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Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4579] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:28 Go to next message
tebewebb
Messages: 26
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
I'm calling it right now.

Sockeye loses to DW, beats Goat, Goat beats DW, they all end up 2-1,
and Sockeye goes down on points.

But then they come back up the hard way to win it all!

Stephen
Violently Happy
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4580 is a reply to message #4579] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tebewebb
Messages: 26
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 11:30 am, Lynchie <andrewlync...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 8:28 am, tebew...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I'm calling it right now.

And this is w/ DW up 13-11, BTW.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4581 is a reply to message #4579] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lynchie
Messages: 50
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 8:28 am, tebew...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm calling it right now.
>
> Sockeye loses to DW, beats Goat, Goat beats DW, they all end up 2-1,
> and Sockeye goes down on points.
>
> But then they come back up the hard way to win it all!
>
> Stephen
> Violently Happy

Too bad DW and the Fish are both losing to El Diablo today. History
will vindicate me!
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4582 is a reply to message #4579] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam Tarr
Messages: 214
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 9:28 am, tebew...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm calling it right now.
>
> Sockeye loses to DW, beats Goat, Goat beats DW, they all end up 2-1,
> and Sockeye goes down on points.
>
> But then they come back up the hard way to win it all!
>
> Stephen
> Violently Happy

Fun prediction, but very unlikely. It's fairly tough to finish third
in a three-way tie with a 2-point loss.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4584 is a reply to message #4582] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tebewebb
Messages: 26
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 11:35 am, Adam Tarr <ahtarrNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Fun prediction, but very unlikely.  It's fairly tough to finish third
> in a three-way tie with a 2-point loss.

I know, that's why it so impressive of me! (ha!)

Actually, how do they break it if all the victories are 15-13?

Must be the spread w/ Diablo? So, Goat and DW by 5, and the Fish by
4!
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4585 is a reply to message #4584] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CBrowning
Messages: 190
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 10:46 am, tebew...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 30, 11:35 am, Adam Tarr <ahtarrNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Fun prediction, but very unlikely.  It's fairly tough to finish third
> > in a three-way tie with a 2-point loss.
>
> I know, that's why it so impressive of me! (ha!)
>
> Actually, how do they break it if all the victories are 15-13?
>
> Must be the spread w/ Diablo? So, Goat and DW by 5, and the Fish by
> 4!

Sockeye loses 12-15.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4588 is a reply to message #4585] Thu, 30 October 2008 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jason_j_knox
Messages: 14
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
uh, remember Pike beating Sockeye a few years back in the first round
causing just the scenario predicted. Wasn't that the year the sockeye
took out jam on universe point in the finals?
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4589 is a reply to message #4585] Thu, 30 October 2008 09:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dub dub
Messages: 28
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 10:52 am, CBrowning <cb.brown...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 10:46 am, tebew...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Oct 30, 11:35 am, Adam Tarr <ahtarrNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Fun prediction, but very unlikely.  It's fairly tough to finish third
> > > in a three-way tie with a 2-point loss.
>
> > I know, that's why it so impressive of me! (ha!)
>
> > Actually, how do they break it if all the victories are 15-13?
>
> > Must be the spread w/ Diablo? So, Goat and DW by 5, and the Fish by
> > 4!
>
> Sockeye loses 12-15.

Can anyone who saw the game give us a quick recap?
Did Sockeye look that sluggish/did DW just look strong and up to the
challenge?
keep those of us who were no there informed!

ww
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4593 is a reply to message #4589] Thu, 30 October 2008 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lemmonderf
Messages: 17
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
and Chewy beats Mischief 13-15,

Keep it up Texas!
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4595 is a reply to message #4589] Thu, 30 October 2008 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dsb
Messages: 40
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 9:10 am, dub dub <williambwoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 10:52 am, CBrowning <cb.brown...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 30, 10:46 am, tebew...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 30, 11:35 am, Adam Tarr <ahtarrNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Fun prediction, but very unlikely.  It's fairly tough to finish third
> > > > in a three-way tie with a 2-point loss.
>
> > > I know, that's why it so impressive of me! (ha!)
>
> > > Actually, how do they break it if all the victories are 15-13?
>
> > > Must be the spread w/ Diablo? So, Goat and DW by 5, and the Fish by
> > > 4!
>
> > Sockeye loses 12-15.
>
> Can anyone who saw the game give us a quick recap?
> Did Sockeye look that sluggish/did DW just look strong and up to the
> challenge?
> keep those of us who were no there informed!
>
> ww

Now that skip sewell is the new heel of ultimate frisbee, maybe he
throws the game only to pull off his sockeye jersey at the end of the
game to show a doublewide jersey, and he rejoins his college alums to
the uproar of the crowd.

Will Deaver better watch out or he's gonna find himself getting
clobbered by a folding chair while he's looking at the tournament
scores board or something.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4597 is a reply to message #4595] Thu, 30 October 2008 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
"Can anyone who saw the game give us a quick recap? Did Sockeye look
that sluggish/did DW just look strong and up to the challenge?"

Teams were equally matched, but Jaime Arambula AKA Idaho had 4
throwaways, two drops, and got torched deep for three easy goals.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4599 is a reply to message #4597] Thu, 30 October 2008 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jillestewart
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 10:46 am, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Can anyone who saw the game give us a quick recap? Did Sockeye look
> that sluggish/did DW just look strong and up to the challenge?"
>
> Teams were equally matched, but Jaime Arambula AKA Idaho had 4
> throwaways, two drops, and got torched deep for three easy goals.

i hope this is true - that guy is a dick!
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4602 is a reply to message #4599] Thu, 30 October 2008 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nathaniel.k.brown
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
GOAT just put a beating on DW 15-9. The only way that Sockeye misses
power pools now is if they go down to GOAT. If they do beat GOAT,
they'll be going through with a 1-0 record and it will be as if
nothing happened.

That being said, I wouldn't count GOAT out in this game. Should be a
good one.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4607 is a reply to message #4599] Thu, 30 October 2008 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mattrubes
Messages: 13
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
No, he isn't.
Were any of Idaho's TOs on lefty hammers?

rubes

On Oct 30, 11:01 am, jillestew...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 30, 10:46 am, jacob <jacobsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Can anyone who saw the game give us a quick recap? Did Sockeye look
> > that sluggish/did DW just look strong and up to the challenge?"
>
> > Teams were equally matched, but Jaime Arambula AKA Idaho had 4
> > throwaways, two drops, and got torched deep for three easy goals.
>
> i hope this is true - that guy is a dick!
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4608 is a reply to message #4602] Thu, 30 October 2008 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
Messages: 56
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 2:21 pm, nathaniel.k.br...@gmail.com wrote:
> GOAT just put a beating on DW 15-9. The only way that Sockeye misses
> power pools now is if they go down to GOAT.  If they do beat GOAT,
> they'll be going through with a 1-0 record and it will be as if
> nothing happened.

If they beat GOAT by a big margin (at least 15-5), then DW goes to the
power pools, and Sockeye has a loss to start tomorrow. Now, there's
too much parity to expect such a beating, but the incentives for
Sockeye are interesting here.

sam th
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4610 is a reply to message #4608] Thu, 30 October 2008 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nathaniel.k.brown
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 2:37 pm, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt <sam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2:21 pm, nathaniel.k.br...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > GOAT just put a beating on DW 15-9. The only way that Sockeye misses
> > power pools now is if they go down to GOAT.  If they do beat GOAT,
> > they'll be going through with a 1-0 record and it will be as if
> > nothing happened.
>
> If they beat GOAT by a big margin (at least 15-5), then DW goes to the
> power pools, and Sockeye has a loss to start tomorrow.  Now, there's
> too much parity to expect such a beating, but the incentives for
> Sockeye are interesting here.
>
> sam th

I am working on the assumption that Sockeye isn't going to beat GOAT
15-5. Especially considering GOAT just beat DW by a wide margin.
What would be really interesting would be if GOAT took down Sockeye
outright. With the way things have gone today, I wouldn't say that
scenario is too outlandish at all.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4613 is a reply to message #4608] Thu, 30 October 2008 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam Tarr
Messages: 214
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 12:37 pm, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt <sam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2:21 pm, nathaniel.k.br...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > GOAT just put a beating on DW 15-9. The only way that Sockeye misses
> > power pools now is if they go down to GOAT.  If they do beat GOAT,
> > they'll be going through with a 1-0 record and it will be as if
> > nothing happened.
>
> If they beat GOAT by a big margin (at least 15-5), then DW goes to the
> power pools, and Sockeye has a loss to start tomorrow.  Now, there's
> too much parity to expect such a beating, but the incentives for
> Sockeye are interesting here.

Interestingly, the EXACT same scores happened in pool A in the mixed
division, as well. Mischief needs to beat Barrio to erase the effects
of the morning loss to Chewbacca. If Barrio wins, then Mischief goes
down with a 1-2 record.

Subzero is in the same situation in the B pool, although it would
require an upset of Bravo for them to pull it off.

The AMP-MTF game in pool D of mixed is pretty similar as well,
although AMP has to be careful to let off the gas if they are up by
more than 5.

The UPA server appears to be fragged, so that's all the analysis I
have for the moment.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4623 is a reply to message #4613] Thu, 30 October 2008 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
Messages: 56
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 2:56 pm, Adam Tarr <ahtarrNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 12:37 pm, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt <sam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[snip]

In other interesting format developments, the optimal play for Puppet
Regime in their last round game against Bucket is probably to put 2
people on the line and drop all the pulls. Nothing they can do can
prevent them from going to power pools with a win, and Bucket from
going to the lower pools with a loss. Interestingly, it's probably
also the optimal play for Bucket.

sam th
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4628 is a reply to message #4623] Thu, 30 October 2008 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
s_s_wang
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 3:14 pm, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt <sam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2:56 pm, Adam Tarr <ahtarrNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Oct 30, 12:37 pm, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt <sam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> In other interesting format developments, the optimal play for Puppet
> Regime in their last round game against Bucket is probably to put 2
> people on the line and drop all the pulls.  Nothing they can do can
> prevent them from going to power pools with a win, and Bucket from
> going to the lower pools with a loss.  Interestingly, it's probably
> also the optimal play for Bucket.
>
> sam th

What are possible ways to avoid irrelevant games like this? I've seen
one suggestion, where the second round of pool play is winner of game
1 vs. loser of game 2; winner of game 2 vs loser of game 1, thus
guaranteeing no 2-0 team faces an 0-2 team in the last round. If you
wanted to avoid dynamic scheduling, though, how about saying that in
the case of a 3-way tie in the day 2 pools, overall record in the
tourney to date is considered before the point differential?
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4630 is a reply to message #4628] Thu, 30 October 2008 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ilikedisc
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
So, correct me if i am wrong, but if sockeye beats goat, even though
they dont "win" the pool, they will be 1-0 in the power pool because
of their win over goat, yes?
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4632 is a reply to message #4630] Thu, 30 October 2008 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark -Mortakai- Moran
Messages: 152
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 1:13 pm, iliked...@gmail.com wrote:
> So, correct me if i am wrong, but if sockeye beats goat, even though
> they dont "win" the pool, they will be 1-0 in the power pool because
> of their win over goat, yes?

YOu're right.

By my calc's, before the last round is played, it's:
Sockeye -3
Goat +6
DW -3

So any plus to Sockeye will put them ahead of DW and in the power pool.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4633 is a reply to message #4630] Thu, 30 October 2008 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CBrowning
Messages: 190
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 3:13 pm, iliked...@gmail.com wrote:
> So, correct me if i am wrong, but if sockeye beats goat, even though
> they dont "win" the pool, they will be 1-0 in the power pool because
> of their win over goat, yes?

Yes. That is correct.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4639 is a reply to message #4607] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahil.suleman
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Sockeye wins 15-13 (I heard there were some dubious calls by Sockeye
from someone watching)

Pool finishes GOAT, Sockeye, DoubleWide, El Diablo, but Sockeye take
the 1-0 record into tomorrow.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4642 is a reply to message #4639] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
homrbush
Messages: 429
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 5:14 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sockeye wins 15-13 (I heard there were some dubious calls by Sockeye
> from someone watching)
>
> Pool finishes GOAT, Sockeye, DoubleWide, El Diablo, but Sockeye take
> the 1-0 record into tomorrow.

What? The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
tomorrow, and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
with an 0-1 start tomorrow? What is the logic in that. How does
Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4645 is a reply to message #4642] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T1000
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2008
Member
> What?  The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> tomorrow, and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> with an 0-1 start tomorrow?  What is the logic in that.  How does
> Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?

Interesting artifact of the format, you could say.

GOAT wins the three-way tie against Sockeye on a point differential.
And unfortunately, despite their early performance, Doublewide comes
up short.

And because Sockeye beats the team now technically ranked A1 (or E1),
they snap up the 1-0 lead even though they lose their seed.

It seems Sockeye managed to play exactly as well as it needed to, and
not a hair's breadth worse.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4646 is a reply to message #4642] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahil.suleman
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 5:32 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
> On Oct 30, 5:14 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sockeye wins 15-13 (I heard there were some dubious calls by Sockeye
> > from someone watching)
>
> > Pool finishes GOAT, Sockeye, DoubleWide, El Diablo, but Sockeye take
> > the 1-0 record into tomorrow.
>
> What? The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> tomorrow, and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> with an 0-1 start tomorrow? What is the logic in that. How does
> Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?

The way the power pools are set up, you take the result from the game
on Thursday with you against the team that joins you in the power
pool. (So since GOAT and Sockeye go into the power pool, it takes the
result of the Sockeye/GOAT game into consideration).
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4647 is a reply to message #4642] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
weston
Messages: 45
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 2:32 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
> On Oct 30, 5:14 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sockeye wins 15-13 (I heard there were some dubious calls by Sockeye
> > from someone watching)
>
> > Pool finishes GOAT, Sockeye, DoubleWide, El Diablo, but Sockeye take
> > the 1-0 record into tomorrow.
>
> What? The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> tomorrow, and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> with an 0-1 start tomorrow? What is the logic in that. How does
> Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?

yeah, and delaware beat florida and didn't even make quarters in
college nats 06...?
teams get rewarded for winning the last game of the day in this format
moreso than
other games.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4648 is a reply to message #4646] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
homrbush
Messages: 429
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 5:41 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 5:32 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
>
> > On Oct 30, 5:14 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Sockeye wins 15-13 (I heard there were some dubious calls by Sockeye
> > > from someone watching)
>
> > > Pool finishes GOAT, Sockeye, DoubleWide, El Diablo, but Sockeye take
> > > the 1-0 record into tomorrow.
>
> > What?  The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> > tomorrow, and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> > with an 0-1 start tomorrow?  What is the logic in that.  How does
> > Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?
>
> The way the power pools are set up, you take the result from the game
> on Thursday with you against the team that joins you in the power
> pool. (So since GOAT and Sockeye go into the power pool, it takes the
> result of the Sockeye/GOAT game into consideration).

Thank you for explaining the logic, although I think it is extremely
flawed. So if I understand correctly, GOAT will get an "easier"
schedule tomorrow than they would have if they finished 2nd in their
pool, but they will start out 0-1? So they have to beat either
Ironside or JAM to advance without the play-in game? Tough road, but
should make for great viewing.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4649 is a reply to message #4647] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CBrowning
Messages: 190
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 4:41 pm, weston <Weston.J.Mil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2:32 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
>
> > On Oct 30, 5:14 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Sockeye wins 15-13 (I heard there were some dubious calls by Sockeye
> > > from someone watching)
>
> > > Pool finishes GOAT, Sockeye, DoubleWide, El Diablo, but Sockeye take
> > > the 1-0 record into tomorrow.
>
> > What?  The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> > tomorrow, and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> > with an 0-1 start tomorrow?  What is the logic in that.  How does
> > Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?
>
> yeah, and delaware beat florida and didn't even make quarters in
> college nats 06...?
> teams get rewarded for winning the last game of the day in this format
> moreso than
> other games.

Isn't the tie-breaker actually points in this situation? When a team
played another team in their pool is not a factor at all. No matter
which of the two teams went into the power pool, the one left out
would be able to say of one of the two other teams "We beat them."
GOAT had the best pts for/points against with +9. Sockeye had the
second best at +6. Doublewide was +1.

I think the idea of the Sockeye getting a +1 for their win over GOAT
is to give some idea of how teams did over better competition. I
agree that it is odd that the team that came in second in the pool
goes into the power pool with a better record. However, if you do not
give the advantage based on their head to head game, you would have to
give it based on point differential. I think it would be pretty lame
for it to come down to who beat other teams worse. A win is a win.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4650 is a reply to message #4648] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahil.suleman
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 30, 5:48 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
> On Oct 30, 5:41 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 5:32 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 30, 5:14 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Sockeye wins 15-13 (I heard there were some dubious calls by Sockeye
> > > > from someone watching)
>
> > > > Pool finishes GOAT, Sockeye, DoubleWide, El Diablo, but Sockeye take
> > > > the 1-0 record into tomorrow.
>
> > > What? The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> > > tomorrow, and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> > > with an 0-1 start tomorrow? What is the logic in that. How does
> > > Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?
>
> > The way the power pools are set up, you take the result from the game
> > on Thursday with you against the team that joins you in the power
> > pool. (So since GOAT and Sockeye go into the power pool, it takes the
> > result of the Sockeye/GOAT game into consideration).
>
> Thank you for explaining the logic, although I think it is extremely
> flawed. So if I understand correctly, GOAT will get an "easier"
> schedule tomorrow than they would have if they finished 2nd in their
> pool, but they will start out 0-1? So they have to beat either
> Ironside or JAM to advance without the play-in game? Tough road, but
> should make for great viewing.

Yup.

I don't like it either. However to be fair it has been used in many
sporting events including Cricket (for the world cup) in the past.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4651 is a reply to message #4648] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nathaniel.k.brown
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
For better or for worse, the system is set up on the assumption that
the winner from each pool will be 1-0 against the second place team
when they are re-shuffled into the Power Pool setup. I am a big fan
of the nationals format, but this one very particular situation isn't
much fun for any of the teams not named Sockeye.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4652 is a reply to message #4648] Thu, 30 October 2008 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T1000
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2008
Member
>So if I understand correctly, GOAT will get an "easier"
> schedule tomorrow than they would have if they finished 2nd in their
> pool, but they will start out 0-1?  

Um, actually I don't see GOAT's path being any easier than Sockeye's.
They both have to play E2 and E3 tomorrow.

I think the format really assumed that A1 would come out 1-0 over A2.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4655 is a reply to message #4649] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BMaster
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 4:53 pm, CBrowning <cb.brown...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Isn't the tie-breaker actually points in this situation?  When a team
> played another team in their pool is not a factor at all.  No matter
> which of the two teams went into the power pool, the one left out
> would be able to say of one of the two other teams "We beat them."
> GOAT had the best pts for/points against with +9.  Sockeye had the
> second best at +6.  Doublewide was +1.

I'm pretty sure it goes to Point differential among the three teams
(which must add to zero)
Goat: +4
Sockeye: -1
Doublewide: -3 (The six point loss to goat killed them)

If these anyone is still even at this point, then it goes to other
common opponents.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4656 is a reply to message #4642] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jywhitt
Messages: 47
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 4:32 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
> What? The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> tomorrow,

No, the team with the worst point differential among the three teams
gets relegated. You don't get extra credit for beating the defending
champs or the #1 seed.

> and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> with an 0-1 start tomorrow?

No, the team that lost to the team that is joining them in the power
pool gets saddled with an 0-1 start. Would it make more sense if
Sockeye started 0-1 and Goat started 1-0, even though Sockeye beat
Goat?

> What is the logic in that. How does
> Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?

Sockeye, Goat, and DW all finished with a 2-1 record, each going 1-1
against each other. Among the three, DW had the worst point
differential. How is that only Sockeye did very little?
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4657 is a reply to message #4647] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jywhitt
Messages: 47
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 4:41 pm, weston <Weston.J.Mil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> yeah, and delaware beat florida and didn't even make quarters in
> college nats 06...?
> teams get rewarded for winning the last game of the day in this format
> moreso than
> other games.

No, only the scores of the games matter; it doesn't matter what order
they came in.

Or, in other words,

(-3) + 2 = 2 + (-3) = -1

and

3 + (-6) = (-6) + 3 = -3
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4659 is a reply to message #4647] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T1000
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2008
Member
> teams get rewarded for winning the last game of the day in this format
> moreso than
> other games.

Well, that's only because the last scheduled game of the day is
between contenders who (by their seeding) are likely to join each
other in the next day's pool. But all the games are important; you
don't know ahead of time who is getting streamlined into the same pool
as you. You definitely want to have beaten the team who joins you in
the next pool.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4660 is a reply to message #4652] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jywhitt
Messages: 47
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 30, 4:56 pm, T1000 <atanarj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >So if I understand correctly, GOAT will get an "easier"
> > schedule tomorrow than they would have if they finished 2nd in their
> > pool, but they will start out 0-1?
>
> Um, actually I don't see GOAT's path being any easier than Sockeye's.
> They both have to play E2 and E3 tomorrow.
>
> I think the format really assumed that A1 would come out 1-0 over A2.

I doubt that was the assumption. The logic is that Goat gets called
A1 because they preformed the best among the four teams playing in
pool A, and Sockeye gets called A2 because they preformed second best
among the four teams playing in pool A. All the games among teams in
pool A decide who is A1 and A2. The format calls for A1 and A2 to
join a new pool, pool E. The next decision is to decide how much
information from pool A to carry over to pool E. Should you use all
the results from pool A (and pool C for that matter), including
results involving teams that did not move up to pool E, to seed the
teams in pool E; or should you just use the results between the two
teams that moved up to pool E? The format chose the latter.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4662 is a reply to message #4660] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T1000
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2008
Member
> I doubt that was the assumption.  The logic is that Goat gets called
> A1 because they preformed the best among the four teams playing in
> pool A, and Sockeye gets called A2 because they preformed second best
> among the four teams playing in pool A.  All the games among teams in
> pool A decide who is A1 and A2.  The format calls for A1 and A2 to
> join a new pool, pool E.  The next decision is to decide how much
> information from pool A to carry over to pool E.  Should you use all
> the results from pool A (and pool C for that matter), including
> results involving teams that did not move up to pool E, to seed the
> teams in pool E; or should you just use the results between the two
> teams that moved up to pool E?  The format chose the latter.

What I meant was that it looks as if the format assumed E1 would be
1-0 over E4 (they are, after all, "seeded" highest in the E-pool).
Said another wat, the format is presented in a way that expects the
winner of the A-pool to have beaten second-place in the A-pool. Not
that it really matters-- E1 and E4 have to play the same teams either
way.

I'm not suggesting the format is flawed.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4663 is a reply to message #4649] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
homrbush
Messages: 429
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 5:53 pm, CBrowning <cb.brown...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, if you do not
> give the advantage based on their head to head game, you would have to
> give it based on point differential.  I think it would be pretty lame
> for it to come down to who beat other teams worse.  A win is a win.- Hide quoted text -

Wouldn't it make sense though to reward a team based on their
performance throughout the entire day, rather than on just 1 matchup?
Doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of pool play that way?

Although jywhitt points out solid reasoning of using pool play results
to determine who advances to the power pool, but then using the
results of the teams that advanced to the power pools to determine who
starts out 1-0.

I'd still rather see a team rewarded for their performance throughout
the entire day, and not possibly weight it so much on 1 matchup.
Re: Sockeye misses power pool? [message #4664 is a reply to message #4656] Thu, 30 October 2008 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Jed
Messages: 175
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 6:01 pm, "jywh...@gmail.com" <jywh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 4:32 pm, homrb...@homerbush.net wrote:
>
> > What?  The team that beats Sockeye gets relegated to the lower pool
> > tomorrow,
>
> No, the team with the worst point differential among the three teams
> gets relegated.  You don't get extra credit for beating the defending
> champs or the #1 seed.
>
> > and the team that won the pool Sockeye is in gets saddled
> > with an 0-1 start tomorrow?
>
> No, the team that lost to the team that is joining them in the power
> pool gets saddled with an 0-1 start.  Would it make more sense if
> Sockeye started 0-1 and Goat started 1-0, even though Sockeye beat
> Goat?
>
> > What is the logic in that.  How does
> > Sockeye get rewarded for doing very little?
>
> Sockeye, Goat, and DW all finished with a 2-1 record, each going 1-1
> against each other.  Among the three, DW had the worst point
> differential.  How is that only Sockeye did very little?

But it does seem strange that Goat would have been better off only
beating Doublewide by 1 or 2 points, than by 6 points as they did.

I know there are lots of formats that can give a team a chance to
'strategically' let an opponent score more (or even win) to get a
desired match-up (or to rest, e.g. for a back-door game); but is there
any other that literally punishes a team for doing better?

Not the first time it's happened, nor will it be the last; but it does
seem odd.
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