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Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2721 is a reply to message #2694] Wed, 15 October 2008 08:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pfkmerl
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 10:23 am, Hazera 36 <Francisco.haz...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Honestly if people want to talk about good change we should probably
> just kick it directly to a single elimination 64 team bracket.  More
> teams, more story lines, and hopefully some elimination of this
> retarded wild card format based on performance done 365 days prior...
> now that's just funny.
>
> Change is good.

Choosing the Top 25 to compete in every game meaningful to the
National Championship is much more far-reaching than the wild card
format.

Some change is good. Some change is bad.

Ending a post with a false declarative sentence is bad.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2726 is a reply to message #2668] Wed, 15 October 2008 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Dickerson
Messages: 14
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 4:25 am, Axl <Layoutpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
> should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
> all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
> success of Conference 1 skyrockets.

I only have 4-5 years to play college ultimate. I don't have time to
wait and see if this is a success or failure. I want all my games to
count for something not just a year or two's worth.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2728 is a reply to message #2720] Wed, 15 October 2008 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 11:16 am, Alex Peters <muis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right, because sportsmanship doesn't exist unless it's labeled "spirit
> of the game" and all them cheatin' bastards that play reffed
> basketball, football, soccer, hockey, and baseball are out their
> throwin' 'bows at each other's head in rec league while the refs
> aren't looking.
>
> Oh, and no one ever cheats in ultimate now.

Your hyperbole does not effectively counter the reasonable point made
by Kohn. Are there ways to minimize the impact? Sure. Should we be
confident that Cultimate will strike an appropriate balance? I have
no idea.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2731 is a reply to message #2726] Wed, 15 October 2008 08:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CBrowning
Messages: 190
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> I only have 4-5 years to play college ultimate. I don't have time to
> wait and see if this is a success or failure. I want all my games to
> count for something not just a year or two's worth.

I think that is the attitude that is going to kill this idea. College
players are not going to be willing to give up their limited years of
eligibility to play in a start up system. The risk is not worth it to
them. They do not want to suffer the growing pains now for a better
product down the road, when they will not get the benefit of that
better product.

It's kind of lame, but I if I were in their shoes I am not sure I
would think differently.

Chris
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2751 is a reply to message #2688] Wed, 15 October 2008 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Katherine Wooten
Messages: 9
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
From the article in the Huddle, this jumps out at me:

"Cultimate also wants to make money off a division which has been, in
the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
individual teams."

This should alarm any college team or league that currently runs any
successful mid-to-high level college tournaments. Until Cultimate
came onto the scene, most (all?) college tournaments were executed as
fundraisers for the home team. Which is a HUGE benefit in a sport in
which not many schools provide attractive funding to their club
programs (or frisbee in particular). Admittedly, I don't know what
kind of agreement Cultimate makes with the men's and women's teams (as
far as how much money teams make when they allow Cultimate to take off
several thousand off the top). It does bother me that this is a money-
making venture for Skip, first and foremost.

Brodie mentions that partaking in the Conference 1 series will be less
expensive than their former seasons. However, for their 2008 season
he was listing out a whole group of tournaments that Skip engineered
and created -- It does get expensive to fly to three tournaments in
the spring -- Vegas, Stanford, and Centex -- and pay $350 a pop to
play. And the format that Brodie is championing now is one that
existed until just a few years ago. Teams played a majority of their
tournaments regionally, and might fly to a Stanford Invite (or CCC if
you were on the west coast) for top competition. There are plenty of
East Coast tournaments that have withered and diminished because their
own regional competition took their athleticism and their dollars
elsewhere. And Skip was at the forefront of that movement.

How expensive exactly is this contract with Conference 1 going to be?
$2000 a team? $3000 a team? Is it going to prohibit teams from
participating in the UPA Series or will they be able to do both?

Secondly, does Cultimate plan to provide insurance to those players
participating in their tournaments? This is one oft-overlooked
benefit of signing a UPA waiver and playing in the Sectionals,
Regionals, and Nationals tournaments. If anything were to happen on
the field site, the UPA has general liability insurance in place to
protect itself and players.

I do recognize the great job that Skip has done in cultivating
mainstream sponsorships for the sport, especially in association with
tournaments. And I think that the idea of having a "Grand Prix" style
tournament format leading into the Series is a good one. However,
this is a change that could be made within the current UPA structure
(and has been discussed at the Strategic Revolution Meetings). I
would much rather see Skip use his money-making savvy and ideas within
the existing system instead of potentially dividing a very competitive
division in a rash manner that does undermine the existing governing
body of ultimate.

Katherine
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2803 is a reply to message #2751] Wed, 15 October 2008 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Max
Messages: 343
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
My take on this is that this is a coup of the UPA's college ultimate
program. It would be like a less fair, more disorganized version of
the UPA's current system. Cultimate has done a great job running
tournaments, but it is a big stretch to try to run all of college
ultimate. The UPA has a lot of experience verifying college
eligibility, and cultimate will probably spend a lot more money to
attempt getting their eligibility verification system up to par than
the UPA did to begin with. This division 1 makles it a lot easier for
the selected teams to go to nationals than everyone else. With the
UPA, every team starts out equal in the series. Why should we give up
this equality? I can see the the reason for the selected teams to
participate; they have a much better shot at making nationals now!
This isn't fair. The UPA adjusted their series with extra strength
bids, so that the best teams would usually make it (not always). This
system makes it so that the weaker teams still make nationals, while
better teams will suffer because they haven't been chosen. This is a
horrible idea and is a worse version of the UPA series.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2807 is a reply to message #2803] Wed, 15 October 2008 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
celebrated.alias
Messages: 38
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 12:03 pm, Max <vanillathunde...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> My take on this is that this is a coup of the UPA's college ultimate
> program. It would be like a less fair, more disorganized version of
> the UPA's current system. Cultimate has done a great job running
> tournaments, but it is a big stretch to try to run all of college
> ultimate. The UPA has a lot of experience verifying college
> eligibility, and cultimate will probably spend a lot more money to
> attempt getting their eligibility verification system up to par than
> the UPA did to begin with. This division 1 makles it a lot easier for
> the selected teams to go to nationals than everyone else. With the
> UPA, every team starts out equal in the series. Why should we give up
> this equality? I can see the the reason for the selected teams to
> participate; they have a much better shot at making nationals now!
> This isn't fair. The UPA adjusted their series with extra strength
> bids, so that the best teams would usually make it (not always). This
> system makes it so that the weaker teams still make nationals, while
> better teams will suffer because they haven't been chosen. This is a
> horrible idea and is a worse version of the UPA series.

Whose coup is it? The UPA has benefited tremendously from Cultimate's
tournaments in the last 5 years. Nationals is better because more info
is known about teams. Three of the four strongest tournaments last
year were Cultimate operations.

And as for equality.... that's going out the door soon anyway. The UPA
is already moving towards a tiered system, so now they just have a
scapegoat.

I think Cultimate is taking a bold step the UPA has so far been
unwilling (or too slow -- just as damning) to take.

MCA
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2808 is a reply to message #2803] Wed, 15 October 2008 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
swillaholic
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 2:03 pm, Max <vanillathunde...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> My take on this is that this is a coup of the UPA's college ultimate
> program. It would be like a less fair, more disorganized version of
> the UPA's current system. Cultimate has done a great job running
> tournaments, but it is a big stretch to try to run all of college
> ultimate. The UPA has a lot of experience verifying college
> eligibility, and cultimate will probably spend a lot more money to
> attempt getting their eligibility verification system up to par than
> the UPA did to begin with. This division 1 makles it a lot easier for
> the selected teams to go to nationals than everyone else. With the
> UPA, every team starts out equal in the series. Why should we give up
> this equality? I can see the the reason for the selected teams to
> participate; they have a much better shot at making nationals now!
> This isn't fair. The UPA adjusted their series with extra strength
> bids, so that the best teams would usually make it (not always). This
> system makes it so that the weaker teams still make nationals, while
> better teams will suffer because they haven't been chosen. This is a
> horrible idea and is a worse version of the UPA series.

A coup?
Unfair?
Giving up equality?

Dear Mr. Vanillathunder,
Please calm down. This is not the end of ultimate.
Play on.
-swill
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2829 is a reply to message #2751] Wed, 15 October 2008 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shane
Messages: 9
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
> "Cultimate also wants to make money off a division which has been, in
> the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
> individual teams."
>
> This should alarm any college team or league that currently runs any
> successful mid-to-high level college tournaments. Until Cultimate
> came onto the scene, most (all?) college tournaments were executed as
> fundraisers for the home team. Which is a HUGE benefit in a sport in
> which not many schools provide attractive funding to their club
> programs (or frisbee in particular). Admittedly, I don't know what
> kind of agreement Cultimate makes with the men's and women's teams (as
> far as how much money teams make when they allow Cultimate to take off
> several thousand off the top). It does bother me that this is a money-
> making venture for Skip, first and foremost.
>
> you were on the west coast) for top competition. There are plenty of
> East Coast tournaments that have withered and diminished because their
> own regional competition took their athleticism and their dollars
> elsewhere. And Skip was at the forefront of that movement.
>
> How expensive exactly is this contract with Conference 1 going to be?
> $2000 a team? $3000 a team? Is it going to prohibit teams from
> participating in the UPA Series or will they be able to do both?

As I understand it, a C1 contract does not cost anything. By taking
away the need for a bigger budget, the need for individual team
fundrasing goes away. This allows players to be just players, not
administrators, TDs, customer service, and event planners as well. If
Skip runs a good tournament, why not let him, and get back to the
reasons people join teams, to play.

Aside from CCC, and maybe Terminus, I can't think of tournament that
consistently brings in the top competition. From the C1 website, there
are a lot more tournaments in the midwest and east coast. So I think
he's doing a good job of bringing the competition back from the west.

Finally, the man's gotta eat. It takes a lot of time to work this
stuff out, so why shouldn't he get paid for it? The students pay a ton
more in tuition, right? For the much longer hours that Skip puts in,
he gets paid less than a teacher. He takes great care of those that
help him put this stuff together, making sure they get there's before
he gets his. If you think his "big corporate salary" of ramen noodles
is going to buy him a yacht and not find it's way back into the
ultimate community, you are sorely mistaken.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2835 is a reply to message #2803] Wed, 15 October 2008 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 2:03 pm, Max <vanillathunde...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The UPA has a lot of experience verifying college
> eligibility, and cultimate will probably spend a lot more money to
> attempt getting their eligibility verification system up to par than
> the UPA did to begin with.

It is easy enough to weasel around the UPA's eligibility
restrictions. It just takes some outright dishonesty. If it's even
easier to get around the C1 restrictions, then maybe I'll play in the
C1 series this year. Surely Cyle won't punish a bit of dishonesty
(referring to his favorable view of cheating, not his alleged/admitted
embezzling).
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2839 is a reply to message #2835] Wed, 15 October 2008 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Dulabon
Messages: 18
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Cultimate is changing the name to Flatball, too.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2862 is a reply to message #2835] Wed, 15 October 2008 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam Dyer
Messages: 54
Registered: October 2008
Member
Dearest Cultimate,

Would the 25 teams in C1 be subjected to a qualification for the next
year's league in the same mold as the way the English Premier Footbol
league works? There has to be some sort of repercussions for a team
falling well below a standard of play.

College Ultimate in my opinion is akin to College Basketball in terms
of energy exerted in playing a game. Also, it isn't all that
difficult (physically on the individual) to hold a 32 or 64 team
single elimination tournament in a single 3-day weekend. Why not
model it after the NCAA Basketball qualification (automatic bids for
conference champions, etc...)? You could even have Gerics put his
NUMP to good use and possibly get better voter turnout... (from what I
saw of his total votes counted, it was far below the number of actual
delegates) because it would actually mean something when selecting the
at-large bids.

Of course, this is all only good if you really want Ultimate to go in
the direction of a legitimized NCAA sport.

Respectfully,
Random Dood
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2864 is a reply to message #2862] Wed, 15 October 2008 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pete
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
25 teams is just too small. It would be the most limited championship
in any collegiate sport, club or college. If they really wanted to
test drive it, they need more teams. Would the argument be as vicious
if the line had been drawn lower? If the argument wasn't "we won't
take Arizona or North Texas" as opposed to "Which is going to be the
last NW team, Whitman or Oregon State?" The reason the NCAA Basketball
is the most legitimate championship is because the 66th team in really
doesn't have as much reason to complain. The BCS gets complained about
all the time, and this is more limiting than the BCS.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2869 is a reply to message #2606] Wed, 15 October 2008 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wormser
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
I've tried to scan through the several threads to see if anyone else
has made this point, and if I missed it I apologize, but it seems like
Cultimate has suddenly given a lot of power to the players of the 24
teams of Conference 1. I would hope that before they agree to sign
contracts to join up with this concept that they realize the immense
bargaining power they now have as a collective group. If there is
something about Conference 1 that they don't like they could use that
pull to force Skip and Cyle to change it. For example, Cultimate
wants to implement referees necessitating a new rule system. If the
group of teams doesn't agree with this rule or that, they could use
their pull to get some immediate change.

And since Mr. Smith named it as the #1 reason why ultimate is
stagnant, is anyone else curious as to how Cultimate intends to get
enough refs at each tournament? Who will be training them on the new
system? Are only the Conference 1 games at a tournament like Trouble
in Vegas going to be reffed? How much will they be paid? and will
that factor into the bid price of the teams that are not members of
Conference 1?

So I would suggest taking your time to the 50 or so captains that are
working out whether this is the correct choice for their own team as
well as the hundreds of others around the country.

Adam "wormser" Bunn
UCSD alumni
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2873 is a reply to message #2720] Wed, 15 October 2008 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Head Beagle
Messages: 65
Registered: September 2008
Member
and all them cheatin' bastards that play reffed
> basketball, football, soccer, hockey,  and baseball are out their
> throwin' 'bows at each other's head in rec league while the refs
> aren't looking.
>

Apparently you have never played rec league, adult soccer or
basketball where yes, people are throwing bows at each others heads,
whether the ref is looking or not. Not all leagues are like this, mind
you, but a lot are.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2890 is a reply to message #2659] Wed, 15 October 2008 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
qixx
Messages: 8
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 12:22 am, bww <wietgr...@wisc.edu> wrote:
> I find this idea abhorrent.
> Is going to sectionals really that much of a problem?  Madison is an
> hour away from its sectionals, not even worth getting a hotel.
> Florida is (according to google maps) about 2 hours away from its
> sections.  There are teams, I assume, that travel longer, yet
> sectionals is frequently the closest tournament teams go to (at least
> here up north).  Travel isnt a legitimate reason to ditch the series.

> Regionals is something else entirely.  Not only was it a 2 hour drive,
> but the hodags beat Iowa on universe point at regions.  Had it gone
> the other way it would have, undoubtedly, been the greatest moment in
> many of the Iowa players ultimate careers.  Iowa did better against
> the hodags than any team at nationals, yet they arent C1.  Regional
> teams are competition.
>

Travel to sectionals in Big Sky Section can be a real problem. The
section covers parts of the following states: Montana, Idaho, Utah,
Nevada, Wyoming and possibly more. They often have trouble getting
more than 4 teams to show up. From the two farthest schools i know of
in the section it is a 17+ hour drive according to google maps. This
means around 3 hours by air and i don't know any teams that have
planes in that section. That can be a big trip for sectionals. The
team that went to regionals last year from the section had a 15+ hour
drive to regionals (around 13 for sectionals). More regional
tournaments would be a great improvement.

I used to play for Brigham Young (not the only team in the nation that
didn't play Sunday for religious reasons - just the best known) so i'm
split on this. i'd love the sport to become more like an NCAA sport
because then the "BYU Rule" would come into play. But this would mess
over most tournaments because they could not eliminate BYU because of
sunday play issues (lawsuits) and mean that anytime they have a chance
for any kind of title (even tourney champ) the tournament would have
to accommodate them (no sunday play). I did not mind not playing the
2nd day of tournaments. So if any team that rule would affect could
qualify then it would really cause problems for any organizing body.
But the prospect of more play - the "league" would have to (lawsuits)
schedule BYU once it grew to say 100 teams as they tend to be around
75 in the UPA standings annually - is very appealing. The current
system does not have this problem as BYU is willing to forfeit their
first Sunday game as needed and be out of tournaments.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2911 is a reply to message #2890] Wed, 15 October 2008 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff
Messages: 338
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Due to Title IX and increasing pressure on athletic department
budgets, Ultimate can really give up the idea of becoming an NCAA
sport.

On Oct 15, 4:22�pm, qixx <qixxt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 12:22�am, bww <wietgr...@wisc.edu> wrote:
>
> > I find this idea abhorrent.
> > Is going to sectionals really that much of a problem? �Madison is an
> > hour away from its sectionals, not even worth getting a hotel.
> > Florida is (according to google maps) about 2 hours away from its
> > sections. �There are teams, I assume, that travel longer, yet
> > sectionals is frequently the closest tournament teams go to (at least
> > here up north). �Travel isnt a legitimate reason to ditch the series.
> > Regionals is something else entirely. �Not only was it a 2 hour drive,
> > but the hodags beat Iowa on universe point at regions. �Had it gone
> > the other way it would have, undoubtedly, been the greatest moment in
> > many of the Iowa players ultimate careers. �Iowa did better against
> > the hodags than any team at nationals, yet they arent C1. �Regional
> > teams are competition.
>
> Travel to sectionals in Big Sky Section can be a real problem. The
> section covers parts of the following states: Montana, Idaho, Utah,
> Nevada, Wyoming and possibly more. �They often have trouble getting
> more than 4 teams to show up. �From the two farthest schools i know of
> in the section it is a 17+ hour drive according to google maps. �This
> means around 3 hours by air and i don't know any teams that have
> planes in that section. �That can be a big trip for sectionals. The
> team that went to regionals last year from the section had a 15+ hour
> drive to regionals (around 13 for sectionals). �More regional
> tournaments would be a great improvement.
>
> I used to play for Brigham Young (not the only team in the nation that
> didn't play Sunday for religious reasons - just the best known) so i'm
> split on this. �i'd love the sport to become more like an NCAA sport
> because then the "BYU Rule" would come into play. �But this would mess
> over most tournaments because they could not eliminate BYU because of
> sunday play issues (lawsuits) and mean that anytime they have a chance
> for any kind of title (even tourney champ) the tournament would have
> to accommodate them (no sunday play). �I did not mind not playing the
> 2nd day of tournaments. �So if any team that rule would affect could
> qualify then it would really cause problems for any organizing body.
> But the prospect of more play - the "league" would have to (lawsuits)
> schedule BYU once it grew to say 100 teams as they tend to be around
> 75 in the UPA standings annually - is very appealing. The current
> system does not have this problem as BYU is willing to forfeit their
> first Sunday game as needed and be out of tournaments.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2916 is a reply to message #2839] Wed, 15 October 2008 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bww
Messages: 39
Registered: October 2008
Member
Random point for discussion, and ill preface it with 'Rook is no
longer at Florida right?' does Florida deserve to be there? Florida
wasnt a nationals team before Geheret and Gibson, then were a great
team. Now, i agree with brodie, (from the huddle interview) "I like
the set up they have where we go straight into Nationals" who the
hell wouldnt? but wait, has Florida ever made natties without
Gibson? Werent they a darkhorse in 06 without him? Do they deserve
to be there?

Same goes for the Hodags, they lost a LOT of guys from the last 2
years. Do they deserve to be there?
Same goes for Michigan, they lost Will Neff right? Do they deserve to
be there?
Same goes for Stanford, they had a down year, and lost Sherwood didnt
they? Do they deserve to be there?
Same goes for Wisconsin-B, they lost a LOT of guys. Do they deserve
to be there?

Now, im going to suggest an experiment to prove they belong. A series
of tournaments in which we ramp up the competition quickly, have them
play easier competition and when they win, they can move up.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2919 is a reply to message #2829] Wed, 15 October 2008 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Muff
Messages: 9
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 1:49 pm, Shane <meshac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Cultimate also wants to make money off a division which has been, in
> > the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
> > individual teams."
>
> > This should alarm any college team or league that currently runs any
> > successful mid-to-high level college tournaments.  Until Cultimate
> > came onto the scene, most (all?) college tournaments were executed as
> > fundraisers for the home team.  Which is a HUGE benefit in a sport in
> > which not many schools provide attractive funding to their club
> > programs (or frisbee in particular).  Admittedly, I don't know what
> > kind of agreement Cultimate makes with the men's and women's teams (as
> > far as how much money teams make when they allow Cultimate to take off
> > several thousand off the top).  It does bother me that this is a money-
> > making venture for Skip, first and foremost.
>
> > you were on the west coast) for top competition.   There are plenty of
> > East Coast tournaments that have withered and diminished because their
> > own regional competition took their athleticism and their dollars
> > elsewhere.  And Skip was at the forefront of that movement.
>
> > How expensive exactly is this contract with Conference 1 going to be?
> > $2000 a team? $3000 a team?  Is it going to prohibit teams from
> > participating in the UPA Series or will they be able to do both?
>
> As I understand it, a C1 contract does not cost anything. By taking
> away the need for a bigger budget, the need for individual team
> fundrasing goes away. This allows players to be just players, not
> administrators, TDs, customer service, and event planners as well. If
> Skip runs a good tournament, why not let him, and get back to the
> reasons people join teams, to play.
>
> Aside from CCC, and maybe Terminus, I can't think of tournament that
> consistently brings in the top competition. From the C1 website, there
> are a lot more tournaments in the midwest and east coast. So I think
> he's doing a good job of bringing the competition back from the west.
>
> Finally, the man's gotta eat. It takes a lot of time to work this
> stuff out, so why shouldn't he get paid for it? The students pay a ton
> more in tuition, right? For the much longer hours that Skip puts in,
> he gets paid less than a teacher. He takes great care of those that
> help him put this stuff together, making sure they get there's before
> he gets his. If you think his "big corporate salary" of ramen noodles
> is going to buy him a yacht and not find it's way back into the
> ultimate community, you are sorely mistaken.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

How does this take away the need for individual team fundraising? For
the top 25 teams it may. What about the hundreds of other teams that
will now be paying more in order to subsidize all of the amenities for
the top teams. These lesser (in Skip and Cyle's opinion) teams will
also pay for Skip and Cyle's salary along with all of their cronies
who will help them run these things.

I didn't know that Cultimate published Skip's yearly wages. Can you
post the link? Where is the proof to support these statements.

I would also like someone to explain to me what makes Cultimate
tournaments so great. Everyone who supports them says this. Is it
the crappy fields in Vegas? Is it the exorbitant entry fees? Is it
the way that they ignore any teams not in the power pools (much like
their current proposal)? Ive been to some Cyle run tournaments. When
he was desperate for money at FWC '07 I remember outrage from many of
the teams now supporting Cultimate. That was a $300+ tournament at
which water was scarce. For some reason people refuse to remember
things that happened in the not so distant past.

Also Skip is not a hero for bringing the tournaments back out of the
west. He brought them there in the first place.

Muff
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2932 is a reply to message #2919] Wed, 15 October 2008 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clrydin
Messages: 30
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 3:54 pm, Muff <john.as...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 1:49 pm, Shane <meshac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > "Cultimate also wants to make money off a division which has been, in
> > > the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
> > > individual teams."
>
> > > This should alarm any college team or league that currently runs any
> > > successful mid-to-high level college tournaments.  Until Cultimate
> > > came onto the scene, most (all?) college tournaments were executed as
> > > fundraisers for the home team.  Which is a HUGE benefit in a sport in
> > > which not many schools provide attractive funding to their club
> > > programs (or frisbee in particular).  Admittedly, I don't know what
> > > kind of agreement Cultimate makes with the men's and women's teams (as
> > > far as how much money teams make when they allow Cultimate to take off
> > > several thousand off the top).  It does bother me that this is a money-
> > > making venture for Skip, first and foremost.
>
> > > you were on the west coast) for top competition.   There are plenty of
> > > East Coast tournaments that have withered and diminished because their
> > > own regional competition took their athleticism and their dollars
> > > elsewhere.  And Skip was at the forefront of that movement.
>
> > > How expensive exactly is this contract with Conference 1 going to be?
> > > $2000 a team? $3000 a team?  Is it going to prohibit teams from
> > > participating in the UPA Series or will they be able to do both?
>
> > As I understand it, a C1 contract does not cost anything. By taking
> > away the need for a bigger budget, the need for individual team
> > fundrasing goes away. This allows players to be just players, not
> > administrators, TDs, customer service, and event planners as well. If
> > Skip runs a good tournament, why not let him, and get back to the
> > reasons people join teams, to play.
>
> > Aside from CCC, and maybe Terminus, I can't think of tournament that
> > consistently brings in the top competition. From the C1 website, there
> > are a lot more tournaments in the midwest and east coast. So I think
> > he's doing a good job of bringing the competition back from the west.
>
> > Finally, the man's gotta eat. It takes a lot of time to work this
> > stuff out, so why shouldn't he get paid for it? The students pay a ton
> > more in tuition, right? For the much longer hours that Skip puts in,
> > he gets paid less than a teacher. He takes great care of those that
> > help him put this stuff together, making sure they get there's before
> > he gets his. If you think his "big corporate salary" of ramen noodles
> > is going to buy him a yacht and not find it's way back into the
> > ultimate community, you are sorely mistaken.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> How does this take away the need for individual team fundraising? For
> the top 25 teams it may.  What about the hundreds of other teams that
> will now be paying more in order to subsidize all of the amenities for
> the top teams. These lesser (in Skip and Cyle's opinion) teams will
> also pay for Skip and Cyle's salary along with all of their cronies
> who will help them run these things.
>
> I didn't know that Cultimate published Skip's yearly wages.  Can you
> post the link?  Where is the proof to support these statements.
>
> I would also like someone to explain to me what makes Cultimate
> tournaments so great.  Everyone who supports them says this.  Is it
> the crappy fields in Vegas? Is it the exorbitant entry fees?  Is it
> the way that they ignore any teams not in the power pools (much like
> their current proposal)? Ive been to some Cyle run tournaments.  When
> he was desperate for money at FWC '07 I remember outrage from many of
> the teams now supporting Cultimate.  That was a $300+ tournament at
> which water was scarce.  For some reason people refuse to remember
> things that happened in the not so distant past.
>
> Also Skip is not a hero for bringing the tournaments back out of the
> west.  He brought them there in the first place.
>
> Muff- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

good question... what does make Cultimate tournaments so great? yeah
i agree that Vegas is a cool city for college students to visit, but
the majority of players arent even 21. the fees are always pretty
ridiculous, and the fields not that great. is it because 5 ultimate
shows up and sells overpriced cheap-quality merch? because i'm sure VC
would love the opportunity to attend a big name tournament in the
Spring and sell merchandise.

other tournaments can be set up with the remaining top-tier teams, in
cities that are much more accessable, cheaper fees, quality fields...
we don't all have to support cultimate, or continue attending their
tournaments.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2937 is a reply to message #2919] Wed, 15 October 2008 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skipper
Messages: 13
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
The biggest problem I see is that the people running this are doing so
to primarily make money. Making money in itself is not bad.
Something seems wrong, however, when two small groups of people are
reaping ALL the money off the sport which they are governing and
creating the rules and guidelines for.

When the governing body of a sport like ultimate, which has 400 +
college teams competing, has it's main purpose aligned with making a
buck, the decision makers' (first of all, I don't have a reason to
trust these guys for shit... do you?) aren't going to take into
account what's best for the sport as a whole. Rather, they will make
decisions which will benefit them best financially. Having two random
dudes select the teams that will compete on the highest level and
receive the most attention, so that these two dudes themselves, not
the schools, can make money, seems fucked up to me. It appears that
these two guys will manipulate schools to make themselves the most
money possible and if, as a secondary or tertiary goal, ultimate can
also benefit, then that will be an added bonus.

It appears from the article on the huddle that Conference1 is asking
for a lot from the UPA (legitimacy and legacy of the UPA name,
resources for determining eligibility, etc) but isn't offerring much
to the majority who play the sport. For all of its flaws the UPA
generally always has its members best interests in mind. These two
guys? I wouldn't trust them to give a shit about me or what's good
for the sport if their primary objective is to make money.

Chris Skipper
Bodhi #93
Tufts Alum
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2940 is a reply to message #2606] Wed, 15 October 2008 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
faddy
Messages: 310
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
boxing.

CART/IRL.

AFL/NFL.

ABA/NBA.

Majors/Negro leagues.


this has all been done before...


bfd
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2943 is a reply to message #2919] Wed, 15 October 2008 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Katherine Wooten
Messages: 9
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Let's just do a little math here, just for fun. Look at Trouble in
Vegas 2008 (College) alone:

96 teams
$25 (minimum) per player (after January 18 it was $35)

Let's say 20 players per team pay to play, and they all sign up on
time for the $25 fee:

96 x 20 x 25 = $48,000

Even if fields cost $10,000 and supplies cost another $5,000, Skip's
doing alright for himself. He clears $30,000+ for one weekend on
tournament fees alone. This doesn't even include the money from disc
and shirt sales. And how many tournaments is he running these days?
I don't think anyone needs to accuse Skip of eating Ramen.

Katherine
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2945 is a reply to message #2864] Wed, 15 October 2008 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerrod
Messages: 63
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 2:47 pm, Pete <hockeypeteschr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 25 teams is just too small. It would be the most limited championship
> in any collegiate sport, club or college. If they really wanted to
> test drive it, they need more teams. Would the argument be as vicious
> if the line had been drawn lower? If the argument wasn't "we won't
> take Arizona or North Texas" as opposed to "Which is going to be the
> last NW team, Whitman or Oregon State?" The reason the NCAA Basketball
> is the most legitimate championship is because the 66th team in really
> doesn't have as much reason to complain. The BCS gets complained about
> all the time, and this is more limiting than the BCS.

I think the idea of "Conference 1" is taking the sport of ultimate in
the right direction. It seems to me like the biggest issue people are
having is including the "fringe" non-Conference 1 teams into the
championship mix. I agree that this is a huge issue. I'm just going
to throw out some ideas that might make some sense for Skip to try
out.

I believe they did a relatively good job of picking their "Top 25."
Clearly you can make cases to include and exclude some of the these
teams that are chosen in this first year. However, the programs
picked have had a history of success over that last 5 years or so.
The first year doing this is going to be the most difficult, so I'll
cut them some slack on their choices.

If I read the information correctly it appears that each of the 25
"C1" teams are required to attend 5 tournaments. I'm not sure if a
couple tournaments have mandatory attendance for all "C1" teams.
However, at the tournaments that only have 10-15 "C1" teams, you can
fill the remaining places with the bids from the best out of
conference teams (all current 'big' tournaments are done like this
now). At these tournaments allow for teams to play up into the C1
bracket an fall down into the "lower" bracket. You can have the
winners of the "lower"bracket play the losers of the C1 bracket in a
cross-over. The winner gets to compete in the Conference 1 bracket on
Sunday. "Out of conference teams" gain points for playing up or
winning the lower brackets, while the C1 teams that drop lose points
or gain no points.

Deciding on a final championship tournament field: Lots of Options

1) I say you take the 5 C1 Region winners plus the next 9 best C1
teams (point system/overall record, whatever they use). Then you give
6 at large bids to the next 6 best teams based on the years results at
these Cultimate tournaments. These 6 teams automatically replace the
bottom 6 C1 teams at years end and will be in "conference 1" at the
beginning of the following year.

2) Better yet, to be more inclusive you invite the top 20 or so "non-
conference teams" to a Nationals Qualifying tournament and let them
battle it out for the final 6 spots. You can even include the teams
ranked 15-25 in "Conference 1" in this tournament and give them a shot
to prove they still belong with the "best." You'd have 30 or so teams
playing for 6 spots at the "conference 1 championship." Makes for
some good ultimate. Top 6 finishers make the tourney, top 10
finishers are the last members of "conference 1" for the next year.

Basically, I think this can be a great idea. However, it needs to be
more inclusive for the "fringe" teams. Many of the teams currently
not included deserve a chance to beat "the chosen" ones for the
National Championship. This should encourage people to still attend
the Cultimate tournaments because a birth to the title is still in
their grasp. Obviously, I'd have to look into this more and I'm just
making this up on the fly while bored at work, but I think a happy
medium can be found.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2963 is a reply to message #2911] Wed, 15 October 2008 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geary.tom
Messages: 2
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 1:30 pm, Jeff <Jffr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Due to Title IX and increasing pressure on athletic department
> budgets, Ultimate can really give up the idea of becoming an NCAA
> sport.
>

Actually, due to Title IX I think there is a good chance of ultimate
becoming an NCAA sport. Because of the way in which Title IX is
enforced, the number of women involved in intercollegiate athletics at
a particular school determines the number of scholarships available
for men at that school. So, for instance, it would be advantageous
for a D-I school with a big time football program to have women's
ultimate, because, under Title IX, they would be allowed to give out
more scholarships.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2968 is a reply to message #2945] Wed, 15 October 2008 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CDrebbel
Messages: 8
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
What rules are they playing by? 11th Edition? The rules set by the
body they are sort of upending??
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2973 is a reply to message #2677] Wed, 15 October 2008 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Douglas T Lilley
Messages: 674
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 9:07 am, Erik <ega...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 5:29 am, pooner <RyGuyB...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes in
>
> > > march madness you have the cindarella story but they are usually not a
> > > real contender for the national championship.
>
> > ...have absolutely no idea about how to implement it, but I wish
> > cultimate COULD pull off something like the NCAA tournament.  March
> > Madness is possibly the most thrilling college sports event of the
> > year; c'mon, how many people have filled out a bracket, guessed on
> > upsets, and watched where their money went, and enjoyed it?  and
> > cinderellas DO get their due in the tournament, although they rarely
> > take it ALL the way, but still beat the Floridas occasionally.  AND
> > there's usually a different champion every year.
>
> > still, have no idea how it would work, but it would give cultimate
> > something better to do than ruin ultimate for everyone else.
>
> > pooner
>
> Conference-1 would absolutely destroy many of the teams that aren't
> included in the competition.  The mountain of effort put in by my team
> to recruit for our A-team, build our B-team, and to become the most
> competitive team we can be this year, would be absolutely crushed by
> an illegitimate nationals championship.  Arizona didn't have an
> amazing 2008 season by luck; we set the team goal of becoming one of
> the best teams in the nation early in the Fall, and many on the team
> believed a National Championship was possible. We laid the foundation
> for our storybook season through week after week of intense
> practicing, track workouts, plyometrics and weightlifting.  Like every
> other year, we learned from our mistakes last year, and have
> significantly changed this year's program and renewed our motivation
> in an effort to do better.  I can't imagine other "non-elite" teams
> haven't experienced something similar, and I am incredibly honored
> whenever I meet players from those teams who are inspired by our
> underdog success.  There are many such teams who are training harder
> than they ever have before to get a chance to play at the highest
> level. To deny ANY team the chance to compete Nationally would be a
> tremendous blow to any team's competitive spirit, resulting in a whole
> lot of really bad ultimate teams.
>
> Not only will the 2009 season be thrown out the window to
> experimentation, but Conference-1 leaves our college season in the
> hands of a few people (who have a very large interest in money) rather
> than a democratically elected board.  Exactly how much are Skip, Cyle
> and 5-Ultimate going to make if this goes through?  Why should I
> entrust the future of college ultimate into two people's hands?  Are
> the current elite teams all that matter in competitive college
> ultimate?  Those "top" teams are the ones who stand to benefit from
> Conference-1, while any aspirations of other teams to become great
> turn into the impossible.  One of the most attractive aspects of
> playing Ultimate is that any team has a shot through dedication and
> smart training - Arizona is proof of that.  I have spent the last four
> years of my life with the help of many teammates and friends like Joe
> Kershner to build the most competitive ultimate team that I can with
> one holy grail in mind: to be the best.  The personal sacrifices that
> were required by Arizona players in the past, let alone already in
> this off season are immeasurable. Conference-1 would not only be a
> completely illegitimate championship considering every team in the
> Nation doesn't have a chance to compete, but would shatter the hearts
> of players and teams like mine.  Winning C-1, instead, would simply
> give that team a claim to "Being the best out of 25 teams that Skip
> and Cycle picked, plus one other one."  Doesn't quite have the same
> ring to it as National Champions.
>
> Erik Gafni
> 2008 Captain of Arizona
> #49-

Half the national tourney teams from C1, the other half from the rest
of the country. It ony seems fair. And congrats to the U of AZ guys,
great season last year and great example as to why you can't have all
(but one) the nationals teams from one chosen conference. I do think
the idea has some merits but it need to be finessed.
PS: My validation word was "hyment". That must mean something in the
context. Or maybe not.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2980 is a reply to message #2943] Wed, 15 October 2008 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daag Alemayehu
Messages: 249
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 5:46 pm, Katherine Wooten <katherine.woo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Let's say 20 players per team pay to play, and they all sign up on
> time for the $25 fee:
>
> 96 x 20 x 25 = $48,000
>
> Even if fields cost $10,000 and supplies cost another $5,000, Skip's
> doing alright for himself.   He clears $30,000+ for one weekend on
> tournament fees alone.  This doesn't even include the money from disc
> and shirt sales.   And how many tournaments is he running these days?
> I don't think anyone needs to accuse Skip of eating Ramen.
>
> Katherine

K-Woo,

I respect you and I respect your opinions, but I must respectfully say
that I think you're mistaken on this one. For starters, you're
leaving out other tournament costs, unless by "supplies" you meant
bagels, fruit, water, trainers, party location, security, beer, dinner
(if offered), party food (if offered), etc. $5,000 probably covers
all that, but we're admittedly not looking too closely at that.

Second, you have to remember Skip isn't doing this all by himself.
Cyle has to be paid I assume, plus for the tournaments Cultimate runs
in conjunction with college teams those teams are going to get a cut
of the profits. And we don't know what kind of cut they're getting -
could be 50%, could be 5%. I'd be willing to wager that it has to be
a big enough cut to make it worthwhile for them to give up hosting
their own tournaments. Cultimate also has partnerships with other
frisbee community institutions, so it wouldn't be too surprising if
they had to offer up a few thousand here or there to some of those
third parties.

Finally, Skip has been taking a lot of the money and reinvesting it in
his enterprise. Cultimate is several years old at ths point, but it
wasn't always this vast. They used to run just a couple of
tournaments and had a barebones website. These days cultimate.com is
full of slick graphics and is extremely well done. That doesn't come
cheap. Hosting doesn't come cheap either. Plus Cultimate owns a few
other websites; I know they own my old ulticentral.com domain name and
have future plans for expanding there. I'm not sure what the
relationship is between MSSUI and Cultimate, but I wouldn't be
surprised if Cultimate is bankrolling that site too.

I remember a couple of years ago I got a decent idea (from talking to
Skip himself) of how much money Skip was making off Cultimate, and
let's just say the comparisons to teachers and poor college students
eating Ramen weren't far off. Of course, that was years ago, and he
could be doing better for himself now, and all of this reinvesting of
capital could eventually produce big dividends. But I wouldn't look
at his high REVENUE and assume his PROFIT has to be high too.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2985 is a reply to message #2731] Wed, 15 October 2008 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bulb
Messages: 1093
Registered: September 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 11:40 am, CBrowning <cb.brown...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I only have 4-5 years to play college ultimate. I don't have time to
> > wait and see if this is a success or failure. I want all my games to
> > count for something not just a year or two's worth.
>
> I think that is the attitude that is going to kill this idea.  College
> players are not going to be willing to give up their limited years of
> eligibility to play in a start up system.  The risk is not worth it to
> them.  They do not want to suffer the growing pains now for a better
> product down the road, when they will not get the benefit of that
> better product.
>
> It's kind of lame, but I if I were in their shoes I am not sure I
> would think differently.
>
> Chris

(Just a heads up: If you refuse to admit any team from the Metro East
could beat any top 5 team from another region, you might as well skip
reading this.)

I played 5 years for Delaware, a program that had previously never won
a Sectional title, let alone contend for a spot to Nationals. We
worked our asses off during the 2003-2004 season, both physically and
mentally. We traveled to high quality tournaments (albeit only those
within driving distance) and drove 20 minutes on weeknights to use a
lit field, just so we could have practices that everyone could make.
We earned the Regional title that year with our sweat and blood, and
since then Delaware has made Nationals 3 out of 4 years.

The point is, we only needed one breakout season to become a perennial
contender for a bid to Nationals. Although 2004 Delaware did not
achieve the success Arizona did at 2008 Nationals, I consider the two
situations similar, and would not be surprised to see Arizona become a
Regional powerhouse in the Southwest, year after year. Who's to say
who the next team ready to break out will be?

With the way Conference1 is structured, it will take more than a
single year to make that leap from mediocrity. And given that
eligibility is an issue in college, 2+ years is too long for some
teams to make that jump. Teams need to play OTHER teams at the elite
level to attain that level of play. They can't sit around playing
other mediocre teams and expect to get recognition on the National
level. I would be in favor of a tiered system, determined by
tournament placement and not by a scoring algorithm or selection
panel, and that leaves room for teamS (not just one) to have a
breakout season on the National scale.

Financial gain aside, Conference1 has some merit, but also has a lot
of kinks. But if the guys behind the curtain act fast enough, those
kinks could get worked out for the 2009 college season.

Bulb
#21 Delaware, 2003-2007
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3009 is a reply to message #2916] Wed, 15 October 2008 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 4:49 pm, bww <wietgr...@wisc.edu> wrote:

> Same goes for Michigan, they lost Will Neff right?

No.

> Do they deserve to be there?

Based on their long history of ~9th place National finishes, probably.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3019 is a reply to message #3009] Wed, 15 October 2008 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shabadoo
Messages: 15
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
My misgivings aside, one thing I have to say in support of cultimate
is that the fact that they are a profit agency is a GOOD thing. We
don't live under communism. In fact, from what I remember of 8th
grade business, our economy is based on the profit motive. Obviously
our economy is running completely smoothly so that's good. Seriously
though, Skip and Cyle's livelihoods depend on cultimate's success. If
they don't deliver a superior product, teams will leave and go back to
the UPA after a year and they're back to begging in the streets for
gambling money. I imagine they are both working 50-60 hour
weeks(probably a lot more this month) completely focusing on making
cultimate as big of a success as possible. While I'm not completely
on board with them yet, I admire their dedication and hope that they
listen to the suggestions everyone is giving.

After thinking about it for a couple of days; my vote for this year is
to put in the top two teams from each region plus the next two best
records for a total of 12 teams. This leaves four spots for wildcards
and a 16 team Nationals, which I think is solid format for the first
year. There is absolutely no way that this transition will be 100%
smooth the first year whether it's cultimate or the UPA running it.
For the future, I can't see a better solution than putting in C2 and
C3 with relegation. I like Jerrod's idea of teams getting a chance to
play to keep their spot. As an example, if Kansas finishes last in
the C1 Southwest and UNT finishes 1st in C2 Southwest, let them play
heads up for the C1 spot. Same would go for C2/C3. There are two
easy to spot problems with this. One, it's tough to get two teams to
drive somewhere for one game; and you would need referees for it.
However, if you do a tournament like Jerrod suggested; your divisions
become unbalanced. Though unlikely, you could end up with 8 teams
from Oregon/Washington and zero from all of New England. Second
problem, there are more than 75 teams in college ultimate, and I don't
see cultimate having the resources to keep track of C7 in the near
future, not to mention the female conferences.

I'm also making this up as I go and am now cutting myself off.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3040 is a reply to message #3019] Wed, 15 October 2008 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryan Thompson
Messages: 364
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 6:16 pm, Shabadoo <Joseph.Hueger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My misgivings aside, one thing I have to say in support of cultimate
> is that the fact that they are a profit agency is a GOOD thing.  We
> don't live under communism.  In fact, from what I remember of 8th
> grade business, our economy is based on the profit motive. Obviously
> our economy is running completely smoothly so that's good.  Seriously
> though, Skip and Cyle's livelihoods depend on cultimate's success.  If
> they don't deliver a superior product, teams will leave and go back to
> the UPA after a year and they're back to begging in the streets for
> gambling money.  I imagine they are both working 50-60 hour
> weeks(probably a lot more this month) completely focusing on making
> cultimate as big of a success as possible.  While I'm not completely
> on board with them yet, I admire their dedication and hope that they
> listen to the suggestions everyone is giving.
>
> After thinking about it for a couple of days; my vote for this year is
> to put in the top two teams from each region plus the next two best
> records for a total of 12 teams.  This leaves four spots for wildcards
> and a 16 team Nationals, which I think is solid format for the first
> year.  There is absolutely no way that this transition will be 100%
> smooth the first year whether it's cultimate or the UPA running it.
> For the future, I can't see a better solution than putting in C2 and
> C3 with relegation.  I like Jerrod's idea of teams getting a chance to
> play to keep their spot.  As an example, if Kansas finishes last in
> the C1 Southwest and UNT finishes 1st in C2 Southwest, let them play
> heads up for the C1 spot.  Same would go for C2/C3.  There are two
> easy to spot problems with this.  One, it's tough to get two teams to
> drive somewhere for one game; and you would need referees for it.
> However, if you do a tournament like Jerrod suggested; your divisions
> become unbalanced.  Though unlikely, you could end up with 8 teams
> from Oregon/Washington and zero from all of New England.  Second
> problem, there are more than 75 teams in college ultimate, and I don't
> see cultimate having the resources to keep track of C7 in the near
> future, not to mention the female conferences.
>
> I'm also making this up as I go and am now cutting myself off.

Cultimate tournaments will have C1 and non-C1 divisions, and doing
well in non-C1 play provides a ranking metric for teams to get play-in
invites.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3043 is a reply to message #3019] Wed, 15 October 2008 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
aengel
Messages: 3
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Elite teams whether it be Club or College attend tournament that other
elite teams attend. Look at the pools from all of the elite
tournaments and count how many non national contenders are in the
pools with the elite. Then count how many upsets happened relative to
how many didn't. At Sectionals/Regionals non elite teams look forward
to playing the elite teams in hopes of pulling the upset or at the
very least getting a facebook picture of them skying someone wearing
an elite team jersey. These games are just another chance for a season
ending injury. Point: Games that don't challenge players and push them
to improve are a waste of time and effort for everyone involved.

For all of the teams that are "snubbed"/left out of conference1. What
do you have to complain about? Chances are last year in the series you
fell short by a bid or two of going to nationals. Teams that finished
in the middle of the pack at regionals should now be thinking they
have a realistic shot at Nattionals. Call an extra practice a week, do
work, and get your ass to nationals. If you're in the central region,
you now have 3 bids to go to Nationals since the top 3 teams going to
conference1. Do you think teams that play in the non BCS bowls play
less intense than the teams playing in the BCS Championship Bowl?
Point: The Venue doesn't change the fact that you're still playing
ultimate with your team for the championship. If you let it change
that, you're insulting all the work your team has put it throughout
the year.

There's still much information that cu1timate hasn't released and
probably even more that they haven't worked out yet. There are going
to be kinks and its not going to be perfect. Its comical that so many
people cry for ultimate to be a legitimate sport and the second that
anyone follows through on an idea, theres a huge backlash.

-Sticky
#20 UW-Milwaukee
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3052 is a reply to message #3043] Wed, 15 October 2008 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tal1286
Messages: 25
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
> There's still much information that cu1timate hasn't released and
> probably even more that they haven't worked out yet. There are going
> to be kinks and its not going to be perfect. Its comical that so many
> people cry for ultimate to be a legitimate sport and the second that
> anyone follows through on an idea, theres a huge backlash.
>
> -Sticky
> #20 UW-Milwaukee

"probably even more that they haven't worked out yet. There are going
to be kinks and its not going to be perfect."

One would hope that a company putting together a massive initiative
like this one would have planned things out and known the answers to
every last question that anybody could ask before expecting college
teams to hand them the keys to their season.

It certainly seems like they are flying by the seat of their pants and
have been very irresponsible with their presentation and failure to
work with the established entity of the UPA.

Conference 1 could work, but it could just as easily be a spectacular
failure. I wouldn't claim to know what is going to happen, but it
seems that Cultimate could have done a much better job of presenting
this

There's your backlash, Sticky.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3053 is a reply to message #2668] Wed, 15 October 2008 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jake Bradley
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 3:25 am, Axl <Layoutpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Conference 1 is an absolutely necessary and remarkable step for
> Ultimate. Congratulations to Cultimate, specifically Skip and Cyle,
> for being the revolutionary leader of one biggest and most significant
> steps Ultimate has ever taken. Ever since I started playing Ultimate 5
> years ago it has been extremely frustrating to see Ultimate in such a
> state of relative stagnation. I almost always get the same general
> response when I tell people I play Ultiamte, “What’s that?” or “Oh,
> that game where you throw the frisbee at a basket?”. As a player who
> takes significant pride in increasing athletic ability and pushing
> myself to my limits it is so frustrating that the awareness of what
> Ultimate truly is has not come anywhere close to its potential. I
> spend literally 3 hours in the gym everyday and I eat 4800 calories a
> day, sticking to a strict diet of 8 meals a day all to become the best
> player I can possibly be. Conference 1 is the answer to the serious
> athlete’s prayers for higher quality Ultimate. Conference 1 sets the
> new generation of Ultimate apart. Conference 1 dramatically increases
> the sport’s legitimacy and potential for growth.
>
> For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
> should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
> all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
> success of Conference 1 skyrockets.
>
> We, as a Ultimate community, are now so much closer to becoming a
> legitimate sport. We can now attract more athletes and there is no
> limit to the level of play that will follow. There will always be pick-
> up Ultimate around the country, people will still find Ultimate in the
> same sorts that many of us did. The only difference is that now there
> is a clear, definite, stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment
> set in place that will promote the growth and furthering of the game
> in a totally new way.
>
> Cultimate has already proven its abilities is setting up and running
> the best tournaments. There is absolutely no authentic reason not to
> trust that they will only that that to the next level with the
> expansion of their program.
>
> Thank you Cultimate. Thank you Conference 1. Thank you Cyle. Thank you
> Skip.
>
> Axl
> 15
> Kansas Ultimate

I agree that high level ultimate players are not viewed as serious
athletes by the majority of the general public. However Cultimate's
solution, to me, completely tears out the core of what "high level"
competition is. In any major sport even lower level teams get an equal
opportunity to compete. I know there has been discussion of expanding
to many more teams but this is college ultimate, a one season
experiment is a quarter of a players career...

And I am sure everyone is impressed that you work out 3 hours a day
and you feel C1 is your ticket to becoming ultimate's T.O. The biggest
reason you are all about C1 is probably the fact that you don't have
to worry about playing "lower level" competition, when the truth is
your team managed to finish 7th at regionals last year behind 5 non C1
teams. So I don't know how you can say that C1 is "clear, definite,
stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment" when a detailed plan
has not actually been presented and the selected teams are a biased
view of the best. Yea, sure, its an exciting proposition but it would
completely dismantle the competitive nature that legitimate sports
embrace, at least for this college season.

My focus is on making sure that my team has the opportunity to compete
with the best in the country.

So coming from a guy that is too much of a hot shot to stand in his
own team huddles, I do not find that your arguement convincingly
defends the integrity of Ultimate and elite competition, I would be
careful when jumping on board with the quick solution to a much more
complicated problem.

Even the Rays got to play the Yankees.

Jake Bradley
Iowa Ultimate, #2
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3054 is a reply to message #3040] Wed, 15 October 2008 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daag Alemayehu
Messages: 249
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 10:35 pm, Ryan Thompson <thomp...@stanford.edu> wrote:
> Cultimate tournaments will have C1 and non-C1 divisions, and doing
> well in non-C1 play provides a ranking metric for teams to get play-in
> invites.- Hide quoted text -

So for non-C1 teams, is doing well at a Cultimate tournament the ONLY
thing that matters or will Cultimate be taking into account non-C1
teams' performances at non-Cultimate tournaments too (especially if
there are other big non-Cultimate tournaments)?
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3064 is a reply to message #2668] Wed, 15 October 2008 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jake Bradley
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 3:25 am, Axl <Layoutpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Conference 1 is an absolutely necessary and remarkable step for
> Ultimate. Congratulations to Cultimate, specifically Skip and Cyle,
> for being the revolutionary leader of one biggest and most significant
> steps Ultimate has ever taken. Ever since I started playing Ultimate 5
> years ago it has been extremely frustrating to see Ultimate in such a
> state of relative stagnation. I almost always get the same general
> response when I tell people I play Ultiamte, “What’s that?” or “Oh,
> that game where you throw the frisbee at a basket?”. As a player who
> takes significant pride in increasing athletic ability and pushing
> myself to my limits it is so frustrating that the awareness of what
> Ultimate truly is has not come anywhere close to its potential. I
> spend literally 3 hours in the gym everyday and I eat 4800 calories a
> day, sticking to a strict diet of 8 meals a day all to become the best
> player I can possibly be. Conference 1 is the answer to the serious
> athlete’s prayers for higher quality Ultimate. Conference 1 sets the
> new generation of Ultimate apart. Conference 1 dramatically increases
> the sport’s legitimacy and potential for growth.
>
> For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
> should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
> all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
> success of Conference 1 skyrockets.
>
> We, as a Ultimate community, are now so much closer to becoming a
> legitimate sport. We can now attract more athletes and there is no
> limit to the level of play that will follow. There will always be pick-
> up Ultimate around the country, people will still find Ultimate in the
> same sorts that many of us did. The only difference is that now there
> is a clear, definite, stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment
> set in place that will promote the growth and furthering of the game
> in a totally new way.
>
> Cultimate has already proven its abilities is setting up and running
> the best tournaments. There is absolutely no authentic reason not to
> trust that they will only that that to the next level with the
> expansion of their program.
>
> Thank you Cultimate. Thank you Conference 1. Thank you Cyle. Thank you
> Skip.
>
> Axl
> 15
> Kansas Ultimate

I agree that high level ultimate players are not viewed as serious
athletes by the majority of the general public. However Cultimate's
solution, to me, completely tears out the core of what "high level"
competition is. In any major sport even lower level teams get an equal
opportunity to compete. I know there has been discussion of expanding
to many more teams but this is college ultimate, a one season
experiment is a quarter of a players career...

And I am sure everyone is impressed that you work out 3 hours a day
and you feel C1 is your ticket to becoming ultimate's T.O. The biggest
reason you are all about C1 is probably the fact that you don't have
to worry about playing "lower level" competition, when the truth is
your team managed to finish 7th at regionals last year behind 5 non C1
teams. So I don't know how you can say that C1 is "clear, definite,
stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment" when a detailed plan
has not actually been presented and the selected teams are a biased
view of the best. Yea, sure, its an exciting proposition but it would
completely dismantle the competitive nature that legitimate sports
embrace, at least for this college season.

My focus is on making sure that my team has the opportunity to compete
with the best in the country.

So coming from a guy that is too much of a hot shot to stand in his
own team huddles, I do not find that your arguement convincingly
defends the integrity of Ultimate and elite competition, I would be
careful when jumping on board with the quick solution to a much more
complicated problem.

Even the Rays got to play the Yankees.

Jake Bradley
Iowa Ultimate, #2
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3069 is a reply to message #2916] Wed, 15 October 2008 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rufio
Messages: 26
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
> Same goes for the Hodags, they lost a LOT of guys from the last 2
> years.  Do they deserve to be there?
> Same goes for Michigan, they lost Will Neff right?  Do they deserve to
> be there?
> Same goes for Stanford, they had a down year, and lost Sherwood didnt
> they? Do they deserve to be there?

michigan did not lose Will Neff. They belong in the top 25. They are
certainly not the most questionable pick. That is coming from someone
who tried not to purchase anything in michigan and would have gladly
stayed at a hotel in Toledo, woken up early, and driven to the Detroit
Polo fields, ann arbor, etc. for tournaments.

Stanford's "down year" included scoring more than anyone else against
the Hodags at Nationals.

Wisconsin has lost "a lot" of guys for several years now, and they
even lost "a lot" of games (for them) at Centex last year, but they
just keep playing on Sunday at Nationals.

Maybe your point was that everyone on that list is questionable.
After all, 1 seeds lose all the time in March Madness. If so, good
point.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3092 is a reply to message #2919] Wed, 15 October 2008 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
morfin
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2008
Member
Who the fuck do you think you are? You call yourself Muff? You need to
go muff yourself. I will elabiaorape your eyelids with my
emuffsculate. If my muffalatta is as muffy as your muffkin I will
morfin my Voldermuff until we oatwheat your bran muffin.
Jerkin' it,
Morfkin
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #3093 is a reply to message #2668] Wed, 15 October 2008 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
hbrumby
Messages: 51
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 3:25 am, Axl <Layoutpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Conference 1 is an absolutely necessary and remarkable step for
> Ultimate. Congratulations to Cultimate, specifically Skip and Cyle,
> for being the revolutionary leader of one biggest and most significant
> steps Ultimate has ever taken. Ever since I started playing Ultimate 5
> years ago it has been extremely frustrating to see Ultimate in such a
> state of relative stagnation. I almost always get the same general
> response when I tell people I play Ultiamte, “What’s that?” or “Oh,
> that game where you throw the frisbee at a basket?”. As a player who
> takes significant pride in increasing athletic ability and pushing
> myself to my limits it is so frustrating that the awareness of what
> Ultimate truly is has not come anywhere close to its potential. I
> spend literally 3 hours in the gym everyday and I eat 4800 calories a
> day, sticking to a strict diet of 8 meals a day all to become the best
> player I can possibly be. Conference 1 is the answer to the serious
> athlete’s prayers for higher quality Ultimate. Conference 1 sets the
> new generation of Ultimate apart. Conference 1 dramatically increases
> the sport’s legitimacy and potential for growth.
>
> For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
> should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
> all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
> success of Conference 1 skyrockets.
>
> We, as a Ultimate community, are now so much closer to becoming a
> legitimate sport. We can now attract more athletes and there is no
> limit to the level of play that will follow. There will always be pick-
> up Ultimate around the country, people will still find Ultimate in the
> same sorts that many of us did. The only difference is that now there
> is a clear, definite, stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment
> set in place that will promote the growth and furthering of the game
> in a totally new way.
>
> Cultimate has already proven its abilities is setting up and running
> the best tournaments. There is absolutely no authentic reason not to
> trust that they will only that that to the next level with the
> expansion of their program.
>
> Thank you Cultimate. Thank you Conference 1. Thank you Cyle. Thank you
> Skip.
>
> Axl
> 15
> Kansas Ultimate

I hope this post is some kind of joke, but parts of it actually sound
serious...
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