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Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 11:22 Go to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
I've always wondered why club happens in the fall. Is there any
particular reason why?

What if the club series season started in April and concluded it's
National Championship Series in Boulder on the 4th of July or
somewhere thereabout. The weather is typically pretty good in Boulder
in July. Boulder is the headquarters to the UPA and the sports world
is in the doldrums of summer with only Baseball happening. Also the
bulk of Club players are out of college it might be easier to get time
off from work in the summer and make a vacation out of it.

So this would move the college series to the fall. Which kind of makes
sense, since the college kids are returning to the new semester and
can play for the national title in Sarasota at the end of Halloween.

Any thoughts, or am I way off base?
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4393 is a reply to message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grant
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 28, 2:22 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> I've always wondered why club happens in the fall.  Is there any
> particular reason why?
>
> What if the club series season started in April and concluded it's
> National Championship Series in Boulder on the 4th of July or
> somewhere thereabout.  The weather is typically pretty good in Boulder
> in July.  Boulder is the headquarters to the UPA and the sports world
> is in the doldrums of summer with only Baseball happening.  Also the
> bulk of Club players are out of college it might be easier to get time
> off from work in the summer and make a vacation out of it.
>
> So this would move the college series to the fall. Which kind of makes
> sense, since the college kids are returning to the new semester and
> can play for the national title in Sarasota at the end of Halloween.
>
> Any thoughts, or am I way off base?

Because with school starting up in the fall, you are essentially
limiting college rosters to only returners in the championships.
There isn't enough time to evaluate rookies and bring them up to speed
in only 1 month. Schools on the quarter system would be hamstrung
even more because the series would start before classes started.

In conclusion, way off base.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4396 is a reply to message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Torre
Messages: 226
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 28, 2:22 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> I've always wondered why club happens in the fall.  Is there any
> particular reason why?
>
> What if the club series season started in April and concluded it's
> National Championship Series in Boulder on the 4th of July or
> somewhere thereabout.  The weather is typically pretty good in Boulder
> in July.  Boulder is the headquarters to the UPA and the sports world
> is in the doldrums of summer with only Baseball happening.  Also the
> bulk of Club players are out of college it might be easier to get time
> off from work in the summer and make a vacation out of it.
>
> So this would move the college series to the fall. Which kind of makes
> sense, since the college kids are returning to the new semester and
> can play for the national title in Sarasota at the end of Halloween.
>
> Any thoughts, or am I way off base?

College teams playing in the fall can "gear up" for the series in the
spring. If you move the series to the fall what does the spring do ?

I think you'd see an overall drop in quality of the college series if
you moved it to the fall.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4397 is a reply to message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JephB
Messages: 108
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
It would be pretty hard for college kids to compete in the series in
the fall. Several reasons contribute to this, but i think easily the
biggest would be the involvement of freshman. There would just be no
way to teach any of those kids how to play ultimate well enough to get
onto the field between August and October. Without playing time,
interest would wain and rookies would drop out of the programs. The
series in the spring allows for fall warm up events that encourage
rookies to get out there and get comfortable and allows veterans time
to make A/B team cuts.

-JB
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4399 is a reply to message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
> So this would move the college series to the fall. Which kind of makes
> sense, since the college kids are returning to the new semester and
> can play for the national title in Sarasota at the end of Halloween.

Don't think it would make sense for the college series to be moved to
the fall at all, cause it would give teams only ~2 months to prepare.
There would be practically no time for tryouts, let alone building
team cohesion/chemistry etc.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4402 is a reply to message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alan Hoyle
Messages: 51
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:22:01, Wagenwheel wrote:
> I've always wondered why club happens in the fall. Is there any
> particular reason why?

[...snip...]

> Any thoughts, or am I way off base?

If you look towards other college sports as a model, it seems most
team sports have their practice season starting about 8 months before
their respective championships. Football, with a championship in
early January, has practices beginning in April, and a number of HS
athletes graduate early to be with their prospective teams for their
spring schedule. Soccer, with an early December championship, also
has a number of athletes graduate early for spring practices.
Basketball, with a championship in early April, start their
conditioning practices in August.

With an 8 month practice season and a championship ending in October,
the expectation would be to have practices starting in February.

With the resources available to today's college teams, freshmen
wouldn't be able to contribute nearly as effectively, resulting in a
typical 4 year student really only having 3 seasons to contribute to
the team. I agree with other's opinions that moving the college
series to the fall would result in an overall lowering of play in the
college division, and could even result in an increased bias against
expensive schools.

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - alanh@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4408 is a reply to message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
degnanNOSPAM
Messages: 97
Registered: October 2008
Member
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.disc/msg/36b1202206 71dad9
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4410 is a reply to message #4402] Tue, 28 October 2008 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T1000
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2008
Member
Granted, it only affects a rather small contingent of the membership,
but the Canadian college series runs in the autumn, and the Canadian
club series runs in the summer. It is rather convenient for the
Canadian membership that these seasons are staggered.

That said, if the UPA did shuffle their seasons, I imagine that CUPA
would subsequently re-shuffle on their end, after due controversy and
fuss.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4412 is a reply to message #4402] Tue, 28 October 2008 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
There is another critical (deal killer I would say) reason for having
Club Nationals in mid-Fall. And this reason didn't exist when the Fall
date was set decades ago.

There is only one venue in the entire US that can hold the current
Club Nationals... Sarasota, FL. Only the polo grounds there are large
enough and are willing to rent them to the UPA. The weather in
Sarasota would be too hot in the Summer, and it's probably too cold to
be optimum in the Winter.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4414 is a reply to message #4410] Tue, 28 October 2008 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 28, 6:27 pm, T1000 <atanarj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Granted, it only affects a rather small contingent of the membership,
> but the Canadian college series runs in the autumn, and the Canadian
> club series runs in the summer.  It is rather convenient for the
> Canadian membership that these seasons are staggered.
>
> That said, if the UPA did shuffle their seasons, I imagine that CUPA
> would subsequently re-shuffle on their end, after due controversy and
> fuss.

Yea Canada! Point taken on matriculation of new players in college
series. Good points all...maybe we should just suspend the season in
the middle...say right after Saturday of Regionals...Freaking Bud
Selig. In the words of the Ron Bennington of the Ron and Fez Show
(noon to three on xm 202, sirius 197), "Bud Selig is the worst man in
history, if I had one bullet I'd save it for Selig and tell Hitler and
Stalin to scram".
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4416 is a reply to message #4412] Tue, 28 October 2008 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DK21
Messages: 59
Registered: September 2008
Member
From a northern perspective, holding the club series in June/July
would either a) make for a 1-3 month club season, or b) require club
teams to spend a bunch of money to play in fieldhouses for the first 3
months of the season. (Yes, college teams up north do currently have
to practice in fieldhouses, but they often have free or cheap access
through their schools, though admittedly not always and not always at
optimal times.) As a northern club player, I thus am a big fan of the
current UPA series calendar.

As for venue for club nationals . . . 60 teams just requires 30
fields, right? There is at least one, probably 3 or more sites just
in the central region which have that many fields and frequently host
Ultimate tournaments:

-Naperville (IL) Polo Fields (site of Heavyweights) had 38 lined
fields at the 2008 tournament. http://www.chicagoheavyweights.org/program.php.
-Cooler Classic, held at the Delafield (WI) Polo Grounds, had 64 teams
last year (though I'm not sure how many fields).
http://www.milwaukeeultimate.com/classic/info.aspx.
-The Minnesota Ultimate Disc Invite, held in Maple Plain, has a field
map with 28 fields, but I'm guessing could accomodate 2 more.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~willi133/mudifields.html.

(Are any of those complexes as nice as Sarasota? No. Is the weather
nice there in late October? No. Am I recommending we have nationals
at any of these sites? Not on the current calendar.)

Maybe the central region is just weirdly full of large polo complexes
- but assuming that isn't the whole story, am I missing something?
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4422 is a reply to message #4379] Tue, 28 October 2008 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin
Messages: 28
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
It is interesting to me that the College and Club Series are held at
different times. In some people's push for advancement and refs, I
would think the argument that no other sport has alternate seasons
would play a part. Both NCAA Football and NFL go on now, Baseball and
Basketball, both college and pro play during the same seasons.

Yes, doing this would dilute the Club series teams, but only for the
first year or 2. After that, the graduates would move to club and it
would become a more "Pro" feel for the series.

Just a thought.

Kevin

On Oct 28, 2:22 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> I've always wondered why club happens in the fall.  Is there any
> particular reason why?
>
> What if the club series season started in April and concluded it's
> National Championship Series in Boulder on the 4th of July or
> somewhere thereabout.  The weather is typically pretty good in Boulder
> in July.  Boulder is the headquarters to the UPA and the sports world
> is in the doldrums of summer with only Baseball happening.  Also the
> bulk of Club players are out of college it might be easier to get time
> off from work in the summer and make a vacation out of it.
>
> So this would move the college series to the fall. Which kind of makes
> sense, since the college kids are returning to the new semester and
> can play for the national title in Sarasota at the end of Halloween.
>
> Any thoughts, or am I way off base?
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4504 is a reply to message #4410] Wed, 29 October 2008 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gking2
Messages: 9
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 28, 6:27 pm, T1000 <atanarj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Granted, it only affects a rather small contingent of the membership,
> but the Canadian college series runs in the autumn, and the Canadian
> club series runs in the summer.  It is rather convenient for the
> Canadian membership that these seasons are staggered.
>
> That said, if the UPA did shuffle their seasons, I imagine that CUPA
> would subsequently re-shuffle on their end, after due controversy and
> fuss.

I'm glad this was raised, because the current Canadian system is
exactly what would happen if you moved college to the fall and it is
terrible (although all we have and unable to change to geography).
There is not nearly enough time to involve new players in teams and as
someone noted above, it turns into a team full of returners limiting
your university playing time to 3 years instead of 4 unless you had
significant experience prior to starting college. As it stands we
start school at the beginning of September, practice for 2-3 weeks,
play a regional tournament (if you live in Ontario or Quebec) whose
outcome doesn't impact any qualifications for Nationals, have a week
or maybe two off and then play a 3 day Nationals tournament. Season
finished. So that puts us to about mid-October. We could move it back
a couple of weeks, but the weather can get dicey (we just had 15 cm of
snow last night in Ottawa and I know Regina had a snowstorm in early
October).

Of course, Canadian geography prevents us from having it at any other
time of year. In the spring there is often too much snow on the ground
or the snow has just melted and there are no fields available to have
a tournament. So we're stuck with what we have in terms of timing. I
think the current timing of the UPA college is great and you certainly
don't want to mimic what we have (although the weather is less of an
issue).
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4529 is a reply to message #4504] Wed, 29 October 2008 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T1000
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 29, 11:14 am, gking2 <gregkin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm glad this was raised, because the current Canadian system is
> exactly what would happen if you moved college to the fall and it is
> terrible (although all we have and unable to change to geography).

The ultra-short season autumn season definitely hurts Canadian
university ultimate. This year's championship had a ridiculously low
turnout of contenders. Lack of team organization and lack of time,
combined with a broad lack of competition all hurt the autumn season.
The good teams just consider the CUPA series to be a warm-up toward
the UPA series, and it's hard to blame them.

To be fair, though, it's not just that the season is in the autumn
that causes CUPA this problem. We could take it upon ourselves to
rise to the challenge. There are, after all, plenty of successful
autumn competitive autumn sports with similarly short seasons. The
CIS and OUA soccer seasons face very similar challenges, but they're
far better organized (and better funded, of course).

First, CUPA needs to extend the championship season as much as it can
(the championship itself can be held in a late-snowing location).
Then, CUPA needs to encourage/develop intra-regional competition. For
many schools, there aren't any tournaments before the championship at
all. Then, the players need to take it upon themselves to take their
own sport more seriously-- training camps and a commitment to host/
participate in regional competition.

Who wants to fly to Edmonton five weeks after school starts without
any real competition under the belt, and hardly any to be found? Yeah,
an autumn season is bad timing, but we could still manage it much
better than we do.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4552 is a reply to message #4379] Wed, 29 October 2008 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob.jb.greenberg
Messages: 53
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 28, 11:22 am, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> I've always wondered why club happens in the fall. Is there any
> particular reason why?
>
> What if the club series season started in April and concluded it's
> National Championship Series in Boulder on the 4th of July or
> somewhere thereabout. The weather is typically pretty good in Boulder
> in July. Boulder is the headquarters to the UPA and the sports world
> is in the doldrums of summer with only Baseball happening. Also the
> bulk of Club players are out of college it might be easier to get time
> off from work in the summer and make a vacation out of it.
>
> So this would move the college series to the fall. Which kind of makes
> sense, since the college kids are returning to the new semester and
> can play for the national title in Sarasota at the end of Halloween.
>
> Any thoughts, or am I way off base?

i'm with this wagenwheel fellow. i've always thought the club season
should start in earnest in april, and end sometime in mid august.

i'm not too far removed from college disc, and am a regular player on
non-nationals caliber club teams. here's the thing: college players on
club teams are going to miss some practices. college disc always takes
priority, and there's little club teams can do about it.

on all the club teams i've been on, the season has looked like this:
open practices in may, cuts by first or second week of june after a
tryout tournament or two. practices are great in june and july, with
lots of numbers. august hits, and people go on vacation/take a few
weeks off from playing ultimate. numbers at practice dwindle, as does
the overall quality of practice. by the time these people come back
from their (necessary) breaks during the second or third week of
august, college kids head back to class. practice numbers stay small,
but those who have been coming to practice with 7-8 guys for the last
month or so are about ready to throw in the towel. and, the guys who
have been a major part of your team strategy and chemistry are removed
from the practice setting, and valuable progress has certainly been
lost. i was frequently that guy who was absent at the end of the
season due to school, college team practices, etc.

so, in club, by the time you're heading into sectionals, team
commitment and morale is at a season-low, where assumedly it should be
at a season-high. this is a complete reversal from college, where most
teams--from those with nationals aspirations to those who are just
trying to get out of their section--are at their most prepared. this
probably doesn't happen with nationals teams, but for the rest of us,
this can lead to an unpleasant end to a generally enjoyable season.

knowing that college players are going to miss chunks of the club
season either way, why not get it out of the way early? if open
practices started in april, with the first bona fide tournament in
may, you'd have most of your younger players (excepting those who are
on elite college teams) mostly done with their seasons, and able to
attend at least some open practices/tryouts, while still giving
priority to their college teams. given that most players won't have
tournaments in may (again, except nationals), you've assumedly got a
full roster to start your season. then, by the time class ends in late
may or early june, you've got your roster set, and another 2 and a
half months of sweet disc, and, most perhaps more importantly, quality
practices with healthy numbers.

that way, college players get some continuous disc from the start of
their college season until the end of summer, and even some real time
off before having to lace up the cleats for their college teams again.
vets can count on full rosters, good practices, and more complete and
successful tournament experiences.

vote seth grossinger for upa board.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4553 is a reply to message #4379] Wed, 29 October 2008 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob.jb.greenberg
Messages: 53
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 28, 11:22 am, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> I've always wondered why club happens in the fall. Is there any
> particular reason why?
>
> What if the club series season started in April and concluded it's
> National Championship Series in Boulder on the 4th of July or
> somewhere thereabout. The weather is typically pretty good in Boulder
> in July. Boulder is the headquarters to the UPA and the sports world
> is in the doldrums of summer with only Baseball happening. Also the
> bulk of Club players are out of college it might be easier to get time
> off from work in the summer and make a vacation out of it.
>
> So this would move the college series to the fall. Which kind of makes
> sense, since the college kids are returning to the new semester and
> can play for the national title in Sarasota at the end of Halloween.
>
> Any thoughts, or am I way off base?

i'm with this wagenwheel fellow. i've always thought the club season
should start in earnest in april, and end sometime in mid august.

i'm not too far removed from college disc, and am a regular player on
non-nationals caliber club teams. here's the thing: college players on
club teams are going to miss some practices. college disc always takes
priority, and there's little club teams can do about it.

on all the club teams i've been on, the season has looked like this:
open practices in may, cuts by first or second week of june after a
tryout tournament or two. practices are great in june and july, with
lots of numbers. august hits, and people go on vacation/take a few
weeks off from playing ultimate. numbers at practice dwindle, as does
the overall quality of practice. by the time these people come back
from their (necessary) breaks during the second or third week of
august, college kids head back to class. practice numbers stay small,
but those who have been coming to practice with 7-8 guys for the last
month or so are about ready to throw in the towel. and, the guys who
have been a major part of your team strategy and chemistry are removed
from the practice setting, and valuable progress has certainly been
lost. i was frequently that guy who was absent at the end of the
season due to school, college team practices, etc.

so, in club, by the time you're heading into sectionals, team
commitment and morale is at a season-low, where assumedly it should be
at a season-high. this is a complete reversal from college, where most
teams--from those with nationals aspirations to those who are just
trying to get out of their section--are at their most prepared. this
probably doesn't happen with nationals teams, but for the rest of us,
this can lead to an unpleasant end to a generally enjoyable season.

knowing that college players are going to miss chunks of the club
season either way, why not get it out of the way early? if open
practices started in april, with the first bona fide tournament in
may, you'd have most of your younger players (excepting those who are
on elite college teams) mostly done with their seasons, and able to
attend at least some open practices/tryouts, while still giving
priority to their college teams. given that most players won't have
tournaments in may (again, except nationals), you've assumedly got a
full roster to start your season. then, by the time class ends in late
may or early june, you've got your roster set, and another 2 and a
half months of sweet disc, and, most perhaps more importantly, quality
practices with healthy numbers.

that way, college players get some continuous disc from the start of
their college season until the end of summer, and even some real time
off before having to lace up the cleats for their college teams again.
vets can count on full rosters, good practices, and more complete and
successful tournament experiences.

vote seth grossinger for upa board.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4563 is a reply to message #4412] Thu, 30 October 2008 04:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
matty j
Messages: 250
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
> There is another critical (deal killer I would say) reason for having
> Club Nationals in mid-Fall. And this reason didn't exist when the Fall
> date was set decades ago.
>
> There is only one venue in the entire US that can hold the current
> Club Nationals... Sarasota, FL. Only the polo grounds there are large
> enough and are willing to rent them to the UPA. The weather in
> Sarasota would be too hot in the Summer, and it's probably too cold to
> be optimum in the Winter.
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4564 is a reply to message #4412] Thu, 30 October 2008 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
matty j
Messages: 250
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
> There is another critical (deal killer I would say) reason for having
> Club Nationals in mid-Fall. And this reason didn't exist when the Fall
> date was set decades ago.
>
> There is only one venue in the entire US that can hold the current
> Club Nationals... Sarasota, FL. Only the polo grounds there are large
> enough and are willing to rent them to the UPA. The weather in
> Sarasota would be too hot in the Summer, and it's probably too cold to
> be optimum in the Winter.

joe

this is an old tired UPA argument that simply is not true, and never
has been.
the future growth of the sport may depend on moving the championships
to other location(s) and even potentially not insisting on having all
division championships at the same time at the same place. let's not
box ourselves into a corner by insisting that Sarasota is our only
option and ending the dialogue.
in planning the club championships we must also stop limiting our
options just so that college players can also play club. it's a
consideration but should not be the driving factor in the decision of
where/when club championships are held.
I love Sarasota too but the earth won't split open and swallow us up
if we decide that the open and/or women's or mixed or Masters or
GrandMasters championships or even the whole thing should be held in a
major metropolitan area during a nice warm summer month. sponsors,
media and fans might actually attend the event.

MJ

MJ
Re: Why Club Series should move to different season... [message #4569 is a reply to message #4564] Thu, 30 October 2008 06:32 Go to previous message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 30, 7:47 am, matty j <maplerowf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 28, 7:17 pm, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
>
> > There is another critical (deal killer I would say) reason for having
> > Club Nationals in mid-Fall. And this reason didn't exist when the Fall
> > date was set decades ago.
>
> > There is only one venue in the entire US that can hold the current
> > Club Nationals... Sarasota, FL. Only the polo grounds there are large
> > enough and are willing to rent them to the UPA. The weather in
> > Sarasota would be too hot in the Summer, and it's probably too cold to
> > be optimum in the Winter.
>
> joe
>
> this is an old tired UPA argument that simply is not true, and never
> has been.
> the future growth of the sport may depend on moving the championships
> to other location(s) and even potentially not insisting on having all
> division championships at the same time at the same place. let's not
> box ourselves into a corner by insisting that Sarasota is our only
> option and ending the dialogue.
> in planning the club championships we must also stop limiting our
> options just so that college players can also play club. it's a
> consideration but should not be the driving factor in the decision of
> where/when club championships are held.
> I love Sarasota too but the earth won't split open and swallow us up
> if we decide that the open and/or women's or mixed or Masters or
> GrandMasters championships or even the whole thing should be held in a
> major metropolitan area during a nice warm summer month. sponsors,
> media and fans might actually attend the event.
>
> MJ
>
> MJ

I agree with MJ that trying to have everything happen at once at the
same location is not necessarily the best for the sport or its
players, however convenient it may be for the administrators of the
game.

I have no remedy (yet), but from my undrstanding has not the the wind
been a consistent and unrelenting force in Sarasota and thus a major
factor in play? Does the Sarasota environment and wind really allow
for the players and teams to showcase their play in 20 MPH winds which
to my understanding has been pretty consistent in years past. Yes, I
know we have no control over the weather, but we can control location
and my experience from living in a coastal environment for the past 20
years is that it is pretty darn windy, a lot of the time.

Lately, I've been trying to address topics that could improve the game
for its players and future fans without bringing up the "R" word.
I've also tried to shift my contributions to this forum to more non-
partisan approach, thus enabling good comments and input from readers
who sometimes rarely post, but now feel compelled to.

Keeping the dream alive...

EW
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