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C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5302] Wed, 05 November 2008 12:16 Go to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
In the film industry when you break for lunch (be it lunch, or dinner
it's always called lunch)the rule is talent and crew eat first...then
the extras. I worked as an extra once...once. Weekend at Bernies.
You showed up, got stuffed into a tent with 100-200 other extras, got
paid minimum wage and were barked at by directors according to the
color of your shirt instead of your name. As an extra my job was to
fill in the background and complete the picture so to speak.
According to some accounts, Cultimate's C-1 might just work the same
way.

C-1 to my limited understanding is asking for a bunch of college teams
pay $25 per head for a tourney that will ultimately foot the bill for
"the best" 25 teams in a showcased format. Is this correct or am I
off base?

There was only one response in the post "C1-Hold em' or Fold em'". He
said that he would not pay an entry fee to be treated like a second
class citizen. That got me thinking about a potential primary flaw in
the system if my understanding of how C-1 would work. Cultimate is
asking the "extras" to pay for the opportunity to not only complete
the tournament picture (fans, consumers, spectacle), but foot the bill
for "stars" with speaking parts. Meanwhile the stars get the VIP
treatment while the "B" teams are left waiting in the long lunch line
to feed off of what the crew and real actors left behind. I wouldn't
have a problem with this...if I were the VIP.

Solution. Charge the C-1 teams for the honor of playing in your elite
format. Make them buy in. If you are confident in your system have
each team buy in to the top 25 and at the end of the season the winner
gets their buy in back. 5 tournies=$1250. Operating Budget before
the first tourney of $31,250. You have a track record of hosting
great events by all accounts. This is about what most teams pay
anyway, right? I say there is your answer. Lots of questions, lots of
decisions. I'm just glad I get to watch it unfold.

To this date I've not worked as an extra since Weekend at Bernies.
I'm not above working as an extra but I have a name, a skill, and
deserve to be treated better than the average cattle that keep the
ranch going. Some of the teams left out of C-1 just might feel the
same way.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5308 is a reply to message #5302] Wed, 05 November 2008 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 3:16 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> In the film industry when you break for lunch (be it lunch, or dinner
> it's always called lunch)the rule is talent and crew eat first...then
> the extras.  I worked as an extra once...once.  Weekend at Bernies.
> You showed up, got stuffed into a tent with 100-200 other extras, got
> paid minimum wage and were barked at by directors according to the
> color of your shirt instead of your name.  As an extra my job was to
> fill in the background and complete the picture so to speak.
> According to some accounts, Cultimate's C-1 might just work the same
> way.
>
> C-1 to my limited understanding is asking for a bunch of college teams
> pay $25 per head for a tourney that will ultimately foot the bill for
> "the best" 25 teams in a showcased format.  Is this correct or am I
> off base?
>
> There was only one response in the post "C1-Hold em' or Fold em'".  He
> said that he would not pay an entry fee to be treated like a second
> class citizen.  That got me thinking about a potential primary flaw in
> the system if my understanding of how C-1 would work.  Cultimate is
> asking the "extras" to pay for the opportunity to not only complete
> the tournament picture (fans, consumers, spectacle), but foot the bill
> for "stars" with speaking parts.  Meanwhile the stars get the VIP
> treatment while the "B" teams are left waiting in the long lunch line
> to feed off of what the crew and real actors left behind.  I wouldn't
> have a problem with this...if I were the VIP.
>
> Solution.  Charge the C-1 teams for the honor of playing in your elite
> format.  Make them buy in.  If you are confident in your system have
> each team buy in to the top 25 and at the end of the season the winner
> gets their buy in back.  5 tournies=$1250.  Operating Budget before
> the first tourney of $31,250.  You have a track record of hosting
> great events by all accounts.  This is about what most teams pay
> anyway, right? I say there is your answer.  Lots of questions, lots of
> decisions.  I'm just glad I get to watch it unfold.
>
> To this date I've not worked as an extra since Weekend at Bernies.
> I'm not above working as an extra but I have a name, a skill, and
> deserve to be treated better than the average cattle that keep the
> ranch going.  Some of the teams left out of C-1 just might feel the
> same way.

arent all the eliminated sectionalists the "extras" of upa comp
already though?.......weather they know/accept it or not.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5310 is a reply to message #5308] Wed, 05 November 2008 12:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yfc1997
Messages: 82
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Nov 5, 12:23 pm, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
> On Nov 5, 3:16 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In the film industry when you break for lunch (be it lunch, or dinner
> > it's always called lunch)the rule is talent and crew eat first...then
> > the extras.  I worked as an extra once...once.  Weekend at Bernies.
> > You showed up, got stuffed into a tent with 100-200 other extras, got
> > paid minimum wage and were barked at by directors according to the
> > color of your shirt instead of your name.  As an extra my job was to
> > fill in the background and complete the picture so to speak.
> > According to some accounts, Cultimate's C-1 might just work the same
> > way.
>
> > C-1 to my limited understanding is asking for a bunch of college teams
> > pay $25 per head for a tourney that will ultimately foot the bill for
> > "the best" 25 teams in a showcased format.  Is this correct or am I
> > off base?
>
> > There was only one response in the post "C1-Hold em' or Fold em'".  He
> > said that he would not pay an entry fee to be treated like a second
> > class citizen.  That got me thinking about a potential primary flaw in
> > the system if my understanding of how C-1 would work.  Cultimate is
> > asking the "extras" to pay for the opportunity to not only complete
> > the tournament picture (fans, consumers, spectacle), but foot the bill
> > for "stars" with speaking parts.  Meanwhile the stars get the VIP
> > treatment while the "B" teams are left waiting in the long lunch line
> > to feed off of what the crew and real actors left behind.  I wouldn't
> > have a problem with this...if I were the VIP.
>
> > Solution.  Charge the C-1 teams for the honor of playing in your elite
> > format.  Make them buy in.  If you are confident in your system have
> > each team buy in to the top 25 and at the end of the season the winner
> > gets their buy in back.  5 tournies=$1250.  Operating Budget before
> > the first tourney of $31,250.  You have a track record of hosting
> > great events by all accounts.  This is about what most teams pay
> > anyway, right? I say there is your answer.  Lots of questions, lots of
> > decisions.  I'm just glad I get to watch it unfold.
>
> > To this date I've not worked as an extra since Weekend at Bernies.
> > I'm not above working as an extra but I have a name, a skill, and
> > deserve to be treated better than the average cattle that keep the
> > ranch going.  Some of the teams left out of C-1 just might feel the
> > same way.
>
> arent all the eliminated sectionalists the "extras" of upa comp
> already though?.......weather they know/accept it or not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i'm pretty sure that the extra players fee nationals qualifiers have
to pay to attend nationals ($40 or $45 or something) covers the
expenses of running the tournament. maybe not the overhead of upa
paid staff positions that work on the tournament (although they do a
lot more than just that, obviously), but it's not like sectionals
teams are subsidizing the beer garden at nationals.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5317 is a reply to message #5310] Wed, 05 November 2008 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dave Branick
Messages: 127
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> You think mcdonalds burgers
> are small now????? just think how small they would be without any comp.

I've been saying all along that McDonald's should sell Sliders!
Forget those snack wrap things, sliders are where it's at!
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5318 is a reply to message #5310] Wed, 05 November 2008 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 3:26 pm, yfc1...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 5, 12:23 pm, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 5, 3:16 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > In the film industry when you break for lunch (be it lunch, or dinner
> > > it's always called lunch)the rule is talent and crew eat first...then
> > > the extras.  I worked as an extra once...once.  Weekend at Bernies.
> > > You showed up, got stuffed into a tent with 100-200 other extras, got
> > > paid minimum wage and were barked at by directors according to the
> > > color of your shirt instead of your name.  As an extra my job was to
> > > fill in the background and complete the picture so to speak.
> > > According to some accounts, Cultimate's C-1 might just work the same
> > > way.
>
> > > C-1 to my limited understanding is asking for a bunch of college teams
> > > pay $25 per head for a tourney that will ultimately foot the bill for
> > > "the best" 25 teams in a showcased format.  Is this correct or am I
> > > off base?
>
> > > There was only one response in the post "C1-Hold em' or Fold em'".  He
> > > said that he would not pay an entry fee to be treated like a second
> > > class citizen.  That got me thinking about a potential primary flaw in
> > > the system if my understanding of how C-1 would work.  Cultimate is
> > > asking the "extras" to pay for the opportunity to not only complete
> > > the tournament picture (fans, consumers, spectacle), but foot the bill
> > > for "stars" with speaking parts.  Meanwhile the stars get the VIP
> > > treatment while the "B" teams are left waiting in the long lunch line
> > > to feed off of what the crew and real actors left behind.  I wouldn't
> > > have a problem with this...if I were the VIP.
>
> > > Solution.  Charge the C-1 teams for the honor of playing in your elite
> > > format.  Make them buy in.  If you are confident in your system have
> > > each team buy in to the top 25 and at the end of the season the winner
> > > gets their buy in back.  5 tournies=$1250.  Operating Budget before
> > > the first tourney of $31,250.  You have a track record of hosting
> > > great events by all accounts.  This is about what most teams pay
> > > anyway, right? I say there is your answer.  Lots of questions, lots of
> > > decisions.  I'm just glad I get to watch it unfold.
>
> > > To this date I've not worked as an extra since Weekend at Bernies.
> > > I'm not above working as an extra but I have a name, a skill, and
> > > deserve to be treated better than the average cattle that keep the
> > > ranch going.  Some of the teams left out of C-1 just might feel the
> > > same way.
>
> > arent all the eliminated sectionalists the "extras" of upa comp
> > already though?.......weather they know/accept it or not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> i'm pretty sure that the extra players fee nationals qualifiers have
> to pay to attend nationals ($40 or $45 or something) covers the
> expenses of running the tournament.  maybe not the overhead of upa
> paid staff positions that work on the tournament (although they do a
> lot more than just that, obviously), but it's not like sectionals
> teams are subsidizing the beer garden at nationals.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

what ARE they susidizing with that money then? i mean c'mon......70 %
of all dues revenue (WHICH IS A LOT OF KABLINGY....you do the math)
coming from teams getting the scrapings of the administrative
programmin facilitation that is provided by the upa just to do things
like do webcasts of "only the best teams"......put out a newsletter
with articals and photos of "only the best teams and
players".......pour tons of membership funds and resourses into team
usa, which benefits "only the best players". dont be a fool......or a
sucker. eliminated sectionalists are gettin shafted so dont cry foul
on cultimate without doing so on the upa too. the question
is.....dollar for dollar, who has a better product AND should it have
taken cultimate to motivate the upa to finally respond/act with some
urgency in progressing and evolving the sport.

if the answer to that second question is yes, then the comp that
cultimate is providing is a good thing. You think mcdonalds burgers
are small now????? just think how small they would be without any comp.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5320 is a reply to message #5317] Wed, 05 November 2008 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 4:46 pm, Dave Branick <TUFris...@aol.com> wrote:
> I've been saying all along that McDonald's should sell Sliders!

isnt that what their burgers already are?
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5321 is a reply to message #5318] Wed, 05 November 2008 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 4:39 pm, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
>
> what ARE they susidizing with that money then?  i mean c'mon......70 %
> of all dues revenue (WHICH IS A LOT OF KABLINGY....you do the math)
> coming from teams getting the scrapings of the administrative
> programmin facilitation that is provided by the upa  just to do things
> like do webcasts of "only the best teams"......put out a newsletter
> with articals and photos of "only the best teams and
> players".......pour tons of membership funds and resourses into team
> usa, which benefits "only the best players".


and oh yea......providing observers for "only the best teams"
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5322 is a reply to message #5318] Wed, 05 November 2008 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith.Larsen.TX
Messages: 41
Registered: September 2008
Member
Teams get charged tournament dues at Sectionals, UPA player dues don't
don't go to Sectionals and Regionals AT ALL. Not the best comparison.

UPA is a non-profit organization so no one is banking of UPA dues,
what about C1? I'm assuming they won't be applying for non-profit
status...
-Keith
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5327 is a reply to message #5322] Wed, 05 November 2008 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 4:59 pm, Keith.Larsen...@gmail.com wrote:
> Teams get charged tournament dues at Sectionals, UPA player dues don't
> don't go to Sectionals and Regionals AT ALL.

what DO they go towards.......because, c'mon, pullin in 40 bucks per
player for one (probably mediocre) tourny that is subed out to the
unpaid upa sectional footsoldiers that do all the work. That dosent
sound like kind of a scam to you???? when the last time they gave you
a breakdown of their budget??
---------------------------------------------------


Not the best comparison.

seems like a perfect comp to me.
------------------------------------------------------------
>
> UPA is a non-profit organization so no one is banking of UPA dues,

sure someone is.........and they are the elite teams. You cant tell
me they dont get more attention and less neglect than the lower level
teams.
------------------------------------------------------------ -----
> what about C1? I'm assuming they won't be applying for non-profit
> status...

thats their own business. The upa is sitting on 500K of dues revenue
surpluss......is anybody upa their ass (besides me) as to how that
moneys gettin spent?
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5330 is a reply to message #5327] Wed, 05 November 2008 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith.Larsen.TX
Messages: 41
Registered: September 2008
Member
I'm not "upa their ass" about my dues because I get 1-3 tournaments, a
score reporting system, an oberver system, hundreds of volunteers that
get some money from the UPA for travel, I get a quarterly magazine, a
subscription FREE webcast of finals that I don't have to pay dues for,
or sign up for.

I've seen my old college section grow from 7 open and 0 women teams to
20+ open, and 10+ womens in the last 5 years.

Yes, I agree that they have been very sluggish about chance, we don't
need committees for some of the changes that need to be made, they
need to go to a vote now and get done, the players are tired of slow
program, I'm sorry UPA but the "what we've accomplished" in the last 5
years of the college series is not that impressive. "Play finals in a
stadium" the local high school isn't a "stadium" come on...

But, the UPA is not scamming its players, it is really trying, ever
think the surplus might be going to purchase fields, or something big?
Have you asked the tres. for the upa or just complained on
rec.sport.disc...

Come on, grow up a little, $40/person isn't THAT much
-Keith L
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5334 is a reply to message #5318] Wed, 05 November 2008 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pippin
Messages: 81
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Nov 5, 4:39 pm, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
> On Nov 5, 3:26 pm, yfc1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 5, 12:23 pm, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 5, 3:16 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In the film industry when you break for lunch (be it lunch, or dinner
> > > > it's always called lunch)the rule is talent and crew eat first...then
> > > > the extras.  I worked as an extra once...once.  Weekend at Bernies.
> > > > You showed up, got stuffed into a tent with 100-200 other extras, got
> > > > paid minimum wage and were barked at by directors according to the
> > > > color of your shirt instead of your name.  As an extra my job was to
> > > > fill in the background and complete the picture so to speak.
> > > > According to some accounts, Cultimate's C-1 might just work the same
> > > > way.
>
> > > > C-1 to my limited understanding is asking for a bunch of college teams
> > > > pay $25 per head for a tourney that will ultimately foot the bill for
> > > > "the best" 25 teams in a showcased format.  Is this correct or am I
> > > > off base?
>
> > > > There was only one response in the post "C1-Hold em' or Fold em'".  He
> > > > said that he would not pay an entry fee to be treated like a second
> > > > class citizen.  That got me thinking about a potential primary flaw in
> > > > the system if my understanding of how C-1 would work.  Cultimate is
> > > > asking the "extras" to pay for the opportunity to not only complete
> > > > the tournament picture (fans, consumers, spectacle), but foot the bill
> > > > for "stars" with speaking parts.  Meanwhile the stars get the VIP
> > > > treatment while the "B" teams are left waiting in the long lunch line
> > > > to feed off of what the crew and real actors left behind.  I wouldn't
> > > > have a problem with this...if I were the VIP.
>
> > > > Solution.  Charge the C-1 teams for the honor of playing in your elite
> > > > format.  Make them buy in.  If you are confident in your system have
> > > > each team buy in to the top 25 and at the end of the season the winner
> > > > gets their buy in back.  5 tournies=$1250.  Operating Budget before
> > > > the first tourney of $31,250.  You have a track record of hosting
> > > > great events by all accounts.  This is about what most teams pay
> > > > anyway, right? I say there is your answer.  Lots of questions, lots of
> > > > decisions.  I'm just glad I get to watch it unfold.
>
> > > > To this date I've not worked as an extra since Weekend at Bernies.
> > > > I'm not above working as an extra but I have a name, a skill, and
> > > > deserve to be treated better than the average cattle that keep the
> > > > ranch going.  Some of the teams left out of C-1 just might feel the
> > > > same way.
>
> > > arent all the eliminated sectionalists the "extras" of upa comp
> > > already though?.......weather they know/accept it or not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > i'm pretty sure that the extra players fee nationals qualifiers have
> > to pay to attend nationals ($40 or $45 or something) covers the
> > expenses of running the tournament.  maybe not the overhead of upa
> > paid staff positions that work on the tournament (although they do a
> > lot more than just that, obviously), but it's not like sectionals
> > teams are subsidizing the beer garden at nationals.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> what ARE they susidizing with that money then?  i mean c'mon......70 %
> of all dues revenue (WHICH IS A LOT OF KABLINGY....you do the math)
> coming from teams getting the scrapings of the administrative
> programmin facilitation that is provided by the upa  just to do things
> like do webcasts of "only the best teams"......put out a newsletter
> with articals and photos of "only the best teams and
> players".......pour tons of membership funds and resourses into team
> usa, which benefits "only the best players".  dont be a fool......or a
> sucker.  eliminated sectionalists are gettin shafted so dont cry foul
> on cultimate without doing so on the upa too.  the question
> is.....dollar for dollar, who has a better product AND should it have
> taken cultimate to motivate the upa to finally respond/act with some
> urgency in progressing and evolving the sport.
>
> if the answer to that second question is yes, then the comp that
> cultimate is providing is a good thing. You think mcdonalds burgers
> are small now????? just think how small they would be without any comp.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Your points here are ridiculous. I like and dislike many things about
both the UPA and C1 and am working out my own opinions on the matter,
but your arguments are terrible.

Let me explain and start with a bio of my own playing experience to
put this in perspective.

I played at a crappy college program, we got better, they recently
made regionals this year (i graduated already). I play club for
Puppet Regime, so while my college ultimate was lower level, club wise
I play at a much higher level. This gives me a perspective from both
side of the spectrum.

When I was in college, despite the fact the newsletter could have been
produced in a more timely fashion, I thought it was great. Some cool
photos, the injury timeout bit, a few articles and whatnot. Overall
not bad, and something I enjoyed. If the news letter had pictures and
articles about Adelphi Ultimate, or even Hofstra for that matter
(where I went to school) it would have been really lame. Sure it may
be cool to be in the magazine, but seriously even I wouldn't want to
read about my crappy team or the even crappier team from down the
highway (sorry adelphi you guys were pretty bad). And let me be clear
I love myself (a ton) yet i know full well the magazine would have
been super lame if I was in it back then. Just because I payed $40 to
be in the upa and play in the series doesnt mean I wanted the magazine
to be about "lower level" teams like mine. that shit would be lame.
I wanted to see great pictures and read about the top teams fighting
for the title. That is what sports are about. even though in theory
my team had a chance to compete for the title we were never going to
win it. And as such, I loved reading about teams that were awesome.
It helps create a fan base.

And as for webcasts, the day I watch a webcast of a team that can't
win more than one or two games at college sectionals will be a sad,
sad day, and I think everyone would agree with this. But to watch
good teams battle is something I would easily have spent my $40 in
dues on. Sure most college teams are eliminated early on, and maybe
there is some grounds for compalining that the UPA doesn't cater to
their needs, but just because you pay dues doesn't mean you have to be
featured in a magazine or a video. Think about it this way, lets say
you have to pay team dues for ...lets just say a soccer team, but you
aren't very good, but you are still on the team. If you want to be on
the team knowing the $40 you spend in dues doesn't always go directly
towards yourself (better players get more playing time on the field
and the fee covers the refs, who, if they aren't really playing don't
apply to them) then you just pay the dues and deal with it. Just
because you pay $40 and don't see every penny returned soley for your
own needs/wants doesnt mean something is wrong with the system. You
just have to deal with it. You wanted to be on the team and play when
you could...and that was the trade off, a measly $40.

As for Team USA I do not know tons about how this works, but I have
some friends who played Junior worlds. From what I hear while they
may receive financial support they still have to absorb a large
portion of the costs. If you are good enough to be on Team USA and
represent the best this country has to offer than I think you should
get some financial help. The better team USA does the better ultimate
in the US gets. Think about this. Soccer US women win the Gold medal
(not looking up years...sorry) and dominate world competition. Girls
soccer enrollment explodes in the US. Sure team USA's resluts might
not be as drastic in the ultimate world, but every bit helps. It
gives people role models, it makes someone workout that much harder
the next time. Making ultimate better at each step. When the level
of play keeps rising everyone gets better, when everyone gets better,
ultimate will eventulally get more exposure. Isn't that what you
want, cheerleaders and matching trucker hats.

-Pippin
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5336 is a reply to message #5322] Wed, 05 November 2008 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 4:59 pm, Keith.Larsen...@gmail.com wrote:
> Teams get charged tournament dues at Sectionals, UPA player dues don't
> don't go to Sectionals and Regionals AT ALL. Not the best comparison.
>
> UPA is a non-profit organization so no one is banking of UPA dues,
> what about C1? I'm assuming they won't be applying for non-profit
> status...
> -Keith

Cultimate has said that they plan on forming their own non-profit
organization, the NCUA, and will be applying for a less stringent form
of non-profit status. It's my impression that this organization will
be distinct from Cultimate's event organizing business.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5338 is a reply to message #5302] Wed, 05 November 2008 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Smellsworth
Messages: 90
Registered: October 2008
Member
" Weekend at Bernies. You showed up, got stuffed into a tent with
100-200 other extras, got
paid minimum wage and were barked at by directors according to the
color of your shirt instead of your name."

So... You passed up an opportunity to possibly work on the set of
Weekend at Bernie's 2 ?? There goes your credibility. Give the
people what they want, more about Weekend at Bernie's.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5339 is a reply to message #5327] Wed, 05 November 2008 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
++++the question
is.....dollar for dollar, who has a better product... ++++

Fact. Right now dollar for dollar the UPA is providing the best comp,
only because C1 is just an idea in the heads of a couple entrepeneuers
and RSD and is not in existence.

We currently live in a free market. If I was on a team that was not
selected, I would not compete in Cultimate events unless my team was
given an opportunity to compete for the chance to play in a "power"
event. If I was selected as the top 25, I'd think it was probably
pretty cool, until the next year when my team was arbitrarily taken
out of the top 25.

For C1 to work it needs to find a way to make it non-dependent upon
players to foot the bill for the "chosen ones". Say all you want
about sectionals and the UPA dues that each player is required to pay,
but if I know that by showing up at sectionals I have the chance to
beat Ring of Fire, Warriors, Wilmington, and any other NC team to go
to regionals and then Nat'ls, then I feel like I've had my fair
shake. But this top 25 selection process is silly. I can't help but
think some teams were selected due to the resources they bring to the
table (ie: field space)

I'm not choosing sides. I'm not telling Cultimate not to do it. I'm
saying let the market decide what will succeed. You can draw up all
the analogies of cheeseburgers you want, but ultimately the consumer
decides whether Happy Burger will survive. I've got no dog in this
fight.

I encourage C1 teams to go for it this year, but I'd do so with some
serious caveats with the complete understanding that the pot o' gold
may not be beneath the Cultimate Rainbow, but where it has rested for
decades with the UPA.

Lastly, The Herd on Espn Radio uses the stripper analogy all the
time. You never marry the stripper. Sure they are hot and sexy and
fun in the sack, but ultimately the beauty is only skin deep and
really the stripper is high maintenance and full of surprises...is it
possible that C1 is the stripper of College Ultimate. Let's hope the
UPA isn't vindictive and prevent any ship jumpers from playing future
events. Ouch. Let the market decide and PLAY BALL!
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5347 is a reply to message #5334] Wed, 05 November 2008 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
party.dlh
Messages: 7
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
The main thing I see my dues going towards is insurance for
tournaments. The way I figure it, my dues have already paid for
themselves months before the club series begins, in the form of the
following:

(a) lower tournament fees because the tournaments that I go to don't
have to privately insure themselves,

and

(b) those tournaments that I attend that simply would not happen
without the insurance that the UPA provides.

Just try to go out and secure a set of municipal fields without some
insurance....the UPA provides this for me.

I gather that Toad doesn't understand this because he doesn't actually
*play* ultimate, he's just a full time RSD troll.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5350 is a reply to message #5334] Wed, 05 November 2008 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 5:35 pm, Pippin <Aulett...@gmail.com> wrote:
 Just because I payed $40 to
> be in the upa and play in the series doesnt mean I wanted the magazine
> to be about "lower level" teams like mine.  that shit would be lame.


yea....just like it would if the comp included "lower level teams like
yours". If no one wants to see it in a mag then why would we want to
see it (or play against it) in real life?
------------------------------------------------------------ -----
> I wanted to see great pictures and read about the top teams fighting
> for the title.  That is what sports are about.


exactly.....which is what cultimate is trying to do with ulti.
----------------------------------------------------------


 even though in theory
> my team had a chance to compete for the title we were never going to
> win it.

great point......thats why c1 is weeding you out of the "top level".
dosent mean they wont provide lower levels of competition tiers for
you to compete in.......that are more condusive to "your
level"......which may end up being a better playing experience than
what the upa provides.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---


 And as such, I loved reading about teams that were awesome.
> It helps create a fan base.

i dont see no fan base
----------------------------------------------------
>
> And as for webcasts, the day I watch a webcast of a team that can't
> win more than one or two games at college sectionals will be a sad,
> sad day


its all relitive......to some, having to sit thru that webcast all
sunday would be pretty sad in itself.
------------------------------------------------------------ ----



, and I think everyone would agree with this.  But to watch
> good teams battle is something I would easily have spent my $40 in
> dues on.

cool, cut me a check and i'll share it with those of us that didnt
watch it.
------------------------------------------------------



 Sure most college teams are eliminated early on, and maybe
> there is some grounds for compalining that the UPA doesn't cater to
> their needs


so lets hear it then
---------------------------------------------------------



, but just because you pay dues doesn't mean you have to be
> featured in a magazine or a video.  Think about it this way, lets say
> you have to pay team dues for ...lets just say a soccer team, but you
> aren't very good, but you are still on the team.  If you want to be on
> the team knowing the $40 you spend in dues doesn't always go directly
> towards yourself (better players get more playing time on the field
> and the fee covers the refs, who, if they aren't really playing don't
> apply to them) then you just pay the dues and deal with it. Just
> because you pay $40 and don't see every penny returned soley for your
> own needs/wants doesnt mean something is wrong with the system.  You
> just have to deal with it.

i dont like that analogy
---------------------------------------------------


 >
> As for Team USA I do not know tons about how this works, but I have
> some friends who played Junior worlds.  From what I hear while they
> may receive financial support they still have to absorb a large
> portion of the costs.

good. they are the ones getting the experience.
-------------------------------------------------


 If you are good enough to be on Team USA and
> represent the best this country has to offer than I think you should
> get some financial help.

sure they should.....but it should come in the form of sponsorship of
a profitable company or organization (not a non profit one).
----------------------------------------------


 The better team USA does the better ultimate
> in the US gets.

and????
----------------------------------------



 Think about this.  Soccer US women win the Gold medal
> (not looking up years...sorry) and dominate world competition.  Girls
> soccer enrollment explodes in the US.  Sure team USA's resluts might
> not be as drastic in the ultimate world, but every bit helps.  It
> gives people role models, it makes someone workout that much harder
> the next time.  Making ultimate better at each step.  When the level
> of play keeps rising everyone gets better, when everyone gets better,
> ultimate will eventulally get more exposure.  Isn't that what you
> want, cheerleaders and matching trucker hats.

dancin girls.....yes. hats.....no. So you seem to be sayin that a
more concentrated top down approach can really enhance the bottom up
approach of marketing and promoting ultimate, eh??? and you are
opposed to c1 for what reason again???
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5397 is a reply to message #5330] Thu, 06 November 2008 04:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 5:29 pm, Keith.Larsen...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Come on, grow up a little, $40/person isn't THAT much
> -Keith L


then why you complaining about the $25/person that cultimate intends
to charge.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5398 is a reply to message #5330] Thu, 06 November 2008 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 5:29 pm, Keith.Larsen...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not "upa their ass" about my dues because I get 1-3 tournaments


yea but 60% of ya only get one.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------


, a
> score reporting system

but what good does that do ya once you get eliminated at sectioals.
and are you sure that is somthing that was created and is maintaimed
via upa efforts/resourses???
------------------------------------------------------------ -----


, an oberver system,


uhmmm, i didnt see observer one at the sectional event i attended this
past fall.
-----------------------------------------------------------



hundreds of volunteers that
> get some money from the UPA for travel,


how many volunteers do you think it takes to put on the one mediocre
sectionals tourny that the upa gets 70% of its dues rev from????
-------------------------------------------------------



I get a quarterly magazine,


thats funny......all i get is a quarterly fly swatter.(when and if i
get it)
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------


a
> subscription FREE webcast of finals that I don't have to pay dues for,
> or sign up for.


but you would have gotten that with or without being a upa
member........so, sorry.....ya just cant count that one.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5412 is a reply to message #5350] Thu, 06 November 2008 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pippin
Messages: 81
Registered: October 2008
Member
>
> dancin girls.....yes.  hats.....no.  So you seem to be sayin that a
> more concentrated top down approach can really enhance the bottom up
> approach of marketing and promoting ultimate, eh???  and you are
> opposed to c1 for what reason again???

Many of your choppy cuts and pastes to my post were borderline
mentally challenged. Your points sucked.

And try reading the beginning again...I know it may be hard for you
but try to get through it. I never said I was opposed to C1...you
just make shit up all the time.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5420 is a reply to message #5398] Thu, 06 November 2008 06:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith.Larsen.TX
Messages: 41
Registered: September 2008
Member
>> "The upa is sitting on 500K of dues revenue surpluss"

Where do you get your numbers for this? I'm not saying I don't believe
it exists, just that if you have never seen a financial report where
are you getting your data? Personally I'd love to see it myself.

Here is a link for you to submit a proposal:
http://www.upa.org/upa/board/proposal

-Keith L
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5421 is a reply to message #5347] Thu, 06 November 2008 07:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
matty j
Messages: 250
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 7:21 pm, party....@gmail.com wrote:
> The main thing I see my dues going towards is insurance for
> tournaments.  The way I figure it, my dues have already paid for
> themselves months before the club series begins, in the form of the
> following:
>
> (a) lower tournament fees because the tournaments that I go to don't
> have to privately insure themselves,
>
> and
>
> (b) those tournaments that I attend that simply would not happen
> without the insurance that the UPA provides.
>
> Just try to go out and secure a set of municipal fields without some
> insurance....the UPA provides this for me.
>
> I gather that Toad doesn't understand this because he doesn't actually
> *play* ultimate, he's just a full time RSD troll.

Insurance is actually easy and relatively cheap to obtain for a
weekend tournament.
I've done it numerous times, as have many others without having to
jack up tournament costs beyond what people are used to paying.
In the Northeast recent examples are Turkey Bowl, GrandMasters
Montreal, GrandMasters Hamptons. all privately insured and do not
require UPA membership to compete in.
Additionallly, many summer leagues do no rely on UPA for insurance.
Not having to have teams go thru the upa waiver and dues paying
registration process is in fact preferrable to most people who attend
these non-upa sanctioned tournaments and as an organizer I'm all too
happy to not have to deal with this part of the process (as are most
captains I've spoken to), and try to collect dues, waivers, etc. only
to find out that Joe Blow lied when he told you he was a current upa
member and now you have to chase him down for $$$ he owes you.
it's much simpler to run a tournament without upa insurance than it is
with.

MJ
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5435 is a reply to message #5339] Thu, 06 November 2008 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peterson
Messages: 82
Registered: September 2008
Member
> Lastly, The Herd on Espn Radio uses the stripper analogy all the
> time.  You never marry the stripper.  Sure they are hot and sexy and
> fun in the sack, but ultimately the beauty is only skin deep and
> really the stripper is high maintenance and full of surprises...is it
> possible that C1 is the stripper of College Ultimate.  Let's hope the
> UPA isn't vindictive and prevent any ship jumpers from playing future
> events.  Ouch.  Let the market decide and PLAY BALL!


Under this analogy your you want your wife to let you back in the
house when you spent the entire spring at
Pure Gold. I've got some room in my garage.

Peterson
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5438 is a reply to message #5420] Thu, 06 November 2008 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rob.h.stone
Messages: 25
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
GUYS!

It's called CCO now, recognize!
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5440 is a reply to message #5420] Thu, 06 November 2008 08:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 6, 9:49 am, Keith.Larsen...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> "The upa is sitting on 500K of dues revenue surpluss"
>
> Where do you get your numbers for this? I'm not saying I don't believe
> it exists, just that if you have never seen a financial report where
> are you getting your data? Personally I'd love to see it myself.


I remember the upa posting that info somewhere in the past year. call
em for yourself and find out if i;m wrong.
---------------------------------------------------
>
> Here is a link for you to submit a proposal:http://www.upa.org/upa/board/proposal


i'm not a proposer.....i'm a critic
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5442 is a reply to message #5435] Thu, 06 November 2008 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 6, 11:14 am, Peterson <pevesteter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Lastly, The Herd on Espn Radio uses the stripper analogy all the
> > time.  You never marry the stripper.  Sure they are hot and sexy and
> > fun in the sack, but ultimately the beauty is only skin deep and
> > really the stripper is high maintenance and full of surprises...is it
> > possible that C1 is the stripper of College Ultimate.  Let's hope the
> > UPA isn't vindictive and prevent any ship jumpers from playing future
> > events.  Ouch.  Let the market decide and PLAY BALL!
>
> Under this analogy your you want your wife to let you back in the
> house when you spent the entire spring at
> Pure Gold.  I've got some room in my garage.
>
> Peterson

under your analogy the upa would be you wife......no wonder the
divorce rate is so high these days.

cant live with em, cant kill em.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5443 is a reply to message #5339] Thu, 06 November 2008 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 5, 6:01 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
 You can draw up all
> the analogies of cheeseburgers you want

that was your analogy. Personally i dont really see ANY analogies for
this situation(besides the school one). its very unique situation.
----------------------------------------------

> I encourage C1 teams to go for it this year, but I'd do so with some
> serious caveats with the complete understanding that the pot o' gold
> may not be beneath the Cultimate Rainbow, but where it has rested for
> decades with the UPA.

seriously??? you call what the upa offers as a "pot of gold". back in
the day boulder 4th was known to be more competitive than nationals.
maybe not as coveted.....but more competitive......AND an overall
better event.
------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Lastly, The Herd on Espn Radio uses the stripper analogy all the
> time.  You never marry the stripper.  Sure they are hot and sexy and
> fun in the sack, but ultimately the beauty is only skin deep and
> really the stripper is high maintenance and full of surprises...is it
> possible that C1 is the stripper of College Ultimate.

I doubt any teams are making any more than a one year commitment at
this time......which hardly constitutes marraige. Or constitutes
cultimate being, what the herd would equate to, a stripper in this
scenerio. In fact, i would say that the herd (as well as zillions
others.......but not ND fans obviously) would be able to "live happily
ever after" if college football were to have the balls to create a 25
team (actually i could see them adjusting to 35 teams) D1 college
league.

And didnt your brother marry a stripper..... hows that relationship
working?
------------------------------------------------------------ -




 Let's hope the
> UPA isn't vindictive

pffft, hope in one hand, shit in the other
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5449 is a reply to message #5440] Thu, 06 November 2008 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TWOLAPS
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
> > Here is a link for you to submit a proposal:http://www.upa.org/upa/board/proposal
>
> i'm not a proposer.....i'm a critic

Translation: If I actually sat down and wrote a concise, clear
proposal and the UPA did something about my proposal, then I would
have one less thing to rant about on RSD, and it would be counter-
intuitive to my statement that the UPA BoD is a bunch of fat,
incompetent, strong-armed dictators who will do what they want, when
they want with the money "you idiots" spend. Just think though, if
they did throw your proposal away, then you would have concrete
evidence of the BoD trying to keep their actions private and their
desire to keep the "average player" out of the loop.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5452 is a reply to message #5449] Thu, 06 November 2008 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 6, 12:05 pm, TWOLAPS <Jturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Here is a link for you to submit a proposal:http://www.upa.org/upa/board/proposal
>
> > i'm not a proposer.....i'm a critic
>
> Translation:  If I actually sat down and wrote a concise, clear
> proposal and the UPA did something about my proposal, then I would
> have one less thing to rant about on RSD, and it would be counter-
> intuitive to my statement that the UPA BoD is a bunch of fat,
> incompetent, strong-armed dictators who will do what they want, when
> they want with the money "you idiots" spend.  Just think though, if
> they did throw your proposal away, then you would have concrete
> evidence of the BoD trying to keep their actions private and their
> desire to keep the "average player" out of the loop.

i've benn proprosing the IRS to the for YEARS (that hey apparently
have balked on). The fact is that i KNOW they are too stupid,
stubborn and spirit centric to bite on any of my other
proplosals.......so why should i (or anyone else) bother. Dont you
know that they have their own agenda that dosent include anything that
isnt somehow "spirit" related.

Now i did write up a proposal that is availiable for them at the
huddle. go read it.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5495 is a reply to message #5452] Thu, 06 November 2008 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
{so why should i (or anyone else) bother}

"If at first you don't succeed, never try again" Homer J. Simpson
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5522 is a reply to message #5495] Thu, 06 November 2008 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dub dub
Messages: 28
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 6, 5:14 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> {so why should i (or anyone else) bother}
>
> "If at first you don't succeed, never try again"  Homer J. Simpson

"Trying is the first step towards failure" Homer J. Simpson
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5541 is a reply to message #5442] Fri, 07 November 2008 02:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boz.joey
Messages: 11
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
On Nov 6, 8:54 am, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
> On Nov 6, 11:14 am, Peterson <pevesteter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Lastly, The Herd on Espn Radio uses the stripper analogy all the
> > > time.  You never marry the stripper.  Sure they are hot and sexy and
> > > fun in the sack, but ultimately the beauty is only skin deep and
> > > really the stripper is high maintenance and full of surprises...is it
> > > possible that C1 is the stripper of College Ultimate.  Let's hope the
> > > UPA isn't vindictive and prevent any ship jumpers from playing future
> > > events.  Ouch.  Let the market decide and PLAY BALL!
>
> > Under this analogy your you want your wife to let you back in the
> > house when you spent the entire spring at
> > Pure Gold.  I've got some room in my garage.
>
> > Peterson
>
> under your analogy the upa would be you wife......no wonder the
> divorce rate is so high these days.
>
> cant live with em, cant kill em.

You aren't funny, and you aren't smart. I've only been reading RSD
for three weeks and I already hate you. I think your posts actually
make me stupider.
Die. Please.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5542 is a reply to message #5541] Fri, 07 November 2008 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Nov 7, 5:21 am, boz.j...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 6, 8:54 am, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 6, 11:14 am, Peterson <pevesteter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Lastly, The Herd on Espn Radio uses the stripper analogy all the
> > > > time.  You never marry the stripper.  Sure they are hot and sexy and
> > > > fun in the sack, but ultimately the beauty is only skin deep and
> > > > really the stripper is high maintenance and full of surprises...is it
> > > > possible that C1 is the stripper of College Ultimate.  Let's hope the
> > > > UPA isn't vindictive and prevent any ship jumpers from playing future
> > > > events.  Ouch.  Let the market decide and PLAY BALL!
>
> > > Under this analogy your you want your wife to let you back in the
> > > house when you spent the entire spring at
> > > Pure Gold.  I've got some room in my garage.
>
> > > Peterson
>
> > under your analogy the upa would be you wife......no wonder the
> > divorce rate is so high these days.
>
> > cant live with em, cant kill em.
>
> You aren't funny, and you aren't smart.  I've only been reading RSD
> for three weeks and I already hate you.  I think your posts actually
> make me stupider.
> Die.  Please.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

boz, whom do you wish to die? Please specify. Wagen, Peterson, or
Toad? or all of the above.
Re: C-1, Extras and Ultimate [message #5571 is a reply to message #5542] Fri, 07 November 2008 09:44 Go to previous message
boz.joey
Messages: 11
Registered: November 2008
Junior Member
I would have thought that it was obvious, but I was talking about
Toad.
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