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NCUA is a Scam [message #6814] Tue, 18 November 2008 11:57 Go to next message
carter_disk
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
NCUA is a scam. Their goal is to make money off of College Ultimate.
Like all scam artists they found a revenue stream and tried to insert
themselves into the middle of it. Their coup has failed.
Unfortunately, like true scam artists, they have no shame and will
continue to stick around trying to bilk college kids. Here is what we
paid last year and what we would have paid this year under a NCUA
college season.

1. Fees for our team last year:
Indoor tourney ($100), 4 outdoor tourneys (4 x $200 = $800),
Sectionals ($150), Regionals ($250)
UPA Dues ((25 players x $35 = $875)
Total = $2175 ($1300 Tournament organizers + $875 to UPA)

2. Fees for NCUA:
Indoor tourney ($100), 3 NCUA Tourneys (3 x 18 players x$25 = $1350),
Nationals (20 x 25 = $500)
NCUA Dues 125 x $25 = $3125
Total to NCUA: $4975

Yes, that is $5,000 dollars per season to the NCUA. With 300 college
teams that’s $1,500,000 to the NCUA. The stakes are high. If NCUA did
take control they could easily increase tourney costs and you couldn’t
do anything about it.

The only thing the NCUA brings to the table is big college tournaments
(cool, I admit). The UPA has been discussing and implementing all the
other ideas (Second Division, extended College season, more power for
observes etc.) long before the NCUA came onto the scene. I know cause
I was there. The NCUA has lost its corporate takeover and the UPA
should not be a bunch of bleeding heart liberals, they should kick the
scammers out the door and slam it shut.

Of course the frustrated 35 year old toadies and monkeys on RSD who
haven’t played in college or club nationals in the last ten years will
attack this and tell you that the NCUA has great visions for college
ultimate, WRONG! These guys want money from college kids – end of
story.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6820 is a reply to message #6814] Tue, 18 November 2008 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 18, 2:57 pm, carter_d...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The UPA has been discussing and implementing all the
> other ideas (Second Division, extended College season, more power for
> observes etc.)


talk is cheap.....and its all they seem to do




 long before the NCUA came onto the scene. I know cause
> I was there. The NCUA has lost its corporate takeover and the UPA
> should not be a bunch of bleeding heart liberals, they should kick the
> scammers out the door and slam it shut.


but they are scammers themselves.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
>
> Of course the frustrated 35 year old toadies and monkeys on RSD who
> haven’t played in college or club nationals in the last ten years will
> attack this and tell you that the NCUA has great visions for college
> ultimate, WRONG! These guys want money from college kids – end of
> story.

dude, are you aware that you live in a capitalistic society/country?
everything that you do in life someone is makin a buck off you fool.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6822 is a reply to message #6814] Tue, 18 November 2008 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vancer
Messages: 184
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
My accountant wife hates your balance sheet more you hate the NCUA.

Using your number and player estimates:

Indoor = 100
Tournament 1 = $25 * 18 = 450
Tournament 2 = $25 * 18 = 450
Tournament 3 = $25 * 18 = 450
NCUA Nationals = $25 * 20 = 500
NCUA dues = $25 * 25 = 625

Total season = $2575 for 5 tournaments (Indoor, NCUA, NCUA, NCUA,
Nationals)

Previously season = $2175 for 7 tournament (Indoor, Outdoor, Outdoor,
Outdoor, Outdoor, Sectionals, Regionals)



"For the 2009 season, annual NCUA dues are $25 per individual. The
cost to attend any NCUA-sanctioned event is $25 per individual,
meaning that the cost of an entire season (three Regular Season
events, the National Championship tournament, and dues) is only $125
per player."


Ryan Vance
Coach of Women's team that is choosing not to join the NCUA.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6824 is a reply to message #6820] Tue, 18 November 2008 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T
Messages: 110
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
So we have two retorts so far in this thread -

One uses the ability to check simple math to effectively refute an
argument, and the other one, well... doesn't.

T
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6826 is a reply to message #6822] Tue, 18 November 2008 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
carter_disk
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 18, 3:22 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My accountant wife hates your balance sheet more you hate the NCUA.
>
> Using your number and player estimates:
>
> Indoor = 100
> Tournament 1 = $25 * 18 = 450
> Tournament 2 = $25 * 18 = 450
> Tournament 3 = $25 * 18 = 450
> NCUA Nationals = $25 * 20 = 500
> NCUA dues = $25 * 25 = 625
>
> Total season = $2575 for 5 tournaments (Indoor, NCUA, NCUA, NCUA,
> Nationals)
>
> Previously season = $2175 for 7 tournament (Indoor, Outdoor, Outdoor,
> Outdoor, Outdoor, Sectionals, Regionals)
>
> "For the 2009 season, annual NCUA dues are $25 per individual. The
> cost to attend any NCUA-sanctioned event is $25 per individual,
> meaning that the cost of an entire season (three Regular Season
> events, the National Championship tournament, and dues) is only $125
> per player."
>
> Ryan Vance
> Coach of Women's team that is choosing not to join the NCUA.

It is my understanding:

NCUA dues = $100 per member + 25 cultimate stuff= 125 x 25 players =
$3125
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6831 is a reply to message #6826] Tue, 18 November 2008 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryan Thompson
Messages: 364
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 18, 12:39 pm, carter_d...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Nov 18, 3:22 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > My accountant wife hates your balance sheet more you hate the NCUA.
>
> > Using your number and player estimates:
>
> > Indoor = 100
> > Tournament 1 = $25 * 18 = 450
> > Tournament 2 = $25 * 18 = 450
> > Tournament 3 = $25 * 18 = 450
> > NCUA Nationals = $25 * 20 = 500
> > NCUA dues = $25 * 25 = 625
>
> > Total season = $2575 for 5 tournaments (Indoor, NCUA, NCUA, NCUA,
> > Nationals)
>
> > Previously season = $2175 for 7 tournament (Indoor, Outdoor, Outdoor,
> > Outdoor, Outdoor, Sectionals, Regionals)
>
> > "For the 2009 season, annual NCUA dues are $25 per individual. The
> > cost to attend any NCUA-sanctioned event is $25 per individual,
> > meaning that the cost of an entire season (three Regular Season
> > events, the National Championship tournament, and dues) is only $125
> > per player."
>
> > Ryan Vance
> > Coach of Women's team that is choosing not to join the NCUA.
>
> It is my understanding:
>
> NCUA dues = $100 per member  + 25 cultimate stuff= 125 x 25 players =
> $3125

Dues are $25/player, each tournament is $25/player also. But it's a
moot point, since it's not happening in 2009.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6832 is a reply to message #6826] Tue, 18 November 2008 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vancer
Messages: 184
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
You could look at it that way as long as you:

1. Do not count the tournament fees a second time in your
calculations
2. Changed "cultimate stuff" into "NCUA Nationals"
3. Had 100% attendance from your college team at every tournament.

This statement is directly from the NCUA website (when it was up)

"For the 2009 season, annual NCUA dues are $25 per individual. The
cost to attend any NCUA-sanctioned event is $25 per individual,
meaning that the cost of an entire season (three Regular Season
events, the National Championship tournament, and dues) is only $125
per player."

I have many problems with both the NCUA and C1 despite nothing but
positive interactions with both Skip and Cyle in ultimate business
related activities. Skip, in particular, was very helpful and
gracious in several conversations and a great lunch meeting. However,
cooking the books against them (intentionally or no) is certainly not
the way to make an argument. If you are going to make a statement
calling them con artists and scammers, you should double and triple
check to make sure that your research and figures are correct. Wait,
this is RSD. Never mind.


Ryan Vance
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6840 is a reply to message #6832] Tue, 18 November 2008 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
carter_disk
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 18, 3:53 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You could look at it that way as long as you:
>
> 1.  Do not count the tournament fees a second time in your
> calculations
> 2.  Changed "cultimate stuff" into "NCUA Nationals"
> 3.  Had 100% attendance from your college team at every tournament.
>
> This statement is directly from the NCUA website (when it was up)
>
> "For the 2009 season, annual NCUA dues are $25 per individual. The
> cost to attend any NCUA-sanctioned event is $25 per individual,
> meaning that the cost of an entire season (three Regular Season
> events, the National Championship tournament, and dues) is only $125
> per player."
>
> I have many problems with both the NCUA and C1 despite nothing but
> positive interactions with both Skip and Cyle in ultimate business
> related activities.  Skip, in particular, was very helpful and
> gracious in several conversations and a great lunch meeting.  However,
> cooking the books against them (intentionally or no) is certainly not
> the way to make an argument.  If you are going to make a statement
> calling them con artists and scammers, you should double and triple
> check to make sure that your research and figures are correct.  Wait,
> this is RSD.   Never mind.
>
> Ryan Vance


Ryan,

You can't be seriously standing up for these guys. That puts you in
with Toad and Frank...

Anatomy of a Scam
1) History of pulling scams before (Florida incident)
2) Find a revenue stream
3) Find dupes (college kids) and tell them this is the greatest thing
ever
4) Get a bunch of people to say what a great idea this is (The huddle,
Florda Ultimate, toadies on RSD)
5) Give the Dupes very little info
6) Take the Dupes money as long as they are willing to give it
etc etc

The NCUA had no way of working (which is why it failed)
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6841 is a reply to message #6832] Tue, 18 November 2008 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
count5525
Messages: 10
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
The ultimate world would be a lot better off with more people that had
the vision and determination as the C1 guys. As it is, I (and
everyone else over the age of 9) am going to finish my college career
playing in a retarded system that lacks little in the way of logic or
fairness.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6842 is a reply to message #6840] Tue, 18 November 2008 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DMBranick
Messages: 98
Registered: October 2008
Member
For the record, I don't think Ryan is "standing up for these guys".
He is merely correcting your math, and any public misconceptions it
may cause or have caused. There is already a big cloud of mystery
over details of the NCUA, and we don't need even more of a mystery
created by eroneous information posted here. It's okay to call
someone a scammer or con artist, you just have to use correct
information to back it up.

But I suppse this is all null and void since the NCUA has suspended
operations.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6843 is a reply to message #6840] Tue, 18 November 2008 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
La Maldad
Messages: 40
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Nov 18, 3:34 pm, carter_d...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Nov 18, 3:53 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You could look at it that way as long as you:
>
> > 1.  Do not count the tournament fees a second time in your
> > calculations
> > 2.  Changed "cultimate stuff" into "NCUA Nationals"
> > 3.  Had 100% attendance from your college team at every tournament.
>
> > This statement is directly from the NCUA website (when it was up)
>
> > "For the 2009 season, annual NCUA dues are $25 per individual. The
> > cost to attend any NCUA-sanctioned event is $25 per individual,
> > meaning that the cost of an entire season (three Regular Season
> > events, the National Championship tournament, and dues) is only $125
> > per player."
>
> > I have many problems with both the NCUA and C1 despite nothing but
> > positive interactions with both Skip and Cyle in ultimate business
> > related activities.  Skip, in particular, was very helpful and
> > gracious in several conversations and a great lunch meeting.  However,
> > cooking the books against them (intentionally or no) is certainly not
> > the way to make an argument.  If you are going to make a statement
> > calling them con artists and scammers, you should double and triple
> > check to make sure that your research and figures are correct.  Wait,
> > this is RSD.   Never mind.
>
> > Ryan Vance
>
> Ryan,
>
> You can't be seriously standing up for these guys. That puts you in
> with Toad and Frank...
>
> Anatomy of a Scam
> 1) History of pulling scams before (Florida incident)
> 2) Find a revenue stream
> 3) Find dupes (college kids) and tell them this is the greatest thing
> ever
> 4) Get a bunch of people to say what a great idea this is (The huddle,
> Florda Ultimate, toadies on RSD)
> 5) Give the Dupes very little info
> 6) Take the Dupes money as long as they are willing to give it
> etc etc
>
> The NCUA had no way of working (which is why it failed)

You're behaving like an idiot right now.

Hh
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6844 is a reply to message #6840] Tue, 18 November 2008 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vancer
Messages: 184
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Have you met them? Genuinely curious here. I have met and had an 1.5
hour or so business lunch with Skip, despite being considerably small
time. We had good discussions on ultimate's direction, disagreed on
some things, made a small business deal, and moved on. He had well-
thought out ideas, and I believe from that meeting that he went into
this with good intentions, though I find them misguided.

I also had email discussions with Cyle when we were attempting to
secure Florida artwork for Force Middle. While we eventually couldn't
come to an arrangement because they just didn't have artwork that we
could use, all the discussions were professional and transparent.


As to the rest...

"Anatomy of a Scam"
1) History of pulling scams before (Florida incident)

- Less a scam than gross money mismanagement, then panic and poor
ethical choices to try to fix the problem. If he had intentionally
embezzled the money and put it into his pocket, I would call it a
scam. However, based on his story and the surrounding information, I
don't believe this was the case at all. Frankly, the money
mismanagement scares me more than the following choices, especially
with the ultimate oversight of Skip (for C1) and the board (for
NCUA).

2) Find a revenue stream

- I have no problem with them attempting to make money from ultimate.
I tried to do the same thing myself.

3) Find dupes (college kids) and tell them this is the greatest thing
ever

- And you are not attempting to find dupes with your accusations?
Posting blatantly wrong information is much more duplicitous than
creating something to try to further ultimate. I think that their
attempts to further ultimate are misguided and will be ultimate
unsuccessful, but I certainly don't begrudge them the attempt.

4) Get a bunch of people to say what a great idea this is (The
huddle,
Florda Ultimate, toadies on RSD)

- There are an equal number saying it isn't a great idea. Just
because someone agrees with their grand scheme for ultimate doesn't
make them a toady.

5) Give the Dupes very little info

"I have many problems with both the NCUA and C1 despite nothing but
positive interactions with both Skip and Cyle in ultimate business
related activities." Vance 08.
This is one of the primary problems I've had during the process, and I
certainly concede this point, though not the connotations of it. I
wish they had been more up front with everything, but I don't believe
they did it in an attempt to trick anyone.

6) Take the Dupes money as long as they are willing to give it
etc etc

But not as much money as you are claiming while calling them con
artists, correct? They are charging what they belive to be a fair
price for their services. There is no monopoly here, and teams made
their feelings known. Those who felt that was a fair price would
join, those who didn't, wouldn't.


Ryan Vance
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6845 is a reply to message #6841] Tue, 18 November 2008 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Douglas T Lilley
Messages: 674
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 18, 4:39 pm, count5...@gmail.com wrote:
> The ultimate world would be a lot better off with more people that had
> the vision and determination as the C1 guys.  As it is, I (and
> everyone else over the age of 9) am going to finish my college career
> playing in a retarded system that lacks little in the way of logic or
> fairness.

I have no stake in this whatsoever (graduated 25 years ago) but I sure
didn't see the UPA system as unfair then and I don't now (it's
probably more fair now because college teams aren't going to run into
the top clubs in the regional semis and finals). You play a bunch of
tournaments, then you go to sectionals. If you had a decent record
against decent competition, you get a good seeding. If not, you've
got to beat some good teams early on to get anywhere. If you do well,
you go to regionals. If you do well there, you go to nationals. If
you do well there, you are national champions or close to it. What is
unfair about that?
For the record:
I am not at all anti some of the ideas of C1, I just don't see how the
current UPA system is unfair.
IMHO, the idea of letting the top teams skip sectionals is silly. If
they're so good, let them get out there, play their subs and trounce
everyone who crosses their path. If you're worried about injuries in
"meaningless" games, don't lace 'em up. It says more about you than
it does the UPA system.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6847 is a reply to message #6845] Tue, 18 November 2008 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ilikedisc
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
 "What is unfair about that?"

How about the fact that some regions are guaranteed to always have at
least two bids, just because they have a ton more of crappy teams?

How about the fact that last years results have a direct impact on
this year's teams? At least in C1 there were 8 wildcard spots + the
NCUA spot which had nothing to do with size or last year, they were
all about this year's record and proving who was best no matter where
your school was located.

Remember, this year's club national champion was the 3rd qualifying
team from the NW (even then only by 1 point i think), and I think
Sockeye only won regionals once in their 3 title years.

The point is, the UPA system is inherently unfair and outdated, and
what Cultimate tried to do, among other less quality things, is give
the top teams a more fair shot at proving that they should be at
nationals.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6848 is a reply to message #6843] Tue, 18 November 2008 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
swillaholic
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Nov 18, 4:47 pm, La Maldad <hhvaldi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 3:34 pm, carter_d...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 18, 3:53 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You could look at it that way as long as you:
>
> > > 1.  Do not count the tournament fees a second time in your
> > > calculations
> > > 2.  Changed "cultimate stuff" into "NCUA Nationals"
> > > 3.  Had 100% attendance from your college team at every tournament.
>
> > > This statement is directly from the NCUA website (when it was up)
>
> > > "For the 2009 season, annual NCUA dues are $25 per individual. The
> > > cost to attend any NCUA-sanctioned event is $25 per individual,
> > > meaning that the cost of an entire season (three Regular Season
> > > events, the National Championship tournament, and dues) is only $125
> > > per player."
>
> > > I have many problems with both the NCUA and C1 despite nothing but
> > > positive interactions with both Skip and Cyle in ultimate business
> > > related activities.  Skip, in particular, was very helpful and
> > > gracious in several conversations and a great lunch meeting.  However,
> > > cooking the books against them (intentionally or no) is certainly not
> > > the way to make an argument.  If you are going to make a statement
> > > calling them con artists and scammers, you should double and triple
> > > check to make sure that your research and figures are correct.  Wait,
> > > this is RSD.   Never mind.
>
> > > Ryan Vance
>
> > Ryan,
>
> > You can't be seriously standing up for these guys. That puts you in
> > with Toad and Frank...
>
> > Anatomy of a Scam
> > 1) History of pulling scams before (Florida incident)
> > 2) Find a revenue stream
> > 3) Find dupes (college kids) and tell them this is the greatest thing
> > ever
> > 4) Get a bunch of people to say what a great idea this is (The huddle,
> > Florda Ultimate, toadies on RSD)
> > 5) Give the Dupes very little info
> > 6) Take the Dupes money as long as they are willing to give it
> > etc etc
>
> > The NCUA had no way of working (which is why it failed)
>
> You're behaving like an idiot right now.
>
> Hh- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You're the idiot Maldad.
You're also, one of them.

Ryan Thompson, don't correct the right side, or else you're wrong.
You know who else is wrong?
Them.
Ryan Thompson, you're one of them.

Vancer, correcting once has shown your allegiance to 'them'.
But twice?? Your allegiance is strong.
You are so very much, one of them.

Carter, I think it's clear we need to stick together.
I'm not one of them.
Come on over. We're gonna have a 5ultimate bonfire and chant the
11th.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6849 is a reply to message #6844] Tue, 18 November 2008 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
carter_disk
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 18, 4:50 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you met them?  Genuinely curious here.  I have met and had an 1.5
> hour or so business lunch with Skip, despite being considerably small
> time.  We had good discussions on ultimate's direction, disagreed on
> some things, made a small business deal, and moved on.  He had well-
> thought out ideas, and I believe from that meeting that he went into
> this with good intentions, though I find them misguided.
>
> I also had email discussions with Cyle when we were attempting to
> secure Florida artwork for Force Middle.  While we eventually couldn't
> come to an arrangement because they just didn't have artwork that we
> could use, all the discussions were professional and transparent.
>
> As to the rest...
>
> "Anatomy of a Scam"
> 1) History of pulling scams before (Florida incident)
>
> - Less a scam than gross money mismanagement, then panic and poor
> ethical choices to try to fix the problem.  If he had intentionally
> embezzled the money and put it into his pocket, I would call it a
> scam.  However, based on his story and the surrounding information, I
> don't believe this was the case at all.  Frankly, the money
> mismanagement scares me more than the following choices, especially
> with the ultimate oversight of Skip (for C1) and the board (for
> NCUA).
>
> 2) Find a revenue stream
>
> - I have no problem with them attempting to make money from ultimate.
> I tried to do the same thing myself.
>
> 3) Find dupes (college kids) and tell them this is the greatest thing
> ever
>
> - And you are not attempting to find dupes with your accusations?
> Posting blatantly wrong information is much more duplicitous than
> creating something to try to further ultimate.  I think that their
> attempts to further ultimate are misguided and will be ultimate
> unsuccessful, but I certainly don't begrudge them the attempt.
>
> 4) Get a bunch of people to say what a great idea this is (The
> huddle,
> Florda Ultimate, toadies on RSD)
>
> - There are an equal number saying it isn't a great idea.  Just
> because someone agrees with their grand scheme for ultimate doesn't
> make them a toady.
>
> 5) Give the Dupes very little info
>
> "I have many problems with both the NCUA and C1 despite nothing but
> positive interactions with both Skip and Cyle in ultimate business
> related activities."  Vance 08.
> This is one of the primary problems I've had during the process, and I
> certainly concede this point, though not the connotations of it.  I
> wish they had been more up front with everything, but I don't believe
> they did it in an attempt to trick anyone.
>
> 6) Take the Dupes money as long as they are willing to give it
> etc etc
>
> But not as much money as you are claiming while calling them con
> artists, correct?  They are charging what they belive to be a fair
> price for their services.  There is no monopoly here, and teams made
> their feelings known.  Those who felt that was a fair price would
> join, those who didn't, wouldn't.
>
> Ryan Vance

Sorry, I didn't realize you were friends. I have never met them.
Still, their ideas of change are nothing new and it is clear most
colleges did not support them in their attempted coup.

If they had approached the whole thing in an intelligent, business-
like manner, I might feel differently.

They ran the hype like a pyramid scheme with no info, sign up now or
you'll miss out attitude, ever changing plans, and very little means
for making it happen. Perhaps they are just dreamers and not very
competent, but when you take people’s money and don’t give them a
product it’s often called a scam.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6850 is a reply to message #6844] Tue, 18 November 2008 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 18, 4:50 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  There is no monopoly here


besides the one the upa has going
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6854 is a reply to message #6845] Tue, 18 November 2008 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Finch
Messages: 46
Registered: November 2008
Member
On Nov 18, 4:58 pm, Douglas T Lilley <q3j...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 4:39 pm, count5...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > The ultimate world would be a lot better off with more people that had
> > the vision and determination as the C1 guys.  As it is, I (and
> > everyone else over the age of 9) am going to finish my college career
> > playing in a retarded system that lacks little in the way of logic or
> > fairness.
>
> I have no stake in this whatsoever (graduated 25 years ago) but I sure
> didn't see the UPA system as unfair then and I don't now (it's
> probably more fair now because college teams aren't going to run into
> the top clubs in the regional semis and finals).  You play a bunch of
> tournaments, then you go to sectionals.  If you had a decent record
> against decent competition, you get a good seeding.  If not, you've
> got to beat some good teams early on to get anywhere.  If you do well,
> you go to regionals.  If you do well there, you go to nationals.  If
> you do well there, you are national champions or close to it.  What is
> unfair about that?
> For the record:
> I am not at all anti some of the ideas of C1, I just don't see how the
> current UPA system is unfair.
> IMHO, the idea of letting the top teams skip sectionals is silly.  If
> they're so good, let them get out there, play their subs and trounce
> everyone who crosses their path.  If you're worried about injuries in
> "meaningless" games, don't lace 'em up.  It says more about you than
> it does the UPA system.



The current system is unfair particularly for small programs. In areas
where there are numerous teams, smaller schools have little to no
chance of making regionals so they are essentially joining the UPA for
one tournament. Other flaws exists as well, such as the lack of a
meaningful regular season. The UPA has even acknowledged these flaws
with the announcement regarding their strategic plans.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6859 is a reply to message #6849] Tue, 18 November 2008 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
swillaholic
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Nov 18, 5:22 pm, carter_d...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Nov 18, 4:50 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Have you met them?  Genuinely curious here.  I have met and had an 1.5
> > hour or so business lunch with Skip, despite being considerably small
> > time.  We had good discussions on ultimate's direction, disagreed on
> > some things, made a small business deal, and moved on.  He had well-
> > thought out ideas, and I believe from that meeting that he went into
> > this with good intentions, though I find them misguided.
>
> > I also had email discussions with Cyle when we were attempting to
> > secure Florida artwork for Force Middle.  While we eventually couldn't
> > come to an arrangement because they just didn't have artwork that we
> > could use, all the discussions were professional and transparent.
>
> > As to the rest...
>
> > "Anatomy of a Scam"
> > 1) History of pulling scams before (Florida incident)
>
> > - Less a scam than gross money mismanagement, then panic and poor
> > ethical choices to try to fix the problem.  If he had intentionally
> > embezzled the money and put it into his pocket, I would call it a
> > scam.  However, based on his story and the surrounding information, I
> > don't believe this was the case at all.  Frankly, the money
> > mismanagement scares me more than the following choices, especially
> > with the ultimate oversight of Skip (for C1) and the board (for
> > NCUA).
>
> > 2) Find a revenue stream
>
> > - I have no problem with them attempting to make money from ultimate.
> > I tried to do the same thing myself.
>
> > 3) Find dupes (college kids) and tell them this is the greatest thing
> > ever
>
> > - And you are not attempting to find dupes with your accusations?
> > Posting blatantly wrong information is much more duplicitous than
> > creating something to try to further ultimate.  I think that their
> > attempts to further ultimate are misguided and will be ultimate
> > unsuccessful, but I certainly don't begrudge them the attempt.
>
> > 4) Get a bunch of people to say what a great idea this is (The
> > huddle,
> > Florda Ultimate, toadies on RSD)
>
> > - There are an equal number saying it isn't a great idea.  Just
> > because someone agrees with their grand scheme for ultimate doesn't
> > make them a toady.
>
> > 5) Give the Dupes very little info
>
> > "I have many problems with both the NCUA and C1 despite nothing but
> > positive interactions with both Skip and Cyle in ultimate business
> > related activities."  Vance 08.
> > This is one of the primary problems I've had during the process, and I
> > certainly concede this point, though not the connotations of it.  I
> > wish they had been more up front with everything, but I don't believe
> > they did it in an attempt to trick anyone.
>
> > 6) Take the Dupes money as long as they are willing to give it
> > etc etc
>
> > But not as much money as you are claiming while calling them con
> > artists, correct?  They are charging what they belive to be a fair
> > price for their services.  There is no monopoly here, and teams made
> > their feelings known.  Those who felt that was a fair price would
> > join, those who didn't, wouldn't.
>
> > Ryan Vance
>
> Sorry, I didn't realize you were friends. I have never met them.
> Still, their ideas of change are nothing new and it is clear most
> colleges did not support them in their attempted coup.
>
> If they had approached the whole thing in an intelligent, business-
> like manner, I might feel differently.
>
> They ran the hype like a pyramid scheme with no info, sign up now or
> you'll miss out attitude, ever changing plans, and very little means
> for making it happen. Perhaps they are just dreamers and not very
> competent, but when you take people’s money and don’t give them a
> product it’s often called a scam.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I hear that Carter.

I also think people need to realize when an organization of
incompetent dreamers take money with promises for a product, that it's
a scam.

That's why I believe in the UPA. When I paid dues, I knew that the
UPA would be providing a well runned and meaningful tournament for my
kids some day.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6872 is a reply to message #6849] Tue, 18 November 2008 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vancer
Messages: 184
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
I didn't say we were friends, I said that I had small business
dealings with both in order to add frameowork to the discussion after
you said

"You can't be seriously standing up for these guys. That puts you in
with Toad and Frank... "

I found that to be a serious enough accusation to fight back! It is
also a statement that shows the "with me or against me" attitude
you've latched onto, since you don't even realize the legion of
differences between Toad and Frank, or the positive aspects that both
bring despite their ....I'll go with interesting....methods.

I'm a big fan of complexity and understanding details before entering
a discussion, especially if entering said discussion with accusations
of impropriety. Since you decided to go the self-aggrandizing route
and start a completely new thread instead of just responding to the
multitude of threads already in existence, it's clear you want to make
waves. That is all well and good, but next time try to research and
find evidence to support your theories except "I said they are
scammers so they are."


Ryan Vance
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6877 is a reply to message #6872] Tue, 18 November 2008 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dsb
Messages: 40
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Nov 18, 3:53 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't say we were friends, I said that I had small business
> dealings with both in order to add frameowork to the discussion after
> you said
>
> "You can't be seriously standing up for these guys. That puts you in
> with Toad and Frank... "
>
> I found that to be a serious enough accusation to fight back!  It is
> also a statement that shows the "with me or against me" attitude
> you've latched onto, since you don't even realize the legion of
> differences between Toad and Frank, or the positive aspects that both
> bring despite their ....I'll go with interesting....methods.
>
> I'm a big fan of complexity and understanding details before entering
> a discussion, especially if entering said discussion with accusations
> of impropriety.  Since you decided to go the self-aggrandizing route
> and start a completely new thread instead of just responding to the
> multitude of threads already in existence, it's clear you want to make
> waves.  That is all well and good, but next time try to research and
> find evidence to support your theories except "I said they are
> scammers so they are."
>
> Ryan Vance

You know what's also a scam? Trying to sell other teams' discs to
poor ultimate players when they could easily steal them for free.

Check my calculations:

10 discs through Force Middle : $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
10 discs stolen from bags : 00000000000000

Yea I double and triple checked that shit.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6878 is a reply to message #6877] Tue, 18 November 2008 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vancer
Messages: 184
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
It seems many other people came to the same conclusion dsb. At least
we got to put some money into a few college ultimate programs.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6881 is a reply to message #6877] Tue, 18 November 2008 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 18, 7:15 pm, dsb <rowan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 3:53 pm, Vancer <ryanpva...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I didn't say we were friends, I said that I had small business
> > dealings with both in order to add frameowork to the discussion after
> > you said
>
> > "You can't be seriously standing up for these guys. That puts you in
> > with Toad and Frank... "
>
> > I found that to be a serious enough accusation to fight back!  It is
> > also a statement that shows the "with me or against me" attitude
> > you've latched onto, since you don't even realize the legion of
> > differences between Toad and Frank, or the positive aspects that both
> > bring despite their ....I'll go with interesting....methods.
>
> > I'm a big fan of complexity and understanding details before entering
> > a discussion, especially if entering said discussion with accusations
> > of impropriety.  Since you decided to go the self-aggrandizing route
> > and start a completely new thread instead of just responding to the
> > multitude of threads already in existence, it's clear you want to make
> > waves.  That is all well and good, but next time try to research and
> > find evidence to support your theories except "I said they are
> > scammers so they are."
>
> > Ryan Vance
>
> You know what's also a scam?  Trying to sell other teams' discs to
> poor ultimate players when they could easily steal them for free.
>
> Check my calculations:
>
> 10 discs through Force Middle : $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> 10 discs stolen from bags : 00000000000000
>
> Yea I double and triple checked that shit.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the thing is.....like with refereed sports, there are consequenses to
stealing. But it seems in the ultimate world, neither playing that
sport or stealing come with ANY risks.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6882 is a reply to message #6854] Tue, 18 November 2008 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff
Messages: 338
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
There are a couple of ideas that really need refined before they are
applied to college Ultimate. Meaningful game and regular season would
be the first two that are clarified and maybe the easiest way to say
that all games after a certain date (October 15 or maybe January 1)
would count towards a teams won loss record for seeding in the
following sectionals, regionals and nationals (or maybe even
qualification for Division 1 or 2 status). By saying that all games
after a particular date count towards said won loss record you have
just created a regular season. This would require accurate reporting
of scores and possibly rosters that are verified and published by the
chosen date. If all games have weight as part of a won loss record,
more meaning may be imparted upon all games. You will still have
teams that say the real season starts with sectionals and treat their
season that way. (But is this what is already happening?)

Maybe then we could have less of the Aw Shucks College of
Administraton and Polytechnology game against the University of Land
Grant be descibed as not being for real because Billy was hungover,
Tom had to go to a formal and three other guys did not make the trip
because they could not afford the flight or the other team was really
the B team before sectionals.



On Nov 18, 5:33�pm, Finch <ShippensburgScapego...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 4:58�pm, Douglas T Lilley <q3j...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 18, 4:39�pm, count5...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > The ultimate world would be a lot better off with more people that had
> > > the vision and determination as the C1 guys. �As it is, I (and
> > > everyone else over the age of 9) am going to finish my college career
> > > playing in a retarded system that lacks little in the way of logic or
> > > fairness.
>
> > I have no stake in this whatsoever (graduated 25 years ago) but I sure
> > didn't see the UPA system as unfair then and I don't now (it's
> > probably more fair now because college teams aren't going to run into
> > the top clubs in the regional semis and finals). �You play a bunch of
> > tournaments, then you go to sectionals. �If you had a decent record
> > against decent competition, you get a good seeding. �If not, you've
> > got to beat some good teams early on to get anywhere. �If you do well,
> > you go to regionals. �If you do well there, you go to nationals.. �If
> > you do well there, you are national champions or close to it. �What is
> > unfair about that?
> > For the record:
> > I am not at all anti some of the ideas of C1, I just don't see how the
> > current UPA system is unfair.
> > IMHO, the idea of letting the top teams skip sectionals is silly. �If
> > they're so good, let them get out there, play their subs and trounce
> > everyone who crosses their path. �If you're worried about injuries in
> > "meaningless" games, don't lace 'em up. �It says more about you than
> > it does the UPA system.
>
> The current system is unfair particularly for small programs. In areas
> where there are numerous teams, smaller schools have little to no
> chance of making regionals so they are essentially joining the UPA for
> one tournament. �Other flaws exists as well, such as the lack of a
> meaningful regular season. �The UPA has even acknowledged these flaws
> with the announcement regarding their strategic plans.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6884 is a reply to message #6872] Tue, 18 November 2008 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
carter_disk
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
>
> "You can't be seriously standing up for these guys. That puts you in
> with Toad and Frank... "
>
> I found that to be a serious enough accusation to fight back!  It is
> also a statement that shows the "with me or against me" attitude
> you've latched onto, since you don't even realize the legion of
> differences between Toad and Frank, or the positive aspects that both
> bring despite their ....I'll go with interesting....methods.
>

The only place where I could have been wrong was with the membership
fee. This was a number I read on RSD. I tried to confirm, it but the
NCUA site was already taken down. I stand by the other statements. As
for:

Toad is a kook: There were tens of thousands of ultimate games played
last year. Less than .01% had refs. I watched or played in over 75
games at all levels of ultimate last year including college
sectionals, regionals and nationals, and club sectionals, regionals
and Nationals. How many of these had refs? None. Toad is more alone
than the anti-evolution-Creationists at a National Science Teachers
Convention. All he does is rant on RSD. He should run some more
tournaments with refs, run a summer league with refs, just do
something and we might respect him...

Frank is also a kook: (though you are right, he is a different kind of
kook than Toad.) geeze, I feel so sorry for him though, I just can't
say anything....
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6924 is a reply to message #6878] Wed, 19 November 2008 05:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dana.S.Dunbar
Messages: 4
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
all I have to say 'vancer' is: PEN15

beat that henoch
-scott

Vancer wrote:
> It seems many other people came to the same conclusion dsb. At least
> we got to put some money into a few college ultimate programs.
Re: NCUA is a Scam [message #6933 is a reply to message #6884] Wed, 19 November 2008 06:45 Go to previous message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 18, 8:44 pm, carter_d...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Toad is a kook: There were tens of thousands of ultimate games played
> last year. Less than .01% had refs.

uhmmm, and i'm the kook here?
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------


I watched or played in over 75
> games at all levels of ultimate last year including college
> sectionals, regionals and nationals, and club sectionals, regionals
> and Nationals. How many of these had refs? None.

are you actually flourishing this fact or just trying to tell us/me
what i/we already know.
------------------------------------------------------------ --




Toad is more alone
> than the anti-evolution-Creationists at a National Science Teachers
> Convention.

but when it comes to the overall world of sports who's alone? i'd say
YOU and ultimate. So yea, i may be alone here (not as alone as jesus
freaks in the science world) but there are PLENTY of people that share
my views that just prefer to keep their mouths shut and accept
ultimate for what it is. Ya see, in life, there are very few with the
balls to take a stand but very many that just follow the
crowd.......these people are called sheep. So go follow the herd,
like the sheep you are.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------




All he does is rant on RSD. He should run some more
> tournaments with refs, run a summer league with refs, just do
> something and we might respect him...

as a critic my job is to critique.......not "do". and why should i
fix your shit when i find it more enjoyable (and less effortfull) than
"doing" anything about it.
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