite comment and
chalk it up to my bigotry. It has nothing to do with that and in
fact, it is a convenient form of reverse bigotry or reverse racism to
say "they just don't like us because we're jewish" instead of actually
relating from mine and the many others perspective who've had the same
shared displeasure of playing against you guys and owning up to the
fact that there is something to it."

No, we've got some jerks on our team, I'll give you that. I'm
assuming no one you talked to had a problem with me.

"Could it possibly be that all these things ARE related and that in
fact we can discuss them without making slurs?"

Uh-oh. Here we go ....

"Is it not possible that it isn't just a coincidence that a team of
players derived out of the world's most storied (not necessarily
biggest) oppressed people is also a team of argumentative jerks who
make bad calls?"

Nice use of the double negative, you stupid goy. Oops. There I go
proving your point. Damn.

"Do you find this to be a complete coincidence or just accusations
coming from one of your oppressors, bigots, racists or deniers?"

Well, it could be both. Either way, I don't care. Come watch us play
in the finals.

"Is it possible for you to relate to the fact that by and large, there
are a great deal of people who dislike playing against an Ultimate
Frisbee team that is comprised of Jewish Males?"

This is a fair question. Me personally; I talk way too much smack
about other ethnic groups to get mad about this, although I'm not sure
if I completely "relate" to it.

"Who's the narcissist now?"

Am I a narcissist, or am I just an argumentative jerk who makes bad
calls?

"You guys are probably completely unaware at how universally disliked
you are. Cue up Carly Simon..."

Carly Simon? You mean the theme song from The Spy Who Loved Me:
"Nobody Does it Better ... "?

"You seem to do a pretty good job of ignoring all other persecution
and putting the spotlight on your own."

False. I supported Downtown Brown (although it was a bummer getting
crushed by them last year).

"Just look at the flash point of this thread. I'm making statements
that are not favorable to the Jewish community and everybody reading
knows what that means. I'll be branded an anti-semite and a racists."

You actually haven't said that much that was unfavorable to Jews,
other than hinting that there was some link between players not liking
the guys on Matza Balls and the same guys being Jewish, a position I'd
like you to elaborate on.

"What other oppressed collective on the planet has so much
polarization attached to it that to question it automatically halts
the conversation?"

Who's halting the conversation? What am I, chopped liver? I'm
engaging you. Do you want a foot rub, too?

"Do you really believe that just because someone is Caucasian that
they have no lineage of oppression in their tradition?"

I do not believe that I have never said that.

"Asked another way, what percentage of the white population do you
think has oppression in their genealogy? I suspect its over 90% but
what do I know?"

Are you suggesting that all groups have been equally oppressed, or
that since most groups have been oppressed, we should treat the
oppression of all equally, regardless of variation?

"I believe that what I'm saying is that as long as the Jewish
community identifies itself with a sense of oppression, those feelings
of victimization will persist."

Are you saying that the guys on Matza Balls are jerks because we feel
victimized?

"I had suggested that it's time to Rise Above things like gender,
race, religion, mental health and of all those groups and sub groups
from within them,"

These are not things to rise above, they are things to understand and
experience.

"typically it was a Jewish person who threw out the victim trump
card. Can you relate?"

Stop picking on me, you anti-Semite!

"In other words, I've just suggested that the Jewish Community is
insane."

Insane like a fox.

"But I've also suggested that just about every other collective on the
planet with a shared sense of victimization also
experiences mass insanity as well."

I don't think you really understand what insanity is.

"Each culture's insanity has their own flavor."

OK.

"Humanity itself must Rise Above all this if we are ever to evolve."

Don't hold your breath.

"The Ultimate Frisbee community is no different. Completely insane."

Keep going.

"I would really like some help with demonstrating the motion offense."

I'm really glad we ended up back here.

"I know that it has been my own poor mental health, most notably my
narcissism, that has alienated so many people and made them not want
to have anything to do with me."

That's a cop out. I'm a narcissist and I have lots of friends.

"However, whether it is at April Fools or elsewhere, your excuse of
not participating because 'Frank is Crazy' is the Ultimate irony.
This offense is the shit and it's far more 'sane' than anything else
out there."

Jews need to recognize the motion offense. I hear you.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51484 is a reply to message #51480] Mon, 01 February 2010 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gabers20
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
"3000 years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Kofax. You're
damn right, I'm livin' in the past."

Gabe

On Feb 1, 11:44 am, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "You were the one who brought it up. "
>
> Not exactly.  You were the one who brought it up by describing playing
> on an all-Jew team as "silly."  I rebutted this by pointing out one
> reason why we do it.
>
> "While some within any community are capable of not being afflicted, a
> cultural wide perception of persecution will in general lead to an
> inherent sense of victimization."
>
> It's not an affliction to know your history.  It is not perception
> that Jews have been persecuted in the past; it is fact.  What is
> certainly open to debate is the degree to which Jews in the
> contemporary U.S. are persecuted.  I think we have it pretty easy,
> thanks largely to the struggles of those who came before us.  There
> are still plenty of people in the U.S. who harbor bad feelings toward
> Jews; they just don't have the power to act on these feelings.
>
> "It would appear that you've missed my point completely.  I can relate
> to experiences of oppression and I completely concur that feelings of
> oppression are passed along from one generation to the next.  'Who
> hasn't been oppressed?' is my point. Are you so blind that you've
> never heard of the Huguenots?  Where the hell do you think my
> ancestors came from Jacob?"
>
> Forgive me for missing your point entirely, and thank you for
> clarifying this point.
>
> "Part of the reason a lot of people have not heard of the Huguenots
> was BECAUSE they were wiped from the planet."
>
> The Huguenots were not wiped from the planet, although they did have
> it pretty rough.  It looks like they've been left alone for the most
> part since the late 18th century.
>
> "Give us all a break."
>
> Nope.
>
> "At least you guys survived.  Many, many countless tribes have been
> wiped from the planet."
>
> Good point.
>
> "But please, go ahead an remind us one more time of your plight."
>
> I never stated that anyone on Matza Balls has a plight.  In fact, I
> stated the opposite.
>
> "The opposite of insanity is a fully awakened consciousness."
>
> No, the opposite of insanity is refraining from believing in
> impossible things; like "fully awakened consciousness."
>
> "Who out there is an enlightened being?"
>
> Neither of us, pal.
>
> "I would suggest that there are many collectives on this planet that
> carry with them the burden of victimization, in one form or another.
> The Jewish community is just one of these."
>
> This is a fact.  I did not suggest anything to the contrary.
>
> "Playing the victim is about placing blame and not taking
> responsibility.  People can blame and not take responsibility and
> become successful and in fact, many become very successful skillfully
> managing these two things and succeed because of them."
>
> Would you please specify exactly what the Jews have failed to take
> responsibility for?
>
> "Victim consciousness is extremely prevalent here in the West and the
> source of egoic distortions and mental distress. It's also one of the
> hardest things to see in our own selves and work on removing."
>
> I agree with you somewhat here, but I don't think the solution is to
> pretend that history of persecution has any relevance.
>
> "Culturally on this planet, where is there Guilt (with a capitol G)?
> Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Japanese, Catholics, many Hindu traditions,
> are all famous for their guilt.  Where there is guilt, there is blame
> and where there is blame, there is victim consciousness.  Again to
> quote you, feelings tend to be passed along generationally."
>
> Actually, guilt and blame often exist independently, and many who feel
> guilty blame only themselves, so this contradicts what you said
> earlier about those who "play the victim" refusing to take
> responsibility.
>
> "Deniers?  I would say that out of all the various collectives around
> the globe that could be categorized as oppressed, the Jewish community
> has undeniably gotten the most mileage out of theirs"
>
> I agree.
>
> "and anyone who's got the Balls to dispute this is labeled a denier."
>
> No, not exactly.  Deniers are those who deny that the oppression
> occurred, not those who simply observe that the oppression of Jews has
> been more widely acknowledged than that of other groups.  Can you see
> the difference between these two things?
>
> "Women?  Ugandans?  25 million Russions under Joseph Stalin (anyone
> care to chime in on Joseph's ancestry?)?  Native American Indians?
> Africans?  Cambodians?  Homosexuals?  Irish?  Hispanics?  Catholics?
> The list can go on for pages, can it not?"
>
> This is a good point.  I think there is a difference between:
> 1) Being killed by your own leader for political reasons (Russians
> under Stalin, Cambodians)
> 2) Being killed by those who want to steal your resources (Native
> Americans, Africans)
> 3) Being killed for your religious beliefs/ethnicity (Jews, Armenians,
> Tutsis, etc.)
>
> However, any and all of the above three can be and have been
> combined.  It is pretty inconsistent to talk so much about the
> holocaust and so little about the many millions of Africans killed for
> resources, like the Congolese just a generation before the holocaust.
> I think this is really an argument to shed more light on injustice,
> not a good argument to ignore those of which we have already been made
> aware.
>
> "What I personally know about the Matza Balls from experience is that
> they've long been considered by many to be not very likable and I'm
> certain this has nothing to do with their belonging to the Jewish
> Community."
>
> Then why bring it up here?
>
> "My experience of the Balls is that they are the biggest group of
> Jerks to ever step on an Ultimate field."
>
> OK.
>
> "Go ahead and slap me with the perfunctory anti-semite comment and
> chalk it up to my bigotry.  It has nothing to do with that and in
> fact, it is a convenient form of reverse bigotry or reverse racism to
> say "they just don't like us because we're jewish" instead of actually
> relating from mine and the many others perspective who've had the same
> shared displeasure of playing against you guys and owning up to the
> fact that there is something to it."
>
> No, we've got some jerks on our team, I'll give you that.  I'm
> assuming no one you talked to had a problem with me.
>
> "Could it possibly be that all these things ARE related and that in
> fact we can discuss them without making slurs?"
>
> Uh-oh.  Here we go ....
>
> "Is it not possible that it isn't just a coincidence that a team of
> players derived out of the world's most storied (not necessarily
> biggest) oppressed people is also a team of argumentative jerks who
> make bad calls?"
>
> Nice use of the double negative, you stupid goy.  Oops.  There I go
> proving your point.  Damn.
>
> "Do you find this to be a complete coincidence or just accusations
> coming from one of your oppressors, bigots, racists or deniers?"
>
> Well, it could be both.  Either way, I don't care.  Come watch us play
> in the finals.
>
> "Is it possible for you to relate to the fact that by and large, there
> are a great deal of people who dislike playing against an Ultimate
> Frisbee team that is comprised of Jewish Males?"
>
> This is a fair question.  Me personally; I talk way too much smack
> about other ethnic groups to get mad about this, although I'm not sure
> if I completely "relate" to it.
>
> "Who's the narcissist now?"
>
> Am I a narcissist, or am I just an argumentative jerk who makes bad
> calls?
>
> "You guys are probably completely unaware at how universally disliked
> you are.  Cue up Carly Simon..."
>
> Carly Simon?  You mean the theme song from The Spy Who Loved Me:
> "Nobody Does it Better ... "?
>
> "You seem to do a pretty good job of ignoring all other persecution
> and putting the spotlight on your own."
>
> False.  I supported Downtown Brown (although it was a bummer getting
> crushed by them last year).
>
> "Just look at the flash point of this thread.  I'm making statements
> that are not favorable to the Jewish community and everybody reading
> knows what that means.  I'll be branded an anti-semite and a racists."
>
> You actually haven't said that much that was unfavorable to Jews,
> other than hinting that there was some link between players not liking
> the guys on Matza Balls and the same guys being Jewish, a position I'd
> like you to elaborate on.
>
> "What other oppressed collective on the planet has so much
> polarization attached to it that to question it automatically halts
> the conversation?"
>
> Who's halting the conversation?  What am I, chopped liver?  I'm
> engaging you.  Do you want a foot rub, too?
>
> "Do you really believe that just because someone is Caucasian that
> they have no lineage of oppression in their tradition?"
>
> I do not believe that I have never said that.
>
> "Asked another way, what percentage of the white population do you
> think has oppression in their genealogy?  I suspect its over 90% but
> what do I know?"
>
> Are you suggesting that all groups have been equally oppressed, or
> that since most groups have been oppressed, we should treat the
> oppression of all equally, regardless of variation?
>
> "I believe that what I'm saying is that as long as the Jewish
> community identifies itself with a sense of oppression, those feelings
> of victimization will persist."
>
> Are you saying that the guys on Matza Balls are jerks because we feel
> victimized?
>
> "I had suggested that it's time to Rise Above things like gender,
> race, religion, mental health and of all those groups and sub groups
> from within them,"
>
> These are not things to rise above, they are things to understand and
> experience.
>
> "typically it was a Jewish person who threw out the victim trump
> card.  Can you relate?"
>
> Stop picking on me, you anti-Semite!
>
> "In other words, I've just suggested that the Jewish Community is
> insane."
>
> Insane like a fox.
>
> "But I've also suggested that just about every other collective on the
> planet with a shared sense of victimization also
> experiences mass insanity as well."
>
> I don't think you really understand what insanity is.
>
> "Each culture's insanity has their own flavor."
>
> OK.
>
> "Humanity itself must Rise Above all this if we are ever to evolve."
>
> Don't hold your breath.
>
> "The Ultimate Frisbee community is no different.  Completely insane."
>
> Keep going.
>
> "I would really like some help with demonstrating the motion offense."
> ...
>
> read more »
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51485 is a reply to message #51484] Mon, 01 February 2010 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scpoulos14
Messages: 133
Registered: December 2009
Senior Member
hell yeah Gabe. good call! all water under the bridge!
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51487 is a reply to message #51413] Mon, 01 February 2010 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Dickerson
Messages: 14
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Jan 30, 7:58 pm, Frankie <fhuguen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The April Fools tournament has been famous for being an Ultimate
> Frisbee theme teams and for players to play with players they don't
> get to play with very often.  Alter Boys, Matza Balls & Downtown are
> some of the more well known ones.
>
> Its time to rise above differences in silly things like race, creed,
> religion
> or mental health.
>
> The time has come.
>
> To rise above our prejudices and move beyond differences in our MMPI
> scores evolve.
>
> The time has come to field a team based on the Motion Offense theme.
>
> Because Fools is traditional a tournament that people play on teams
> other than their own primary team, it's the perfect tournament to
> bring together a team based on ideology rather than the color of my
> skin or my gender.
>
> My question to you is do you want to play on your high school reunion
> team or do you want
> to make history?
>
> If you're in the bay area (or even L.A.) and are interested, shoot me
> an email.  We will be practicing weekends until then to all get on the
> same page.
>
> Frankwww.z-boyz.org

My question is, why didn't you just ask if people wanted to play on
your motion offense themed team? why even bring up the other teams in
the first post? also, its frisbee... no one makes history.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51492 is a reply to message #51487] Mon, 01 February 2010 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bri_hoffman
Messages: 2
Registered: February 2010
Junior Member
Elaine Dickinson: Would you like something to read?
Hanging Lady: Do you have anything light?
Elaine Dickinson: How about this leaflet, "Famous Jewish Sports Legends?"
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51495 is a reply to message #51487] Mon, 01 February 2010 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jermleeds
Messages: 270
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 1, 1:09 pm, Andrew <soccert...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My question is, why didn't you just ask if people wanted to play on
> your motion offense themed team? why even bring up the other teams in
> the first post? a

For all of Jacob's thoughtful responses, I think Andrew pretty much
wins the thread. Frank, promote the motion offense. Organize clinics,
take a team to Fools. More power to you. But beyond that, pretty much
anything out of your mouth tends to undercut your goals wrt/ the MO,
so just promote the MO, then just STFU. I say this not because I find
you annoying, although I do. I say this because it kills me to see
someone with obvious passion and energy and ideas, trip over his own
dick everytime he posts. Drop the 'New Games' accusations (however
accurate they might be), skip the diatribes about ultimate's rules and
training wheels, avoid mentioning any other team or individuals by
name. If you want people to learn the motion offense, do not give them
a reason to avoid doing so every time you speak. Get out of your own
way.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51501 is a reply to message #51495] Mon, 01 February 2010 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Hey Brian, do you like movies about gladiators?
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51509 is a reply to message #51501] Tue, 02 February 2010 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Feb 1, 8:48 pm, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Brian, do you like movies about gladiators?

Hey guys, you're pissing upwind to try to explain to Frank how to just
get the job done. He is incapable of trying to accomplish his
"alleged" goal just by demonstrating his will to do so. He has a
personality need to (i.e., he must) lash out at someone/something
while espousing a somewhat reasonable goal. Every goal he talks about
is created so that he can spew forth his "truth." He is not to be
despised for this; rather ignored (better word than pitied). All of us
could benefit from some therapy (the Landmark Forum is excellent), but
people like Frank need major therapy and yet always seem to be the
people who think they need it the least.

He took many hundreds of words to get to "most groups are insane." I'm
taking a lot less to make it more personal... Frank you are insane.
Not in the cute or nasty sense; in the psychological sense. When you
can field a team without the need to attack/belittle/whatever someone
else, you will know you are getting better. I'm not holding my
breadth.

Ditto for Toad.
Re: The Time Has Come :: To Rise Above [message #51542 is a reply to message #51509] Tue, 02 February 2010 12:39 Go to previous message
jermleeds
Messages: 270
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Feb 2, 1:49 am, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:.
> He has a
> personality need to (i.e., he must) lash out at someone/something
> while espousing a somewhat reasonable goal. Every goal he talks about
> is created so that he can spew forth his "truth."
<snip>
> Ditto for Toad.

Joe, I think your assessment is pretty accurate. That said, the
optimist in me maintains a shred of hope that the Franks and Toads of
the world could still figure out how to channel their energies
productively. If I can help them get there by providing a few
concrete pointers on how to interact with other human beings, the
chance there might be some improvement is worth the five minutes it
takes to post.

A lottery ticket is only a dollar, am I right?
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