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Home » RSD » RSD Posts » Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc (VI.B.4)
Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80638] Mon, 01 November 2010 06:21 Go to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
One of the most frequently mis-played rules situations that I am aware of is when a thrower can call a time-out. Plenty of people know it, but even more people do not know it or mis-play it nonetheless:

As a thrower, if you are going to call a time-out after a stoppage of play, you should ALWAYS call the time-out before checking the disc in.

You are allowed to call a time-out on a dead disc. You do not need to check it in. There are a lot of reasons to do it this way, even though it is also perfectly legal to call a time-out on a live or in-play disc (of course). Here are three reasons:

1) Save time on the stall count. As soon as you check the disc in, the marker will blurt out "stallingX," which costs you a second on the stall count. Call the time-out before the check to save a second on the stall count.

2) Avoid a possible turnover. A dead disc is not subject to turnover. If the disc is dead and you call a time-out when you don't have any, it is not a turnover. If you check the disc in first and then call the time-out, it will be a turnover.

3) Save the time it takes to get everyone positioned and ready and then checking the disc into play. If you know you're going to call a time-out anyway, just agree on the count with the marker and call it. There is no reason to make everyone get set up and check the disc in, just so you can immediately call a time-out.

That's all. Tell your friends. Applicable rules are below.

-Colin McIntyre

http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_ edition_rules.aspx

VI.B.4 After the pull, only a thrower with possession of the disc that has survived ground contact can call a time-out. The player must form a T with one hand and the disc, and should audibly say time-out. The time-out begins when the T is formed. The disc is then placed on the ground at the pivot spot. [note: no requirement that the disc is live or in-play].

VI.B.6 If the disc is live or in play and the thrower attempts to call a time-out when the team in possession has no time-outs remaining, it is a turnover and play stops.

II.R.3 A disc is dead when play has stopped and can continue only with a check. The disc is not subject to a turnover.
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80642 is a reply to message #80638] Mon, 01 November 2010 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgd.mitch
Messages: 1207
Registered: January 2009
Senior Member
an additional note for time outs as this came up at nationals....

you do not have to be on the field or have a pivot to call a timeout. a player caught an arching huck right at the sideline in bounds, but momentum carried him way out and the defender astutely started legally stalling him. defender runs back to the line and calls time out immediately....disc coming in at stalling 7. as soon as the defender survived ground contact with possession, he is allowed to call timeout, and could have had stalling ~3.

the player wasn't sure when he could call timeout without a pivot foot established. he actually asked me on the way to the line if he had a timeout remaining.

Mitch
(observer in the game)
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80676 is a reply to message #80642] Mon, 01 November 2010 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim
Messages: 21
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
Couldn't he have had the time out at no stall by calling it
immediately?

>  as soon as the defender survived
> ground contact with possession, he is allowed to call
> timeout, and could have had stalling ~3.
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80684 is a reply to message #80676] Mon, 01 November 2010 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgd.mitch
Messages: 1207
Registered: January 2009
Senior Member
Tim wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 13:09
Couldn't he have had the time out at no stall by calling it
immediately?

>  as soon as the defender survived
> ground contact with possession, he is allowed to call
> timeout, and could have had stalling ~3.
No, because as soon as the player caught the disc, the defender could start stalling while the player could not call timeout until he had survived ground contact. In this particular case, surviving ground contact included a few strides and a bit of a jump and tumble to the ground which ended about 15 feet out of bounds. There might have been one of those USAU bill board folding signs in the way as well.
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80685 is a reply to message #80684] Mon, 01 November 2010 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Dyer
Messages: 66
Registered: January 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Member
mgd.mitch wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 10:44
the defender could start stalling while the player could not call timeout until he had survived ground contact. In this particular case, surviving ground contact included a few strides and a bit of a jump and tumble to the ground which ended about 15 feet out of bounds. There might have been one of those USAU bill board folding signs in the way as well.


I don't know much about how rules are formed, but if the defender can initiate a stall before the disc is ruled as a catch (surviving ground contact and all that), then the rule needs to be changed.
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80689 is a reply to message #80685] Mon, 01 November 2010 11:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgd.mitch
Messages: 1207
Registered: January 2009
Senior Member
Garrett Dyer wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 13:52

I don't know much about how rules are formed, but if the defender can initiate a stall before the disc is ruled as a catch (surviving ground contact and all that), then the rule needs to be changed.
It's a tough rule to word, because if you make possession include ground contact, a greatest isn't a legal throw anymore since you never establish possession. It's a legal catch once you stop the rotation of the disc and control it, but ground contact can retroactively negate possession up to that point if you drop it. Allowing a defender to stall helps encourage the receiver to get up and/or get back to the line and continue play instead of delaying and getting the offense set up.
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80690 is a reply to message #80689] Mon, 01 November 2010 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Dyer
Messages: 66
Registered: January 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Member
[quote title=mgd.mitch wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 11:33]Garrett Dyer wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 13:52
Allowing a defender to stall helps encourage the receiver to get up and/or get back to the line and continue play instead of delaying and getting the offense set up.


Seems like that's what the delay of game pre-stall should be used for...
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80699 is a reply to message #80689] Mon, 01 November 2010 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Practically speaking, the stall count issue makes little difference. You've caught the disc once you've stopped rotation and established control. The stall count can start. If you drop it afterwards, why does it matter if the turnover occurred at stall 1 or stall 3?

The "after surviving ground contact" part of the time out rule just prevents you from trying to avoid a ground-contact-related drop by calling a time-out. For example, if I make a giant layout catch, but might not be able to hang onto the disc through the landing, I shouldn't be able to call a time-out while airborne, and then drop the disc when I land without it being a turnover. Under the current rules, that dropped disc would still be a turnover.

-Colin
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80711 is a reply to message #80638] Mon, 01 November 2010 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dustin McConnell
Messages: 30
Registered: February 2009
Member
Question:

Say the other team hucks into the endzone and it's incomplete. If I go and pick up the disc in the middle of the endzone do I have to walk it up to the line/cone to call timeout? Or can I call timeout immediately and then walk the disc up when the O/D are getting set. My interpretation of this is it should be walked up first...
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80868 is a reply to message #80711] Wed, 03 November 2010 05:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> Say the other team hucks into the endzone and it's
> incomplete. If I go and pick up the disc in the middle of
> the endzone do I have to walk it up to the line/cone to call
> timeout? Or can I call timeout immediately and then walk the
> disc up when the O/D are getting set. My interpretation of
> this is it should be walked up first...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---the subject of the thread is something like...calling a time out
during a 'dead disc'......
i'm not rules expert.....but i believe that the disc in the endzone
after a turnover isn't a 'dead disc'(that is, there's no stoppage due
to a foul or violation or whatever)

in this case, i would venture to guess that.....as long as the disc is
picked up and the thrower begins to walk to the goal line, that he can
call a time out before the count is initiated as suggested in the
beginning of the thread.
if the thrower picks up the disc and calls a time out standing at the
spot of the disc on the ground, that would be 'setting a pivot' at
that spot, and that's where the disc would have to be take....back in
the endzone.

ya better, at least, start walking the disc to the line to call the
TO.......because once you start walking, you are committed to taking
the disc at the line....no going back....

anyone?
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80960 is a reply to message #80868] Wed, 03 November 2010 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dustin McConnell
Messages: 30
Registered: February 2009
Member
It would require a check to resume play at that point... So wouldn't it be classified as "dead" for that reason alone? I didn't think a foul or violation was necessary for a dead disc.

agerics20 wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 08:24
> Say the other team hucks into the endzone and it's
> incomplete. If I go and pick up the disc in the middle of
> the endzone do I have to walk it up to the line/cone to call
> timeout? Or can I call timeout immediately and then walk the
> disc up when the O/D are getting set. My interpretation of
> this is it should be walked up first...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---the subject of the thread is something like...calling a time out
during a 'dead disc'......
i'm not rules expert.....but i believe that the disc in the endzone
after a turnover isn't a 'dead disc'(that is, there's no stoppage due
to a foul or violation or whatever)

in this case, i would venture to guess that.....as long as the disc is
picked up and the thrower begins to walk to the goal line, that he can
call a time out before the count is initiated as suggested in the
beginning of the thread.
if the thrower picks up the disc and calls a time out standing at the
spot of the disc on the ground, that would be 'setting a pivot' at
that spot, and that's where the disc would have to be take....back in
the endzone.

ya better, at least, start walking the disc to the line to call the
TO.......because once you start walking, you are committed to taking
the disc at the line....no going back....

anyone?

Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80961 is a reply to message #80638] Wed, 03 November 2010 17:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
korians1
Messages: 219
Registered: February 2010
Location: 402
Senior Member
colinmcintyre wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 08:21
VI.B.4 After the pull, only a thrower with possession of the disc that has survived ground contact can call a time-out. The player must form a T with one hand and the disc, and should audibly say time-out. The time-out begins when the T is formed. The disc is then placed on the ground at the pivot spot. [note: no requirement that the disc is live or in-play].


If the disc is to placed at the pivot spot, a pivot spot would have to exist...right? So could you call a timeout while out of bounds? You wouldn't have a pivot. Would you have to bring the disc on-field before calling a timeout? or could you place in there after calling one from OB?


Also confused about:

VI.A. A time-out stops play and suspends time limit counts.

If the disc is not live, can play be stopped? I mean, what would you be stopping if there's no active play? ideas?

-lk


----------------------------------------------
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9gFT1mEfZ8
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80966 is a reply to message #80961] Wed, 03 November 2010 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeremy.mcnamara
Messages: 519
Registered: November 2008
Location: Albany
Senior Member
korians1 wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 20:28


Also confused about:

VI.A. A time-out stops play and suspends time limit counts.

If the disc is not live, can play be stopped? I mean, what would you be stopping if there's no active play? ideas?

-lk


Delay of game counts maybe?

j mac
Re: Rule of the Day: When a thrower can call a time-out - dead disc [message #80971 is a reply to message #80711] Wed, 03 November 2010 19:58 Go to previous message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Dustin, I'll double-check with the other members of the SRC and answer your question definitively very soon. To avoid confusion.

side notes:

1) State of the disc. A disc lying on the ground in the end zone is "in-play". If you pick it up and walk it to the line, it is "live" until you get to the line and put it into play. No check is required. Just the ground touch. Not a dead disc.

2) Korians, you do not need to have a pivot to call a time-out. Probably useful to distinguish between the pivot itself and the "pivot spot" - the spot on the playing surface where your pivot is placed or must be placed.

-Colin
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