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Conference 1 discussion thread [message #2691 is a reply to message #2684] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Head Beagle
Messages: 65
Registered: September 2008
Member
For all those asking these questions, C1 will not receive support from
the UPA without dramatically altering their plans. Reasons:

http://upa.org/upa/about/publicstatements/eventspolicy

The UPA will not support a reffed series. They wouldn’t post an NUA
tournament on their site a few years ago, they sure as heck aren’t
going to help a reffed C1 with eligibility and other stuff.

The UPA already has plans in motion/contracts in place for this years
college nationals. If C1 wanted UPA support, they would have needed to
plan this in conjunction with the UPA to take over the college
championship series on a UPA assisted time table.

In short, this is an attempt at a hostile takeover of the series on
the part of Cultimate. This is going to be UPA vs. Cultimate, winner
takes the series. Loser, if it is Cultimate, probably falls apart. If
loser is UPA, they switch gears, turn even more toward league, local,
and youth issue, and survive in a reduced state. Within a few years,
Cultimate or someone similar would take over the club series and the
UPA remains in place as an advocate for spirit based ultimate in
leagues and youth (which will continue), but no longer runs
tournaments.

On to what will happen with C1:

Option A: Some teams will sign on initially. Some teams will not. They
are definitely not going to get all 25 of their desired teams. They
will try to fill in the empty spots with other teams with limited
success and will end up with a semi-elite group of teams. The whole
thing will happen parallel to the UPA series and C1 and the UPA will
claim to have the champion. The two series will fight back and forth
for a few years and then one will falter and disappear.

Option B: C1 gets all 25 teams this year, takes over the series, the
UPA college series turns into the NIT. C1 will need to refine its
selection process (hosting larger, more inclusive tournaments in the
fall as qualifiers to determine membership for the spring is one
possibility)

Option C: Florida signs up for C1. No one else does. The whole thing
fails miserably, but Florida declares itself champion of the world.


Questions from the Huddle Article:

From “A Detailed Breakdown”

“Cultimate also wants to make money off a division which has been, in
the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
individual teams.”

What individual teams have been making money off the UPA college
division in the past??

From Brodie:

“If Wisconsin decides to enroll in Conference 1 there will not be a
split Championship. You can't declare yourself the champion without
going through the previous champion.”

What if Wisconsin and Florida go C1, Colorado and Carleton go UPA?
Then what?? Neither will have a good claim to the championship, but
the UPA has the history on its side to be a more legitimate champion.
What happens next year when everyone says the C1 winner wasn’t really
the champion? Does Wisco go back to the UPA?
Re: Conference 1 discussion thread [message #2692 is a reply to message #2691] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff
Messages: 338
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
So you wondered what the rumored $500,000 reserve is for? Probably,
something just like this ... the folks at the UPA do seem to have some
sense

On Oct 15, 10:14 am, Head Beagle <we...@jbu.edu> wrote:
> For all those asking these questions, C1 will not receive support from
> the UPA without dramatically altering their plans. Reasons:
>
> http://upa.org/upa/about/publicstatements/eventspolicy
>
> The UPA will not support a reffed series. They wouldn’t post an NUA
> tournament on their site a few years ago, they sure as heck aren’t
> going to help a reffed C1 with eligibility and other stuff.
>
> The UPA already has plans in motion/contracts in place for this years
> college nationals. If C1 wanted UPA support, they would have needed to
> plan this in conjunction with the UPA to take over the college
> championship series on a UPA assisted time table.
>
> In short, this is an attempt at a hostile takeover of the series on
> the part of Cultimate. This is going to be UPA vs. Cultimate, winner
> takes the series. Loser, if it is Cultimate, probably falls apart. If
> loser is UPA, they switch gears, turn even more toward league, local,
> and youth issue, and survive in a reduced state. Within a few years,
> Cultimate or someone similar would take over the club series and the
> UPA remains in place as an advocate for spirit based ultimate in
> leagues and youth (which will continue), but no longer runs
> tournaments.
>
> On to what will happen with C1:
>
> Option A: Some teams will sign on initially. Some teams will not. They
> are definitely not going to get all 25 of their desired teams. They
> will try to fill in the empty spots with other teams with limited
> success and will end up with a semi-elite group of teams. The whole
> thing will happen parallel to the UPA series and C1 and the UPA will
> claim to have the champion. The two series will fight back and forth
> for a few years and then one will falter and disappear.
>
> Option B: C1 gets all 25 teams this year, takes over the series, the
> UPA college series turns into the NIT. C1 will need to refine its
> selection process (hosting larger, more inclusive tournaments in the
> fall as qualifiers to determine membership for the spring is one
> possibility)
>
>  Option C: Florida signs up for C1. No one else does. The whole thing
> fails miserably, but Florida declares itself champion of the world.
>
> Questions from the Huddle Article:
>
> From “A Detailed Breakdown”
>
> “Cultimate also wants to make money off a division which has been, in
> the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
> individual teams.”
>
> What individual teams have been making money off the UPA college
> division in the past??
>
> From Brodie:
>
> “If Wisconsin decides to enroll in Conference 1 there will not be a
> split Championship. You can't declare yourself the champion without
> going through the previous champion.”
>
> What if Wisconsin and Florida go C1, Colorado and Carleton go UPA?
> Then what?? Neither will have a good claim to the championship, but
> the UPA has the history on its side to be a more legitimate champion.
> What happens next year when everyone says the C1 winner wasn’t really
> the champion? Does Wisco go back to the UPA?
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #2705 is a reply to message #2671] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manzell
Messages: 145
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> Also, I wonder how the alumni who support some of the teams who are
> part of Conference1 feel about this and if they will continue their
> financial support.  And who is to say that teams on Conference1
> campuses will not split into those who play the UPA series and those
> who play Conference1.  Players who were on the B team are now the A
> team.  There could be some very legitimate arguments about who has
> access to practice and tournament fields, school budgets, alumni
> donations and and othe resources.


Another interesting question - How long does the C1 "contract" last?
If current college captains/presidents (team presidents) opt in to the
C1, what happens if next year's leadership wants out? Does the
contract cover the entire school, or just the A team? [What happens to
B-teams then? if they are allowed to play non-C1 teams, the
restriction is fairly bogus. If they aren't, C1 could actually be
hurting alot of the top teams by restricting the ability of new
players to gain experience]

Oh, so many questions. I'll assume that teams that are considering C1
status are asking these questions, and if they aren't, well, they'll
get what they deserve, I suppose.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #2710 is a reply to message #2671] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bryan Steffen
Messages: 3
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
The Play-in game confuses me. First off, that is a lot of money for a
team of college students to fly into Boston to play one game for a
shot at making it into the tournament. Second, the play-in game will
be between the two highest ranked teams outside of Conference-1. Does
that mean they will be referring to the UPA rankings to determine
those teams?
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #2719 is a reply to message #2643] Wed, 15 October 2008 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Theodore Hex
Messages: 32
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 12:00 am, seanc <discj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> b) i wonder: what if any contact did cultimate have with the upa
> before launching this venture?

I heard they talked on Monday, so, the UPA knows about it. Who knows
how the full reaction will go.... but Payne found out a few days ago.

> if none, it seems awfully
> disrespectful and an idiotic way to go about a business proposal. a
> schism within the ultimate community is simply not good for the
> sport. if skip and cyle were solely interested in making money, they
> could have presented their idea to the upa before taking it public and
> figured out a way to make it work for both organizations (and perhaps
> they did). even if the upa wasn't interested, cultimate could have
> then declared they were going to go ahead with the proposal in any
> case and given the upa a graceful way to get on board. i look forward
> to hearing more details, because if no attempt was made to reach out
> to the upa, it seems downright spiteful.
>
> sean
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #2923 is a reply to message #2719] Wed, 15 October 2008 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff
Messages: 338
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
bump

On Oct 15, 11:16�am, Theodore Hex <calmerthanyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 12:00 am, seanc <discj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > b) i wonder: what if any contact did cultimate have with the upa
> > before launching this venture?
>
> I heard they talked on Monday, so, the UPA knows about it. Who knows
> how the full reaction will go.... but Payne found out a few days ago.
>
>
>
> > if none, it seems awfully
> > disrespectful and an idiotic way to go about a business proposal. �a
> > schism within the ultimate community is simply not good for the
> > sport. �if skip and cyle were solely interested in making money, they
> > could have presented their idea to the upa before taking it public and
> > figured out a way to make it work for both organizations (and perhaps
> > they did). �even if the upa wasn't interested, cultimate could have
> > then declared they were going to go ahead with the proposal in any
> > case and given the upa a graceful way to get on board. �i look forward
> > to hearing more details, because if no attempt was made to reach out
> > to the upa, it seems downright spiteful.
>
> > sean- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #2934 is a reply to message #2923] Wed, 15 October 2008 14:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pete
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
I am also very curious to know how the teams in C1 other than Florida
and Texas, which have apparently signed on already, feel about this. I
imagine there had to have been talks, but they only said they had two
teams confirmed.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3084 is a reply to message #2934] Wed, 15 October 2008 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 5:34 pm, Pete <hockeypeteschr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am also very curious to know how the teams in C1 other than Florida
> and Texas, which have apparently signed on already, feel about this. I
> imagine there had to have been talks, but they only said they had two
> teams confirmed.

If I had to guess, I would say that the teams who have a legitimate
chance to win nationals (Wisconsin, Colorado, Carleton, UGA, etc.) are
sitting tight to see which championship will be perceived as more
valuable. Teams for whom even qualifying for nationals is more
uncertain are probably jumping at the chance to pre-emptively be
declared a national-calibre team.

I wonder if Florida's worried they might not qualify for UPA Nationals
this year with only two bids out of the very deep AC, and several of
their all-stars graduating? With C1 they can declare themselves
national qualifiers in October on the basis of last year's
(outstanding) performance, and avoid any Arizona-esque hiccups at
regionals.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3151 is a reply to message #3084] Thu, 16 October 2008 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith.Larsen.TX
Messages: 41
Registered: September 2008
Member
Enforcement:

Lets assume "State" has a C1 contract. Does this mean every player has
to sign this contract, because if the school signs it does that mean
"State" can't send a B team to the UPA series. Are all "State"
students limited to C1 now? If it is just "State's" captain saying
"yeah we'll only play in C1 tournaments" What is stopping him from
breaking his contract and sending a team to the UPA series if they
don't make C1 Nationals? Can't they just send "State-X" and "State-Y"
to non-C1 tournament now? Sure C1 can snub "State" the following year,
but not if 10 schools decide to do this.

Auto-Nationals:

I love the idea of a team qualifying for Nationals based on their
season's performance. In NCAA Basketball if you win your conference
regular season you get an automatic bid to the tournament even if you
don't win a game at your conference tournament. In NCAA Football if
you win the Big 12 South then lose in the Big 12 Tournament you "CAN"
still get a BCS bid. Makes it nice on some of the teams that now don't
have to wait until Sunday night after regionals to start looking at
plane tickets.

Tweaking:

So they got their rough draft posted, yeah a 13 team nationals might
be really strange, and only allowing one-non C1 team into Nationals is
a little excessive. But lets face it, they already run these regular
season tournaments, and teams like UNT get snubbed from Centex already
by the CUltimate staff, so I don't see a big difference in the regular
season. They need to tweak it so that they have maybe a C1 qualifier
in early spring and give non-C1 teams a chance to qualify. Teams like
Dartmouth, Arizona, UNT would be gearing up for the C1 qualifier now
instead of Nationals. And yes the C1 teams would have to change every
year right? Cut the bottom 5 and bring in a new 5 (random number for
this example).

Reality:

This probably won't happen, but this is truly an "Ultimate Revolution"
does anyone else find it funny that a governing body calls their
future projects a "Revolution"? Don't governing bodies try and stop
revolutions? So the NUA brought us observers, C1 will bring us some
much needed Series reform. To bad no single group controls multiple
club tournament so we can get that reformed as well... but maybe the
UPA will get around to that when the youth they are working on now get
old enough for club...

-Keith
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3153 is a reply to message #3151] Thu, 16 October 2008 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vancer
Messages: 184
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
"In NCAA Basketball if you win your conference
regular season you get an automatic bid to the tournament even if you
don't win a game at your conference tournament."

If you win your conference regular season in a major conference, you
have a very good chance at earning one of the at-large bids from the
selection committee. However, in conferences that have championship
tournaments, it is the tournament winner that earns the automatic
bid. Teams from mid-major or smaller conferences that dominate the
regular season often miss out on the big dance because of a loss in
the conference tournament. This is one of the reasons that the
regular season in college basketball (and ultimate) means SO much less
than in college football.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3164 is a reply to message #3151] Thu, 16 October 2008 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MrPinto
Messages: 601
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 16, 9:07 am, Keith.Larsen...@gmail.com wrote:

> I love the idea of a team qualifying for Nationals based on their
> season's performance. In NCAA Basketball if you win your conference
> regular season you get an automatic bid to the tournament even if you
> don't win a game at your conference tournament. In NCAA Football if
> you win the Big 12 South then lose in the Big 12 Tournament you "CAN"
> still get a BCS bid.

This does seem to be the major plus of the C1 proposal - a regular
season that matters. As noted elsewhere, the regular season only
matters for the at large half (ish) of the bball bracket, everyone
else can get in by winning a few games in a row in their championship
tourney. The football situation is actually opposite ultimate: in
ultimate there's no regular season, in football there's no post-
season. Many conferences have no championship and those that do have
a single game, not a bracket. When that's done, there's no means for
sorting out who's better than who really, just a bunch of semi-
meritocracy, semi-corporate selected matchups. If you're lucky you'll
get a game between two teams that most consider to be the top two in
the country and the winner of that can declare himself champion. That
doesn't always happen, and the rest of the folks playing in the "post
season" have little to no claim at a title and are just playing so
that we have something to do over break instead of talking with our
relatives.

Rambling aside, regular seasons that matter are nice, you don't want
the regular season games to matter too much or not matter at all, you
want to get it just right. Unfortunately for C1, the value of a
regular season is to sort out which teams are good and which aren't,
then putting the good ones into the post season. C1 fails at this
since several of the "good ones" won't be participating in their
"regular season." Right idea, wrong implementation.

~p
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3264 is a reply to message #3164] Thu, 16 October 2008 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike McGovern
Messages: 3
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
First of all, why would anyone at all compare C1 to the BCS? The two
are not even close. The BCS is a bowl system, with one bowl acting as
title game, and teams are placed by VOTING (which is why the BCS is
the most retarded system ever conceived). C1 is a 14 (technically 15)
team PLAYOFF. The BCS is NOTHING like a playoff, it's more like a
popularity contest.

Secondly, why are people getting so pissed about the fact that's it's
only a 25 team league? Did it ever occur to anyone that this could
just be the beginning, that the number may be expanded in the future
when the league is actually established and has more revenue? It
would be essentially impossible to try and develop a College Series to
compete with UPA if you invited ever college team in the nation. By
limiting it to a particular number of teams you make it possible to
develop a solid structure to try out the new league. And by trying to
get the TOP 25 teams makes it more likely that this league will be
more marketable bc of the level of competition. And of course no
matter which top 25 are chosen, there will always be teams that are
going to complain bc they didn't make it in, so the fact that certain
teams are being left out is not a legitimate complaint about the
league either.

Thirdly, while I do think the concern for the college eligibility
checking system is a legitimate one, I don't feel that it should
discourage teams (like Georgia) from giving the league a try. Most if
not all teams won't cheat on their rosters anyways (I mean, all
ultimate players play the game with "spirit" right.....?). And do
teams really think this will be a problem in the first year? I would
think it'd be pretty hard to get away with an invalid roster addition
with only 25 teams in the league to keep tabs on, especially as a
result of many teams knowing each other from past competition.

Lastly, for those who play ultimate "for fun" why would you be opposed
to C1? If you play for fun, it would seem to make sense that you
would support a separate league for those teams who are more
competitive and play to win the title. Not to mention, the UPA isn't
going anywhere, so if you prefer UPA's system you are completely free
to continue to play in and support the UPA College Series.

All in all, I think teams should be open to it, if only just to TRY IT
(I commend Florida for committing so early and so strongly). People
must be open to try new things if anything new is to ever develop.
And let's be honest, anyone that's serious about the growth of
ultimate knows that things need to change (i.e. REFEREES!), and knows
that the UPA has historically been way too slow to change anything.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3268 is a reply to message #3164] Thu, 16 October 2008 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike McGovern
Messages: 3
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
A few points...

C1 is nothing like the BCS. The BCS is a bowl system with only 2
teams playing for the title, and they get VOTED into the title game.
C1 is a PLAYOFF system.

I'm not sure why so many people are complaining about the fact that C1
is only inviting 25 teams. It is clearly necessary for them to set a
particular number of teams so that they may develop a solid structure
and schedule for their league. Furthermore, by inviting the TOP 25
teams, the league becomes much more marketable bc of the high level of
competition. And there will always be those fringe teams that
complain that they in fact should have made it into the top 25, some
teams will just have to live with it. Regardless of all this, isn't
it possible that Cultimate plans to expand the numbers if this first
year is successful? One of the largest complaints is of the small
number of teams, yet this is clearly necessary for a first year trial
run, and who knows what the plans will be in the future if it succeeds
(which I sincerely hope it will).

And why are the "for fun"/"spirit" ultimate players opposing this
league? If you like the UPA system, not only can you continue to play
in it, the more competitive teams may in fact be removed from it, so
the "for fun" teams may now have a better chance to play at the top
tier of the UPA and have more "fun" with the other more competitive
teams in another league (Think CBA vs. NBA or NFL vs. CFL/NFL Europe
or NIT vs. NCAA tourney).

College eligibility checking I think is the most legitimate worry
people have cited regarding C1. However, I can't imagine it will be
that much (if at all) of an issue. I gotta believe most (if not all)
teams will not cheat on their roster, and that should be good enough
for at least the first trial year of C1. Regardless though, I don't
think it will be as hard as everyone is making it out to be, to check
eligibility of only 25 (or less) teams.

And lastly, teams should be more willing to TRY IT. Anyone that's
serious about the growth of ultimate realizes it needs to change (i.e.
REFEREES!), and realizes that the UPA is much too slow in its efforts
to change anything. Things like C1 need to happen if ultimate is
going to evolve, people need to be more open to change. I think it'll
be great if C1 succeeds, I think overall it's an excellent design for
the future of ultimate, and I hopefully teams will be willing to give
it a try.

Way to be Florida. I have to say, I agree with pretty much everything
Brodie said.
Hope other teams quickly fall in line.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3275 is a reply to message #3264] Thu, 16 October 2008 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daag Alemayehu
Messages: 249
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 16, 6:02 pm, Mike McGovern <mlmcgov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First of all, why would anyone at all compare C1 to the BCS?  The two
> are not even close.  The BCS is a bowl system, with one bowl acting as
> title game, and teams are placed by VOTING (which is why the BCS is
> the most retarded system ever conceived).  C1 is a 14 (technically 15)
> team PLAYOFF.  The BCS is NOTHING like a playoff, it's more like a
> popularity contest.
>
> Secondly, why are people getting so pissed about the fact that's it's
> only a 25 team league?  Did it ever occur to anyone that this could
> just be the beginning, that the number may be expanded in the future
> when the league is actually established and has more revenue?  It

I completely disagree with your first paragraph because I think you're
overlooking a lot of similarities. Sure C1 has 34+ games instead of
just 1 game like the BCS championship. But the comparison people are
making is that the BCS whittles 117 football teams down to 2 in one
fell swoop, similar to how C1 whittles 400+ ultimate teams down to 25
in one fell swoop.

That point can be debated in circles forever. However, your second
paragraph I agree with 100%, and thank you thank you thank you for
being the first person to finally say this. There's plenty to at
least reasonably bitch about with the way this thing has been shrouded
in secrecy, the way the UPA has been (somewhat) blindsided and/or left
without input, the way the teams were selected, etc. But if people
legitimately expect for something like C1 to be inclusive of EVERY
college team in its first year, they are being unrealistic and unfair
to Cultimate. They chose 25 teams because they thought that'd be a
manageable and marketable starting point.

This is like the second phase of beta testing their idea for a new and
improved college series. Last year they had the Cultimate Cup or
whatever the hell it was called (too lazy to look it up, sorry). Now
they have a minimalistic attempt at a Division I-esque system. Next
year, if this thing works like they hope it will, maybe C1 will
include more teams. Maybe instead of 25 it'll be 64 or 100. Or maybe
they'll try adding a 25-team women's division next. People are
talking out of both sides of their mouths claiming that Cultimate is
trying to do too much but also it's not doing enough. You gotta start
somewhere, people, and that somewhere usually isn't the finish line.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3280 is a reply to message #3264] Thu, 16 October 2008 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MrPinto
Messages: 601
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 16, 3:02 pm, Mike McGovern <mlmcgov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First of all, why would anyone at all compare C1 to the BCS?  The two
> are not even close.  The BCS is a bowl system, with one bowl acting as
> title game, and teams are placed by VOTING (which is why the BCS is
> the most retarded system ever conceived).  C1 is a 14 (technically 15)
> team PLAYOFF.  The BCS is NOTHING like a playoff, it's more like a
> popularity contest.

The obvious comparison would be comparing the 25 team "conference" to
the BCS, since the 25 teams were selected based on a popularity
contest. Granted there's a bracket at the end instead of a series of
pairings, but the general use of whacky things unrelated to wins and
losses is the same.

> Secondly, why are people getting so pissed about the fact that's it's
> only a 25 team league?

Probably because there are very good teams that didn't make the top 25
due to being too unpopular.

> Did it ever occur to anyone that this could
> just be the beginning, that the number may be expanded in the future
> when the league is actually established and has more revenue?

It might be a lot of things, but that's not what it is now. If I were
a senior at a nationals-qualifying team that got left out this year,
I'd be pissed, and you would too.

> And by trying to
> get the TOP 25 teams makes it more likely that this league will be
> more marketable bc of the level of competition.  And of course no
> matter which top 25 are chosen, there will always be teams that are
> going to complain bc they didn't make it in, so the fact that certain
> teams are being left out is not a legitimate complaint about the
> league either.

Sure it is. The league doesn't include a quarterfinalist from last
year's nationals, but does include teams that haven't ever won
sectionals, or who finished 7th at regionals. While the top 10 or so
are solid, the rest appear to have been selected with no regard for
who the "top" teams are presently.

> Lastly, for those who play ultimate "for fun" why would you be opposed
> to C1?  

Because I played for Zona (hypothetical, I don't and never did) and
realized that all the good teams I was beating last year have taken
their disc and gone home?

Because I played for a team that was invited, but I was worried that
I'd end up playing for an illegitimate title played by whatever teams
were 1) popular enough to be invited too, and 2) decided they'd close
their eyes and hope for the best? A good list of the *actual* elite
of college ultimate would be last year's quarter-finalists. Of those
8, Florida's in (by choice), Georgia's out (by choice) and Zona's out
(by ommission). That leaves 5 of the top teams. If I were Wisco,
Colorado, CUT, Harvard or Illinois, I'd be on the phone with the other
four right now, figuring out who's going where. Right now the best
that C1 can manage is 75% of last year's quarter-finalists. If a few
more drop out, I'd hate to be one of the few playing for what would
have to be considered an illegitimate title.

I wonder how strong the urge is for the Hodags to turn C1 down just to
fuck with Florida... =)

~p
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3319 is a reply to message #3264] Thu, 16 October 2008 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
celebrated.alias
Messages: 38
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 16, 4:02 pm, Mike McGovern <mlmcgov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most if
> not all teams won't cheat on their rosters anyways (I mean, all
> ultimate players play the game with "spirit" right.....?).

HAHAHAHAHAHA.... oh, dude. DUDE! Do you know what you just wrote? You
obviously did not play -- nor are you familiar with -- college
ultimate from 1983-1999. It was basically an escalating tit-for-tat
between dishonest teams who broke rules, and the UPA cracking down on
those loopholes. Then teams tried new things, and the UPA caught them.
It was only 4-5 years ago that the UPA starting double-checking
rosters right before Nationals to make sure no one had dropped all
their classes after the roster got submitted. A lot of players play
with Spirit, but it only takes one to ruin it.

> And do
> teams really think this will be a problem in the first year? I would
> think it'd be pretty hard to get away with an invalid roster addition
> with only 25 teams in the league to keep tabs on, especially as a
> result of many teams knowing each other from past competition.

Wrong again. Name five players on Magnum. See? I can't either. I bet
Illinois might be able to. (Might.)

Hey, I have an idea -- wiki-rostering! Anyone can edit your roster,
just put it up there! It'll be right because some volunteer will come
along and correct it. No worries, brah.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3329 is a reply to message #3319] Thu, 16 October 2008 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike McGovern
Messages: 3
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Sorry about the double post. I thought the first didn't take, so I
wrote another, woops.

And I still disagree with the BCS/C1 comparison. Just bc there's a
weak similarity bc both systems "whittle" down teams from a large
number to a small number, doesn't mean they are the same thing and one
can be criticized . The BCS is a system through which a champion is
declared through ONE SINGLE GAME - 2 teams, 1 game. And how do those
2 teams get into this game? They are VOTED in. C1 is a system in
which teams are whittled down from a lot to a little for the sake of
necessity - to try out a new league structure, bc it's the first year
it's ever been done. But how do they crown a champion? Through a
PLAYOFF system in which 15 teams have a chance to win it, and each
winning team has to play multiple games if they are to win the title.
And how do teams get into this PLAYOFF, they are not voted in, they
either get in through a wild card system as a result of their regular
season record, or they win their conference.

All I'm saying is that it's ridiculous to discredit C1 bc it has one
similarity to the hated BCS system. Don't say C1 is like the BCS and
we all hate the BCS, so therefore we should all hate C1. Attack C1
for what it is, not what it reminds you of, especially when there is
only one similarity.

> HAHAHAHAHAHA.... oh, dude. DUDE! Do you know what you just wrote? You
> obviously did not play -- nor are you familiar with -- college
> ultimate from 1983-1999. It was basically an escalating tit-for-tat
> between dishonest teams who broke rules, and the UPA cracking down on
> those loopholes. Then teams tried new things, and the UPA caught them.
> It was only 4-5 years ago that the UPA starting double-checking
> rosters right before Nationals to make sure no one had dropped all
> their classes after the roster got submitted. A lot of players play
> with Spirit, but it only takes one to ruin it.

I know it's pretty hard to tell through a typed message, so just to
clear things up, this: "Most if not all teams won't cheat on their
rosters anyways (I mean, all ultimate players play the game with
"spirit" right.....?)" was a sarcastic comment. I think the idea
that teams at such a high level of competition will play with
"spirit" (which is such a ridiculous term in the first place) is
naive, (which is again why I am not a fan of self-officiating).

> Wrong again. Name five players on Magnum. See? I can't either. I bet
> Illinois might be able to. (Might.)

The fact that neither you, nor me, can name five Magnum players is
irrelevant. I'm pretty sure neither you nor me know as many players
as C1 organizers do, and I'm sure neither you nor me know as many
college players as those players on Magnum or Leadbelly or Hodags,
etc. do. My point is basically the point you made with the wiki-
rostering: with only 25 teams of whom most know each other well
enough, each would all act as a decent check on the other. At least
enough to handle a one year trial league until a more viable roster
checking system is later put in place.

Basically my whole point is that this shouldn't discourage teams from
at least trying C1 out for one year, THEN if a viable roster checking
system isn't put into place, teams might have reason to complain as it
became a problem. Feel me, brah?
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3333 is a reply to message #3329] Thu, 16 October 2008 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pete
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 16, 10:54 pm, Mike McGovern <mlmcgov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry about the double post.  I thought the first didn't take, so I
> wrote another, woops.
>
> And I still disagree with the BCS/C1 comparison.  Just bc there's a
> weak similarity bc both systems "whittle" down teams from a large
> number to a small number, doesn't mean they are the same thing and one
> can be criticized .  The BCS is a system through which a champion is
> declared through ONE SINGLE GAME - 2 teams, 1 game.  And how do those
> 2 teams get into this game?  They are VOTED in.  C1 is a system in
> which teams are whittled down from a lot to a little for the sake of
> necessity - to try out a new league structure, bc it's the first year
> it's ever been done.  But how do they crown a champion?  Through a
> PLAYOFF system in which 15 teams have a chance to win it, and each
> winning team has to play multiple games if they are to win the title.
> And how do teams get into this PLAYOFF, they are not voted in, they
> either get in through a wild card system as a result of their regular
> season record, or they win their conference.
>

I find the BCS comparison apt for a different reason. The BCS actually
decides five games, the Rose, Orange, Sugar, and Fiesta Bowls, as well
as the National Championship game. It also picks a chosen six
conferences, and gives those teams a significant advantage in
entering, although it allows for a tiny loophole by which the non-BCS
schools can get in. C1 offers 13 playoff spots to 25 teams, and 1
playoff spot to the best of the remainder, much like the BCS offers 10
bowl bids with the best chance being for the 60 odd teams in the BCS
conferences, with the chance that a team could sneak in for one spot.

Again, I am skeptical because of the questionable release of
information, although I will reserve the right to change my mind if
Cultimate demonstrates an viable intention to expand in the long term
to make this a true benefit to all of college ultimate.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3339 is a reply to message #3333] Thu, 16 October 2008 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pete
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 16, 11:55 pm, Tom Shane <tomshanetomsh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I will reserve the right to change my mind if
> > Cultimate demonstrates an viable intention to expand in the long term
> > to make this a true benefit to all of college ultimate.
>
> You honestly believe this to not be the case?

I have my reservations. Again, most of what I read so far has been
conjuncture, and I haven't seen Cultimate answer the questions. If
they were to announce a plan to remain at 25 teams a year, and just
shuffle a few in and out this year, I would consider it a bad plan. I
am no better than the rest on here; I am just stating the questions I
would like to have answered.
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3341 is a reply to message #3333] Thu, 16 October 2008 21:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Shane
Messages: 25
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
> I will reserve the right to change my mind if
> Cultimate demonstrates an viable intention to expand in the long term
> to make this a true benefit to all of college ultimate.

You honestly believe this to not be the case?
Re: WOW!!! Shaking up College Ultimate - READ THIS!! [message #3412 is a reply to message #3339] Fri, 17 October 2008 08:52 Go to previous message
Keith.Larsen.TX
Messages: 41
Registered: September 2008
Member
Maybe I was the one who brought up BCS in the first place, my main
comparison was that a team OU can lose the Big 12 Championship and
still get a "top 8" bowl game. Under the current UPA Regional Format a
2nd place Regional team can be excluded from the "top 16."

Here is a better comparison, I just watched this on ESPN Classic. The
BCS was formed because the old bowl system has the same conference
champions playing in the same bowl games which created a SPLIT
NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. It was created as a temporary solution which we
can't get out of because of MONEY.

So C1 is going to come along, give a team a national championship,
then the UPA will have its own national championship and we will have
a SPLIT NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. Please are saying it is just 25 now and
that this is a temporary solution... well so was the BCS and it is the
same now as when it started... and teams said "Well lets just try it
and see how it works" well it sucked and they are stuck now. C1 wants
to make MONEY off of nationals,

how will be not get stuck? how are we sure they will expand their
teams?

What is this going to do for recruiting for the schools left out of
the C1 division?

Schools that didn't make a bowl game can still recruit with the
prospect of a future national championship. Texas A&M's football
program would be F'ed if they did FBC1 (Football Conference 1) good
luck now bottom 1/2 of the SEC and Big 12... yeah you were all top 25
ranked teams nationally but with the new FBC1 program we are cutting
you all out now...

Why couldn't they just say, we aren't going to host Centex, Trouble In
Vegas, Stanford Invite, etc. until the UPA sits down with Cultimate
and captains of the national qualifiers from last year and hash out a
new college format, we are boycotting until then... (yes yes I'm aware
they are already boycotting all non-C1 tournaments...)

C1 is WORST than the BCS... but no it is not even close to the same
thing.
-Keith
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