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Central Regionals observers [message #40586] Mon, 12 October 2009 08:57 Go to next message
Jeff Kula
Messages: 5
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
I was extremely happy with the work done by the observers at Central
Regionals. 3 of our Open division games were observed, and all of
them were among the best I've experienced. Great knowledge, quick
decisions, and allowance for the players sort it out themselves ...
staying in the background until called upon. Very few "do overs",
which is no small feat given the weather conditions and
unpredictability that made perfect positioning difficult. And great
communication with the players throughout. Any Ultimate player who is
dead set on the idea of referees has presumably never had such a great
experience.

So a big thanks to the observers, as well as whoever was responsible
for putting the crew together.

-Jeff
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40592 is a reply to message #40586] Mon, 12 October 2009 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Caleb
Messages: 52
Registered: September 2008
Member
I second that. The observers did a fantastic job with all the games I
watched, Open and Mixed. Congratulations to all the qualifying teams.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40593 is a reply to message #40586] Mon, 12 October 2009 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Oct 12, 11:57 am, Jeff Kula <jeffrey.s.k...@gmail.com> wrote:.

..  Any Ultimate player who is
> dead set on the idea of referees has presumably never had such a great
> experience.

couldnt the same be said for refs though??? after a well reffed
ultimate game.....that was a positive experience for all? I dont get
what you are trying to say here. Seems like you appreciated the
service the observers provided.......so whos to say MORE srevice
(active stall counts, active travels, irs, etc) wouldnt have provided
you with an even "greater" experience? If so fat so......if refs were
out there doing ALL the work related to rule enforcement and game
management then wouldnt it be reasonable to think that THAT would
provide the absolute "greatest" experience?
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40609 is a reply to message #40593] Mon, 12 October 2009 10:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jerrynewsom
Messages: 16
Registered: June 2009
Junior Member
back door masters game was observed and i felt it went really well
too.

thanks to ALL volunteer observers who worked central regional
tournament.

WELL DONE
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40610 is a reply to message #40593] Mon, 12 October 2009 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff Kula
Messages: 5
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
I get what you're saying. I've played reffed sports at various
levels, and I've had good experiences there too. I've also had bad
ones (same with some past observed Ultimate games). I personally get
frustrated in a reffed game with the intentional breaking of the rules
that happens, when both teams are almost expected to get away with as
much as possible without the refs seeing it. Intramural basketball at
my college comes to mind ... I'd much rather play a pick-up game where
people are calling their own fouls than play a game where people are
constantly hugging you when the refs aren't looking.

I know there are people who favor refs ... there are undoubtedly
advantages. My point (which I didn't exactly state in the first post)
was that I can see lots of advantages to observers too. There can be
a great experience both ways, and at some point it becomes personal
preference as to which is better. So when anyone is "dead set" on one
version over the other and cannot see the benefits of the other side,
it surprises me. Surprises me to the point that I become skeptical of
their opinion.

Clearly this thread is about to head in another direction. But as it
does, I don't want this past weekend's observer work to get lost in
the shuffle. Great work again!

-Jeff
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40613 is a reply to message #40610] Mon, 12 October 2009 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jerrynewsom
Messages: 16
Registered: June 2009
Junior Member
active travel calls.....

priceless
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40635 is a reply to message #40609] Mon, 12 October 2009 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Oct 12, 1:03 pm, jerry <jerrynew...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> back door masters game was observed and i felt it went really well
> too.
>
> thanks to ALL volunteer observers who worked central regional
> tournament.
>
> WELL DONE

you all seem pretty darn appreciative of the efforts. just wondering,
are you appreciative enough to pay em a fair wage next year.......of
which, that $39 per game figure that the upa is shelling out seems
fair.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40636 is a reply to message #40610] Mon, 12 October 2009 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Oct 12, 1:04 pm, Jeff Kula <jeffrey.s.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I get what you're saying.  I've played reffed sports at various
> levels, and I've had good experiences there too.  I've also had bad
> ones (same with some past observed Ultimate games).

if you see what i'm saying then why would you try to talk down the
though of wanting refs just cause you had one good experience with a
different form of ultimate arbatration?????.......especially when you
probably have never even tried refs in ultimate?????
------------------------------------------------------------ --



 I personally get
> frustrated in a reffed game with the intentional breaking of the rules
> that happens

but the intentional breaking of rules in ulti (fast counts, offsides,
double teams, marker bumps, bogus calls) dosent equally frustrate
you. It would frustrate me more with ulti especially due to the honor
ideal that you go into the sport with.
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------


, when both teams are almost expected to get away with as
> much as possible without the refs seeing it.

i dont see sports that way. I see them as putting most of there
efforts into execution and, in times of desperation, attempting to
cheat. even so, there are usually equitable consequenses that go
along with the risks involved in such cheating that deter them from
doing it in the first place. And if theer arent, then that just means
the rules dont have enough teeth.......or that the refs arent doing a
good enough job.
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------


 Intramural basketball at
> my college comes to mind ... I'd much rather play a pick-up game where
> people are calling their own fouls than play a game where people are
> constantly hugging you when the refs aren't looking.

but you are the exception. do you see your intramural b-ball league
desolving due to others prefering sotg pick up over said organized
league? didnt think so!
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------
>
> I know there are people who favor refs ... there are undoubtedly
> advantages.  My point (which I didn't exactly state in the first post)
> was that I can see lots of advantages to observers too.

over refs or over nuthin?
-----------------------------------------------------



 There can be
> a great experience both ways, and at some point it becomes personal
> preference as to which is better.

exactly!!!!!! so why not get a complete knowledge of how that
experience works BOTH WAYS before spoutin off of how observing is
better
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------



 So when anyone is "dead set" on one
> version over the other and cannot see the benefits of the other side,
> it surprises me.

well you sure came accross as implying that observing was better
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------




 Surprises me to the point that I become skeptical of
> their opinion.

then you must be pretty skeptical of the traditional, anti ref, spirit
zealot opinion, eh?
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------
>
> Clearly this thread is about to head in another direction.  But as it
> does, I don't want this past weekend's observer work to get lost in
> the shuffle.

then ya might want to think about.......

giving them pay raises

finding more opportunities to hone their skills

standardizing their use in all official comp.

and maybe even gettin involved in some referee experimentation so that
you have a sound comparison to contrast observing vs reffing ulti
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #40637 is a reply to message #40613] Mon, 12 October 2009 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Oct 12, 1:06 pm, jerry <jerrynew...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> active travel calls.....
>
> priceless

correct me if i'm wrong but, if you make an active travel call as an
observer arent you actually performing as more of a "ref" than and
"observer"? just sayin......


maybe this post should read........

reffing ulti.....

priceless
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41160 is a reply to message #40586] Wed, 14 October 2009 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rook
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2009
Junior Member
I have to disagree. I understand that Observing is a thankless job
(I've been an Observer on several occasions), but I would hope that
someone Observing the Semis and Finals at Regionals would at least
know the rules. There were a handful of instances that I saw that
showed me that at least this one Observer was wholly unqualified to be
making any kind of ruling on the game.

--- A player who runs out of bounds is supposed to establish his pivot
foot where he caught the disc?????
--- A disc-space call that is not acknowledged by the marker dropping
the count or giving disc-space doesn't come in on zero after a
violation is called??????
--- A pick is overturned based on a judgment call that a player
doesn't have the athletic ability to make a play on the disc even
though he was admittedly (by the Observer) within 3 meters of the
offensive guy he was guarding when the pick was called??????

On top of that, in the Finals it seemed that they were ruling in favor
of the team that acted the most disgusted about the call in question.
(ie- Madison got just about every call that went to an Observer, which
were a lot because they know how to "use the rules")

Don't get me wrong, I AM a fan of observers, but I want QUALIFIED
Observers. Maybe this guy was qualified given the current criteria,
but it seemed like he was just some dude who's traveled to a couple
tournaments, watched a bit of ultimate after his team was eliminated,
and happened to have an orange shirt in his bag. And really, I'm only
criticizing the guy who was in the endzone closest to road/ farthest
from the parking lot in the Open Semis and Finals. The other
Observers seemed pretty much on top of their game, with the exception
of having a replacement disc handy when the wind blew the disc waaay
out of bounds and they started to count down to the initiation of the
stall.

Observers have come a long way over the years, but I think there's
still a long way to go.

-dr spaghetti envelope
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41162 is a reply to message #40593] Wed, 14 October 2009 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> couldnt the same be said for refs though???  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--no.
because ultimate has observers, not refs.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41163 is a reply to message #40613] Wed, 14 October 2009 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> active travel calls.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---WHOA!!!!
was travelling an ACTIVE call at UPA Central Regionals?????
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41175 is a reply to message #41163] Wed, 14 October 2009 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DK21
Messages: 59
Registered: September 2008
Member
I strongly agree with those thanking the central regionals observers.
My team lost both observed games we played in, and if the observers
weren't there that result wouldn't have changed. But with the
observers everything was faster, more fun, and felt more fair. There
may have been one or two times where the observer didn't know the rule
perfectly - I don't know - but I'm sure the games were played more by
the rules than they would have been without observers, and having an
impartial third party perspective is really sweet when both team's
seasons are on the line. I can think of at least 4 calls in Sunday's
mixed game-to-go that would have probably resolved differently if not
for the observers - 2 in my team's favor and 2 for the other team -
and there were probably more beyond those. So thank you to those
folks who traveled to South Bend and spent their weekend supporting
club Ultimate!
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41179 is a reply to message #41163] Wed, 14 October 2009 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim-Haymaker
Messages: 29
Registered: March 2009
Junior Member
On Oct 14, 3:41 pm, Reggie Fanelli <ageric...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > active travel calls.....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ---WHOA!!!!
> was travelling an ACTIVE call at UPA Central Regionals?????

Nope. But an observer did uphold a Madcow travel call at the end of
the 2nd place final that took back what everyone thought was the game-
winning score by Machine (they scored after a handful more passes).
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41186 is a reply to message #41160] Wed, 14 October 2009 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mpefritz
Messages: 40
Registered: November 2008
Member
Subtle points:

>>>>> --- A disc-space call that is not acknowledged by the marker dropping
the count or giving disc-space doesn't come in on zero after a
violation is called??????

Calling a violation is different than calling "Violation" The new
rule allows 500 fast count calls or disc space or whatever without
play stopping. The play does not stop and the count does not go to
zero unless the thrower calls "Violation" instead of the name of the
2nd + marking violation being committed.

>>>>>>--- A pick is overturned based on a judgment call that a player
doesn't have the athletic ability to make a play on the disc even
though he was admittedly (by the Observer) within 3 meters of the
offensive guy he was guarding when the pick was called??????

This is legitimate, although exceedingly rare. It is just not played
this way by the players. Just because someone was within 3 meters at
the time of the call does not necessarily mean that the outcome of the
play was affected. Subtle, but real. Most of us when playing without
observers realize that it is too fine of a line to draw, so we always
send it back.



>>>>> The other Observers seemed pretty much on top of their game, with the exception of having a replacement disc handy when the wind blew the disc waaay out of bounds and they started to count down to the initiation of the
stall.


I heard this complaint from other players who were there. Apparently
there was lack of knowledge about what "reasonably retrievable" means.


-pacemaker
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41199 is a reply to message #41160] Wed, 14 October 2009 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ultimate7
Messages: 154
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
The 20 second delay rule should not be used or enforced if the
observers are not carrying replacement discs
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41205 is a reply to message #41199] Wed, 14 October 2009 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> The 20 second delay rule should not be used or enforced if the
> observers are not carrying replacement discs
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---wrong.

and to begin with...the observer SHOULD NEVER CARRY a disc.

the observer should always count the time limits between
turnovers....and should NEVER carry a disc.

what is the situation that you are refering to....because an observer
should NOT count until the disc comes to rest.....and...in the event
of the disc rolling far from the field, or sailing over a fence, or
landing in a pond, or going onto another field, or being taken by a
frisky dog....the count should be momentarily suspended.
in these cases...the count should restart at the exact moment that it
will take 20 seconds for the thrower to retrieve the disc and set a
pivot foot.

the only time that the time limit should be reached, thus allowing the
marker to begin his stall, is when the thrower is fiddle bumpin'
around.....or when a team only lets a particular person pick the disc
up, who happens to be real far from the disc at the moment of the
turn.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41206 is a reply to message #41186] Wed, 14 October 2009 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> >>>>> The other Observers seemed pretty much on top of their game, with the exception of having a replacement disc handy when the wind blew the disc waaay out of bounds and they started to count down to the initiation of the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


---doesn't someone on your damn team have a disc?
THAT is your replacement disc!

observers are game officials....not ball boys.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41217 is a reply to message #41160] Wed, 14 October 2009 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
baumanj
Messages: 18
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
I was one of the observers that weekend, though I didn't work the open
final.

On Oct 14, 1:35 pm, rook <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> --- A player who runs out of bounds is supposed to establish his pivot
> foot where he caught the disc?????

I'm not sure what you're asking here. What happened and what do you
think should have happened? Your other points I think were well
addressed by pacemaker.

> Don't get me wrong, I AM a fan of observers, but I want QUALIFIED
> Observers.  Maybe this guy was qualified given the current criteria,
> but it seemed like he was just some dude who's traveled to a couple
> tournaments, watched a bit of ultimate after his team was eliminated,
> and happened to have an orange shirt in his bag.

I'm pretty sure both of the observers on that game have passed the
certification clinic and been selected to work at nationals before.
I'm not saying any observer is perfect, but you're pretty unlikely to
find more qualified personnel, especially at a club regional
tournament, which is the hardest to staff.

> Observers have come a long way over the years, but I think there's
> still a long way to go.

I agree on this point.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41218 is a reply to message #41179] Wed, 14 October 2009 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
baumanj
Messages: 18
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 14, 2:46 pm, Tim <timwalla...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 3:41 pm, Reggie Fanelli <ageric...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > active travel calls.....
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> > ---WHOA!!!!
> > was travelling an ACTIVE call at UPA Central Regionals?????
>
> Nope.  But an observer did uphold a Madcow travel call at the end of
> the 2nd place final that took back what everyone thought was the game-
> winning score by Machine (they scored after a handful more passes).

And it was totally a travel :)

It was unfortunate to have to call it back, as I recall Hensley made a
ridiculous layout catch. Then again, if it weren't for the layout, it
would've been a turnover either way.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41228 is a reply to message #41160] Thu, 15 October 2009 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndrewZill
Messages: 163
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
> On top of that, in the Finals it seemed that they were ruling in favor
> of the team that acted the most disgusted about the call in question.
> (ie- Madison got just about every call that went to an Observer, which
> were a lot because they know how to "use the rules")
>

Other sports have flopping to get a call. Ultimate has acting like a
whiny little 4 year old boy.

I'll take the flopping.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41235 is a reply to message #41217] Thu, 15 October 2009 06:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
meyer.a.seth
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2009
Junior Member
For the first one, a Madison player made a catch a step or two in from
the sideline and there was contact with his defender. His momentum
carried him out of bounds and the contact/his momentum knocked him
over. He called injury, but ended up staying in the game. The
observer directed him to bring the disc back into play at his first
point of contact after the catch (perhaps assuming he'd called foul
rather than injury) but after disagreement from the Machine players
the disc was eventually checked back in at the line.

Seth
Madison Club

On Oct 15, 1:04 am, "Jon \"rB\" Bauman" <baum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was one of the observers that weekend, though I didn't work the open
> final.
>
> On Oct 14, 1:35 pm, rook <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > --- A player who runs out of bounds is supposed to establish his pivot
> > foot where he caught the disc?????
>
> I'm not sure what you're asking here. What happened and what do you
> think should have happened? Your other points I think were well
> addressed by pacemaker.
>
> > Don't get me wrong, I AM a fan of observers, but I want QUALIFIED
> > Observers.  Maybe this guy was qualified given the current criteria,
> > but it seemed like he was just some dude who's traveled to a couple
> > tournaments, watched a bit of ultimate after his team was eliminated,
> > and happened to have an orange shirt in his bag.
>
> I'm pretty sure both of the observers on that game have passed the
> certification clinic and been selected to work at nationals before.
> I'm not saying any observer is perfect, but you're pretty unlikely to
> find more qualified personnel, especially at a club regional
> tournament, which is the hardest to staff.
>
> > Observers have come a long way over the years, but I think there's
> > still a long way to go.
>
> I agree on this point.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41236 is a reply to message #41228] Thu, 15 October 2009 06:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pizzaslot
Messages: 134
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 6:29 am, Heinousboy <andrewz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On top of that, in the Finals it seemed that they were ruling in favor
> > of the team that acted the most disgusted about the call in question.
> > (ie- Madison got just about every call that went to an Observer, which
> > were a lot because they know how to "use the rules")
>
> Other sports have flopping to get a call.  Ultimate has acting like a
> whiny little 4 year old boy.
>
> I'll take the flopping.

You obviously have never played sports....there is plenty of whiny
little boys with the flopping.
Re: Central Regionals observers [message #41240 is a reply to message #41236] Thu, 15 October 2009 07:20 Go to previous message
Douglas T Lilley
Messages: 674
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> > I'll take the flopping.
>
> You obviously have never played sports....there is plenty of whiny
> little boys with the flopping.

In a somewhat related digression I was at the USA/Costa Rica match
(great game) in DC last night, and the CR coach most definitely lost
the game for his team (and got a red card in the process, I thinik it
was him anyway) by ordering his players to flop and fake injuries to
take time off the clock. The ref jumped on it immediately and started
tacking on extra penalty time, in addition to the red he issued a
yellow for flopping and the US scores in the 5th(!) minute of injury
time to deny CR a guaranteed spot in the WC.
So the moral is either:
Everyone needs refs or
Cheaters generally find a way to beat themselves or
the USA futbol team does not give up when it's behind
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