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C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5942] Tue, 11 November 2008 08:06 Go to next message
see_el_bee
Messages: 4
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
hi rsd

i was wondering if anyone has brought up the question as to why C1 is
targeting the college circuit rather than club. it seems to me that
the idea is better suited for club teams.

- truly elite post-collegiate players are more willing move to an area
with an established elite team than a high schooler is willing to pick
a college based on their ultimate program

- post-collegiate players have more disposable income and are more
likely to be able to afford travel

- there is less variance year to year on who is considered elite in
club than in college

just a few thoughts, but there are other arguments that seem to favor
a C1 format for club rather than college. have the C1 fellars
addressed why they chose college over club?

club ultimate could model its self after the english premier
league... from wikipedia (the most trusted source in the interwebs):

The Premier League was founded in 1992 after England's top clubs broke
away from the Football League in a successful effort aimed at
increasing their income at the expense of clubs in the lower
divisions. Links with The Football League were maintained, and each
season the bottom three clubs are relegated from the Premier League
and replaced by three from the Championship. The Premier League is
contested between 20 clubs each season. The current champions are
Manchester United. Each club in the Premier League in any given season
owns one twentieth of a share in the league itself, meaning that they
are all supposedly equal owners with equal rights and
responsibilities.

club seems like the obvious choice for this style of elite ultimate.

thoughts?

-christopher-


allow me to state that i have not read every single thread about the
controversial C1, so if this has been addressed accept my apologies.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5944 is a reply to message #5942] Tue, 11 November 2008 08:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
celebrated.alias
Messages: 38
Registered: October 2008
Member
not as many club teams. it wouldn't support the trickle-up/subsidizing
that you can have with 100-team tournaments.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5950 is a reply to message #5944] Tue, 11 November 2008 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
see_el_bee
Messages: 4
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 11, 10:13 am, celebrated.al...@gmail.com wrote:
> not as many club teams. it wouldn't support the trickle-up/subsidizing
> that you can have with 100-team tournaments.

would 'non-elite' college teams really feel compelled to support the
'elite' teams in such great numbers to fill a 100 team tournament?
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5953 is a reply to message #5950] Tue, 11 November 2008 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
celebrated.alias
Messages: 38
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Nov 11, 9:55 am, see_el_bee <see_el_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 11, 10:13 am, celebrated.al...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > not as many club teams. it wouldn't support the trickle-up/subsidizing
> > that you can have with 100-team tournaments.
>
> would 'non-elite' college teams really feel compelled to support the
> 'elite' teams in such great numbers to fill a 100 team tournament?

They did last year, when tournaments like the 124-team Trouble in
Vegas sent some of its receipts to Wisconsin and whoever won the
women's NCUS.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5970 is a reply to message #5942] Tue, 11 November 2008 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wormser
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 11, 8:06 am, see_el_bee <see_el_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> hi rsd
>
> i was wondering if anyone has brought up the question as to why C1 is
> targeting the college circuit rather than club.  it seems to me that
> the idea is better suited for club teams.
>
> - truly elite post-collegiate players are more willing move to an area
> with an established elite team than a high schooler is willing to pick
> a college based on their ultimate program
>
> - post-collegiate players have more disposable income and are more
> likely to be able to afford travel
>
> - there is less variance year to year on who is considered elite in
> club than in college
>
> just a few thoughts, but there are other arguments that seem to favor
> a C1 format for club rather than college.  have the C1 fellars
> addressed why they chose college over club?
>
> club ultimate could model its self after the english premier
> league...  from wikipedia (the most trusted source in the interwebs):
>
> The Premier League was founded in 1992 after England's top clubs broke
> away from the Football League in a successful effort aimed at
> increasing their income at the expense of clubs in the lower
> divisions. Links with The Football League were maintained, and each
> season the bottom three clubs are relegated from the Premier League
> and replaced by three from the Championship. The Premier League is
> contested between 20 clubs each season. The current champions are
> Manchester United. Each club in the Premier League in any given season
> owns one twentieth of a share in the league itself, meaning that they
> are all supposedly equal owners with equal rights and
> responsibilities.
>
> club seems like the obvious choice for this style of elite ultimate.
>
> thoughts?
>
> -christopher-
>
> allow me to state that i have not read every single thread about the
> controversial C1, so if this has been addressed accept my apologies.

Skip plays for sockeye during the club season. It seems like it'd be
unlikely for him to quit that to run a bunch of tournaments over the
summer.
-wormser
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5986 is a reply to message #5970] Tue, 11 November 2008 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MD
Messages: 98
Registered: September 2008
Member
> Skip plays for sockeye during the club season.  It seems like it'd be
> unlikely for him to quit that to run a bunch of tournaments over the
> summer.
> -wormser

That is a great point and one that I hadn't considered.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5995 is a reply to message #5953] Tue, 11 November 2008 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tal1286
Messages: 25
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 11, 12:19 pm, celebrated.al...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 11, 9:55 am, see_el_bee <see_el_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 11, 10:13 am, celebrated.al...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > not as many club teams. it wouldn't support the trickle-up/subsidizing
> > > that you can have with 100-team tournaments.
>
> > would 'non-elite' college teams really feel compelled to support the
> > 'elite' teams in such great numbers to fill a 100 team tournament?
>
> They did last year, when tournaments like the 124-team Trouble in
> Vegas sent some of its receipts to Wisconsin and whoever won the
> women's NCUS.

Completely different.

That was prize money for 2 teams who won the most (And also subsidized
it themselves with their tournament fees) Technically, everyone had a
chance for this.

This is a sizable stipend and free jerseys, plus prize money,
probably. At least from my understanding.

There's really no similarity at all.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #5998 is a reply to message #5986] Tue, 11 November 2008 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jywhitt
Messages: 47
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Nov 11, 1:35 pm, MD <themongodogw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Skip plays for sockeye during the club season.  It seems like it'd be
> > unlikely for him to quit that to run a bunch of tournaments over the
> > summer.
> > -wormser
>
> That is a great point and one that I hadn't considered.

That is a very great point, since it shows how C1 or NCUA or whatever
we are calling it now is so dependent on one guy. Nothing against
Skippy; I observed one of his games when he was at Texas and he seemed
like an intelligent guy and quite the baller, but the entire college
division is a lot to place in the hands of one guy plus a selected
handful of his friends. True that the UPA college open division has
one director, but there are many, many people involved in managing the
college division. If the college director steps down, there is always
someone ready and able to replace him. What happens if Skippy decides
to spend more time with his family (or start one if he doesn't have
one already) or Cyle gets a better job offer and cannot devote time to
this endeavor? Is everyone confident that these two are going to keep
dedicating there lives to college ultimate? If not, is everyone
convinced that they can be easily replaced, if life's rich demands get
the better of them, without having the house of cards come tumbling
down?

Even if they are willing to stick it out, having one guy plus a few
friends making all the decisions on formats, scheduling, eligibility,
qualification, etc. with no oversight seems absolutely ridiculous.
That's fine for one tournament, but for determining the college
championship?!!?

To me this issue should sit at the top of everyone's minds, in
addition to some of there others that have been beaten to death on
this chatgroup. Again, I saw Skippy play once. He was good, but he
wasn't god.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #6000 is a reply to message #5995] Tue, 11 November 2008 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
celebrated.alias
Messages: 38
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Nov 11, 1:06 pm, tal1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Completely different.
>
> That was prize money for 2 teams who won the most (And also subsidized
> it themselves with their tournament fees)  Technically, everyone had a
> chance for this.
>
> This is a sizable stipend and free jerseys, plus prize money,
> probably.  At least from my understanding.
>
> There's really no similarity at all.

Not completely different. I would say it's almost the same and this
year is merely an extension of last year's NCUS. Sure, "everyone had a
chance," but look at Vegas:
http://upa.org/scores/tourn.cgi?div=18&id=4444
.... how many teams had a realistic shot at winning Vegas, let alone
the NCUS prize money? I would say 4-7, max. Tournament fees subsidized
Wisconsin's season. If Wisco wasn't set on winning the $5k they
wouldn't have gone to Stanford. But they knew they could afford it if
they got the $5k. Presto.

Now we have more teams getting money (and no women's teams getting
money) and the money is coming from the same place: tournament fees
from NCUA teams. The free jerseys are free because Five is giving them
away (some teams already get free Patagonia jerseys. Don't count on
them giving up the Pata and the pro-deal, because that won't happen).

I haven't heard one peep about prize money, just travel budgets.
You're assuming, and u and me are both asses on account of that.

Mind you I am not judging any of this, but the time for clamoring
about small teams funding the big boys is not Nov '08, but rather Nov
'07, when the 'tourney fees become prize money' concept was unveiled.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #6004 is a reply to message #6000] Tue, 11 November 2008 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tiffany
Messages: 7
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
Cultimate should have run a new club season during the traditional
college season. Have TiV club be the flagship. It would be so much
less controversial and wouldn't ruin anything if it didn't work out.
Re: C1 - College Vs. Club [message #6016 is a reply to message #6000] Tue, 11 November 2008 14:07 Go to previous message
tal1286
Messages: 25
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 11, 3:49 pm, celebrated.al...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 11, 1:06 pm, tal1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Completely different.
>
> > That was prize money for 2 teams who won the most (And also subsidized
> > it themselves with their tournament fees)  Technically, everyone had a
> > chance for this.
>
> > This is a sizable stipend and free jerseys, plus prize money,
> > probably.  At least from my understanding.
>
> > There's really no similarity at all.
>
> Not completely different. I would say it's almost the same and this
> year is merely an extension of last year's NCUS. Sure, "everyone had a
> chance," but look at Vegas:http://upa.org/scores/tourn.cgi?div=18&id=4444
> ... how many teams had a realistic shot at winning Vegas, let alone
> the NCUS prize money? I would say 4-7, max. Tournament fees subsidized
> Wisconsin's season. If Wisco wasn't set on winning the $5k they
> wouldn't have gone to Stanford. But they knew they could afford it if
> they got the $5k. Presto.
>
> Now we have more teams getting money (and no women's teams getting
> money) and the money is coming from the same place: tournament fees
> from NCUA teams. The free jerseys are free because Five is giving them
> away (some teams already get free Patagonia jerseys. Don't count on
> them giving up the Pata and the pro-deal, because that won't happen).
>
> I haven't heard one peep about prize money, just travel budgets.
> You're assuming, and u and me are both asses on account of that.
>
> Mind you I am not judging any of this, but the time for clamoring
> about small teams funding the big boys is not Nov '08, but rather Nov
> '07, when the 'tourney fees become prize money' concept was unveiled.

I can't disagree with anything here. Because it's basically all true.

That being said, I disagree with one premise. I think that paying a
tournament fee where the money goes directly into the pockets of a
preselected group of teams (c1) is different from paying a tournament
fee where a small portion of it goes into a prize pool that is
essentially available to any team. While it is true that only a
select few teams have a realistic shot at winning, nobody can say that
they didn't have a chance to get their money back. They would have
had a chance, only to lose it due to a lack of skill, work ethic,
losing to superior athletes, etc...whatever.

I just think prize money is fundamentally different from preselected
teams receiving vouchers and assistance. I could be wrong but, to me,
It just has a different feel to it.
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