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Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2606] Tue, 14 October 2008 20:47 Go to next message
daze
Messages: 36
Registered: September 2008
Member
http://www.the-huddle.org/

After reading this I could not believe what their plans are. By
taking the top 25 teams out of the mix, aren't they stopping
cinderella stories like the University of Arizona last year. What if,
in the pre-season, college football picked their top 25, and that was
it, you could never get in, regardless of your play? How do they
decide the teams? Is it from results last year? What if a team
looses a lot of their talent from the previous year when they did well
at nationals? I know a lot of young teams marvel at playing/watching
top tier teams at tournaments, isn't this taking away from some of
those teams. Don't the other 450+ teams that play Ultimate become
irrelevant? Lots of questions, anyone have answers? I played 5
years of college ultimate, I hope this does not go through.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2609 is a reply to message #2606] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manzell
Messages: 145
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 14, 11:47 pm, daze <ausn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.the-huddle.org/
>
> After reading this I could not believe what their plans are.  By
> taking the top 25 teams out of the mix, aren't they stopping
> cinderella stories like the University of Arizona last year.  What if,
> in the pre-season, college football picked their top 25, and that was
> it, you could never get in, regardless of your play?  How do they
> decide the teams?  Is it from results last year?  What if a team
> looses a lot of their talent from the previous year when they did well
> at nationals?  I know a lot of young teams marvel at playing/watching
> top tier teams at tournaments, isn't this taking away from some of
> those teams.  Don't the other 450+ teams that play Ultimate become
> irrelevant?   Lots of questions, anyone have answers?  I played 5
> years of college ultimate, I hope this does not go through.

I'm withholding judgement. We haven't really heard from the UPA, or
Skip for that matter. Nor have we heard from the 'RSD legends' like
Gerics or, I hate to say it, Toad. I'd be really interested to hear
what some old school guys think and what non-Sockeye elite club guys
think. The Huddle is friends with Skip, so I don't really know if
we're getting their true opinion on the matter.

My guess, the UPA will proceed cautiously and continue to run the
series as they have in the past. I don't expect them to come out (on
RSD) against C1 or bar C1 teams from the series. Elite level teams
will also proceed cautiously, signing up for C1 but also getting their
UPA rosters in by the deadline. Mid-level teams (top 8 at regionals)
will desperately want in, some will be accepted and some will regret
it when their season is effectively over after putting up a 1-6
weekend in mid-April.

A question - does Florida-B (or Florida-X) get to play in the UPA
series? What happens when some (all) of their top players appear on
the B roster?

- MRB
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2611 is a reply to message #2609] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rchard
Messages: 35
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 12:09 am, Manzell <manz...@reaxion.org> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 11:47 pm, daze <ausn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.the-huddle.org/
>
> > After reading this I could not believe what their plans are. By
> > taking the top 25 teams out of the mix, aren't they stopping
> > cinderella stories like the University of Arizona last year. What if,
> > in the pre-season, college football picked their top 25, and that was
> > it, you could never get in, regardless of your play? How do they
> > decide the teams? Is it from results last year? What if a team
> > looses a lot of their talent from the previous year when they did well
> > at nationals? I know a lot of young teams marvel at playing/watching
> > top tier teams at tournaments, isn't this taking away from some of
> > those teams. Don't the other 450+ teams that play Ultimate become
> > irrelevant? Lots of questions, anyone have answers? I played 5
> > years of college ultimate, I hope this does not go through.
>
> I'm withholding judgement. We haven't really heard from the UPA, or
> Skip for that matter. Nor have we heard from the 'RSD legends' like
> Gerics or, I hate to say it, Toad. I'd be really interested to hear
> what some old school guys think and what non-Sockeye elite club guys
> think. The Huddle is friends with Skip, so I don't really know if
> we're getting their true opinion on the matter.
>
> My guess, the UPA will proceed cautiously and continue to run the
> series as they have in the past. I don't expect them to come out (on
> RSD) against C1 or bar C1 teams from the series. Elite level teams
> will also proceed cautiously, signing up for C1 but also getting their
> UPA rosters in by the deadline. Mid-level teams (top 8 at regionals)
> will desperately want in, some will be accepted and some will regret
> it when their season is effectively over after putting up a 1-6
> weekend in mid-April.
>
> A question - does Florida-B (or Florida-X) get to play in the UPA
> series? What happens when some (all) of their top players appear on
> the B roster?
>
> - MRB

so does this mean those top 14 teams do not compete in the UPA series,
and do not go to the UPA championship???? i dont know about this
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2612 is a reply to message #2606] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clrydin
Messages: 30
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 14, 10:47 pm, daze <ausn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.the-huddle.org/
>
> After reading this I could not believe what their plans are.  By
> taking the top 25 teams out of the mix, aren't they stopping
> cinderella stories like the University of Arizona last year.  What if,
> in the pre-season, college football picked their top 25, and that was
> it, you could never get in, regardless of your play?  How do they
> decide the teams?  Is it from results last year?  What if a team
> looses a lot of their talent from the previous year when they did well
> at nationals?  I know a lot of young teams marvel at playing/watching
> top tier teams at tournaments, isn't this taking away from some of
> those teams.  Don't the other 450+ teams that play Ultimate become
> irrelevant?   Lots of questions, anyone have answers?  I played 5
> years of college ultimate, I hope this does not go through.

I agree... the talent level from year to year for college ultimate
teams can change so dramatically that choosing the top 25 teams based
on the previous years results is unreasonable. The play in spot that
they have proposed is a joke as well, it is far to difficult to
accurately choose the top 2 teams out of a huge pool because teams
don't play similar schedules, not to mention the huge disadvantage
they will be at for not playing the "elite" teams week after week.

While I'm sure new rivalries will be formed, a lot of old rivalries
will be lost. More teams need to be included, because from year to
year new great teams are found, and "elite" teams have off years. if
cultimate puts 8-10 teams per division, with the bottom two at the end
of the season falling out, and two new teams replacing them... I would
consider this much more valuable to college ultimate.

with 8-10 teams per division, these are (for the most part) still very
competitive games, and ultimate would grow on a much larger scale.

-Casey
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2613 is a reply to message #2609] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rchard
Messages: 35
Registered: October 2008
Member
there are implementing a ref system?? i kind of like that
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2614 is a reply to message #2606] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scoop
Messages: 76
Registered: September 2008
Member
They're trying to scare the UPA into giving them a contract to run the
series. If they actually try to pull this off beyond that, i predict
one of two outcomes.

1. Unmitigated failure.
2. Muddled, split failure that hurts the UPA, while costing them a
bunch of money.

From a ruthless capitalist perspective, it's not a bad play-- i
suspect that while they've done ok financially out of the tournaments
they've run, it hasn't been enough to fill up a 401k, keep a
moderately hot girlfriend in Chanel, or free them from the prospect of
getting a "real" job. So their options to make a real going concern
out of this (and to feed Cyle's gambling habit) are either to:

1. Branch out into other event-management businesses (lots of
competition, lowish margins, no particular reason to think they could
make it)
OR.
2. Create a captive market.

If the UPA handles this all very badly, they could win... so what has
Cultimate got to lose? People might say mean things about them? They
clearly don't care about that. If they crap out, it's off to actuarial
school or televangelism or whatever. So, they might as well roll the
dice.

But 1 will get you 4 they fail.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2615 is a reply to message #2606] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Dick Formerly Kno
Messages: 189
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
I too am deeply concerned with such a development. As a player from a
"second-tier" university (my team always makes and competes at
regionals, but currently has no aim at nationals), I enjoy getting the
opportunity to play top-level schools. This takes away much of the
fun and competition of national tournaments and playing other schools,
at least for me.

My one note of hope in all this is that Cultimate currently mentions
nothing of Conference 1 on its website. I would think that such
breaking news would be all over their website. Is this all
speculation? I hope so, even if Brodie Smith says otherwise.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2616 is a reply to message #2615] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scoop
Messages: 76
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 12:17 am, The Dick Formerly Known As Dennis
<isar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I too am deeply concerned with such a development. As a player from a
> "second-tier" university (my team always makes and competes at
> regionals, but currently has no aim at nationals), I enjoy getting the
> opportunity to play top-level schools.  This takes away much of the
> fun and competition of national tournaments and playing other schools,
> at least for me.
>
> My one note of hope in all this is that Cultimate currently mentions
> nothing of Conference 1 on its website.  I would think that such
> breaking news would be all over their website. Is this all
> speculation?  I hope so, even if Brodie Smith says otherwise.

Maybe this is all a big troll by Ben? Don't know the fellow really,
but that doesn't strike me as his style.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2617 is a reply to message #2615] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clrydin
Messages: 30
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 14, 11:17 pm, The Dick Formerly Known As Dennis
<isar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I too am deeply concerned with such a development. As a player from a
> "second-tier" university (my team always makes and competes at
> regionals, but currently has no aim at nationals), I enjoy getting the
> opportunity to play top-level schools.  This takes away much of the
> fun and competition of national tournaments and playing other schools,
> at least for me.
>
> My one note of hope in all this is that Cultimate currently mentions
> nothing of Conference 1 on its website.  I would think that such
> breaking news would be all over their website. Is this all
> speculation?  I hope so, even if Brodie Smith says otherwise.

http://cultimate.com/conference1/
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2618 is a reply to message #2616] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bert
Messages: 2
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 14, 9:19 pm, scoop <bali_ultim...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 12:17 am, The Dick Formerly Known As Dennis
>
> <isar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I too am deeply concerned with such a development. As a player from a
> > "second-tier" university (my team always makes and competes at
> > regionals, but currently has no aim at nationals), I enjoy getting the
> > opportunity to play top-level schools.  This takes away much of the
> > fun and competition of national tournaments and playing other schools,
> > at least for me.
>
> > My one note of hope in all this is that Cultimate currently mentions
> > nothing of Conference 1 on its website.  I would think that such
> > breaking news would be all over their website. Is this all
> > speculation?  I hope so, even if Brodie Smith says otherwise.
>
> Maybe this is all a big troll by Ben? Don't know the fellow really,
> but that doesn't strike me as his style.

http://cultimate.com/conference1
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2619 is a reply to message #2609] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mimmo
Messages: 587
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 14, 9:09 pm, Manzell <manz...@reaxion.org> wrote:

> A question - does Florida-B (or Florida-X) get to play in the UPA
> series? What happens when some (all) of their top players appear on
> the B roster?
>
>  - MRB
Does playing in this exclude them from playing in the series?

Why wouldn't they just play as regular Florida?
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2620 is a reply to message #2617] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ilikedisc
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
"So their options to make a real going concern
out of this (and to feed Cyle's gambling habit) are either to..."

Do you enjoy ripping people you've never even gotten to know? Does it
make you feel good about yourself to doubt something or someone when
you clearly don't have anywhere near all the information?

While the Conference 1 website does leave more questions than answers,
it does say that C1 will be run in conjunction with other tournaments,
so other teams will still be playing at these tournaments, and it
talks about a playoff between the top two non conference 1 teams, so
presumably there is another division of some sort that is being formed
for teams that arent conference 1.

The UPA series was a stagnant and outdated system that rewarded where
you live more than talent. It's about time someone at least tried to
take ultimate to the next level.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2622 is a reply to message #2620] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scoop
Messages: 76
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 15, 12:29 am, iliked...@gmail.com wrote:
> "So their options to make a real going concern
> out of this (and to feed Cyle's gambling habit) are either to..."
>
> Do you enjoy ripping people you've never even gotten to know?
O yes, O God yes.

Do you think it wise to put your faith in a man who stole from his own
teammates? I mean, I've done plenty of things I'm ashamed of, but...
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2623 is a reply to message #2612] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MrPinto
Messages: 601
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 14, 9:13 pm, clry...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I agree... the talent level from year to year for college ultimate
> teams can change so dramatically that choosing the top 25 teams based
> on the previous years results is unreasonable.

Word. Promotion/Relegation makes sense on the club scene because the
rosters have more overlap over the years. Promotion/Relegation would
also be better based on the most recent season's results, but
cultimate obviously has excluded some nationals participants from last
year even quarterfinalists.

The concerns that Brodie voices are legit: Florida isn't well served
by spending time and money romping through sectionals, Centex is far
away, etc. I'm not sure however that this is the solution. If
conferences are desired, use existing NCAA conferences, use existing
UPA regions, whatever. Have a regular season, sure, but throw
everyone in there and take the top finishers for the playoffs, same as
every other sport (presumably this would break cultimate's tourney fee/
uniform sponsorship bank). The top 25 promotion will fall on its face
as soon as folks realize that each year a few of the "top" teams will
be rebuilding after graduating half their starters. Controversy
ensues when some of the "elite" teams are getting smoked while non-
promoted teams peak...

> While I'm sure new rivalries will be formed, a lot of old rivalries
> will be lost.

This is another good point. There are traditional ultimate
powerhouses that aren't a force on the basketball/football scene and
as such aren't involved in the rivalries of other sports. Black Tide
and CUT have rivalries for example that their schools' soccer teams
don't, for example.

Altogether, this seems to be a rather hastily constructed project.
The issues that they're seeking to address are real, but this doesn't
look like the best way to go about it. Certainly the Toad's of the
world will enjoy the angle of feuding with the UPA, but is this really
productive?

~p
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2625 is a reply to message #2622] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
youreanidiot17
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 12:35 am, scoop <bali_ultim...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Do you think it wise to put your faith in a man who stole from his own
> teammates? I mean, I've done plenty of things I'm ashamed of, but...


His teammates got over it (and clearly support his current efforts),
so maybe you should shut the fuck up.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2626 is a reply to message #2623] Tue, 14 October 2008 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shabadoo
Messages: 15
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 14, 11:35 pm, scoop <bali_ultim...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 12:29 am, iliked...@gmail.com wrote:> "So their options to make a real going concern
> > out of this (and to feed Cyle's gambling habit) are either to..."
>
> > Do you enjoy ripping people you've never even gotten to know?
>
> O yes, O God yes.
>
> Do you think it wise to put your faith in a man who stole from his own
> teammates? I mean, I've done plenty of things I'm ashamed of, but...

Seriously, do you somehow not enjoy 'ripping people' that you don't
know?

I agree that this is a positive step to legitimize the sport. I love
SOTG as much as the next guy, but a self-officiated sport will never
be seen as a real sport by outsiders. Elite level play has needed
refs ever since I started playing six years ago, probably much
longer. Of course, that isn't important to everyone; but for those
who it is important to, why not let them have an elite league that
should get better press coverage? Maybe they'll actually do away with
the ridiculous avoid contact at all costs rules.

I don't see why these teams aren't allowed to play non-C1 teams
though. Can't they just play them and have it not count on their
record? CBS teams can play CFS teams but can only count one victory
every four years towards bowl eligibility. What's to stop a C1 team
from playing other local teams and just not reporting the score? Can
someone play on a college team, but still go to club tournaments in
the spring? How will you stop them from it? If the UPA doesn't
cooperate with you, how will you determine college eligibility?

Seriously, you really put Cyle in charge of this thing? I've never
met the guy and don't need to in order to know not to trust him. The
man stole money from his own teammates. I don't care what he's done
before or after that. Someone actually decided to put me in a
position where I'm allowed to hire and fire people. If you think for
one second that I would hire someone who has a history of stealing
from his old company, you're insane. Now you want to put him in
charge of the operation? I'll put it in terms Cyle can understand(or
maybe not, as apparently he was a bad gambler), right now Obama is
paying -525 to win the presidency. If it came out that he had stolen
thousands of dollars from his family and lost it gambling just two or
three years ago; he would drop to about +800 immediately.


Joey #42
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2628 is a reply to message #2626] Tue, 14 October 2008 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pete
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
There are a number of concerning aspects to this proposal, and I would
like to hear Cultimate address them.

1. The exclusion of so many teams, and the apparently strict nature of
scheduling.

Yes, the sectional/regional format is unwieldy and difficult to
handle. Yes, it dilutes the games that the "D-I" schools play. That
said, five four to six team conferences? So Wisconsin is "not allowed"
to play Wisconsin-Whitewater or Iowa, Stanford is "not allowed" to
play UCLA, Oregon is "not allowed" to play Washington? I could go on
and on. That would easily make this the most restrictive scheduling in
college sports, varsity or club. Furthermore, I feel that programs
like Arizona, North Texas, Williams, Cornell, Dartmouth, and many
others are being left out decidedly too easily.

2. The format

So these "elite" tournaments will crossover with existing tournaments,
or will be their own little tournaments, or what? How do we decide who
goes to Nationals? And furthermore, I take issue with 13 teams out of
25 qualifying, while 1 out of everyone else qualifies. That makes the
BCS look positively inclusionary. (10 spots for 69 teams, with an
option for others to the rest.) I understand that this "experiment"
probably needs a small test group, but really that small?

3. The dangers of failure

Anybody remember what happens to hockey when they canceled the
2004-2005 season. No one cared anymore. Could the same thing happen to
college ultimate, particularly at the mid-levels, the teams that would
then be left to play for a diminished UPA championship? What to those
teams really have to play for anymore other than the NIT of frisbee?
Or worse, if a handful of teams do Conference1, they try anyway, we
have a split champion, the same thing that left college football fans
in an uproar. It could set back ultimate if handled poorly.

4. Eligibility concerns

Is Cultimate prepared to deal with college admissions offices, and all
the rest of things that the UPA has to handle, to make sure that teams
aren't using ineligible players. They could be, and I don't know, but
if not, it could be a scandal-ridded test year.

5. Women's ultimate

Do they have a plan to have a Women's Conference 1? Otherwise it's
actually taking a step away from varsity status, since Title IX would
be a factor. It also could potentially leave a diminished stage for
the women, if the UPA Men's Championship carries on sans the
Conference1 teams.

I would like to hear these addressed by the Cultimate folk.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2633 is a reply to message #2628] Tue, 14 October 2008 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
luke
Messages: 293
Registered: October 2008
Location: Chicago
Senior Member
many of your questions are answered in the full article available on
the huddle in their detailed breakdown:

http://www.the-huddle.org/features/conference-1/a-detailed-b reakdown/
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2634 is a reply to message #2628] Tue, 14 October 2008 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
In response to The Huddle's take on Conference 1:

"This is similar to the competitive model that we believe the UPA
Strategic Planning indicates would be in the UPA's future, though
probably on an 8-15 year timeline."

I do not think this should take until 2023 to implement. If this is
really the UPA's schedule, it's hard to defend its right to run
college ultimate.

"The UPA has had no competition in this arena, which has been, in many
ways, a good thing (the UPA can focus on other aims like Youth
Development)."

As a former youth player, I respect the UPA's efforts in youth
ultimate. However, it sounds as though you are implying that due to
lack of competition, the UPA has been free to keep college ultimate
treading water while it (the UPA) focused on youth. Is this really
what you meant? And if this is what you meant, wouldn't the UPA be
even more free to promote youth ultimate if a separate entity like
Cultimate took over the elite men's college division?

"Conflict with the UPA is major potential liability"

A conflict for whom exactly?

"it is hard to say right now what any negotiation might look like."

This is probably because the UPA has never had to negotiate the terms
of how exactly competition is organized. It might not be a bad thing
to see how the UPA does negotiate this. I think this type of
negotiation is inevitable.

"A direct competition between the UPA and Cultimate for control of the
dominant championship series could split the division."

How likely do you think this is? The captains of the top five college
men's teams are probably communicating right now about what to do.
Once they get their teams on board, all the other teams that are in
the top 25 will quickly follow. Nobody will want to be in the second
division. This would be true even without the extra perks Cultimate
is offering.

"Because the UPA has a wide-ranging and diverse mandate, and it does
not specialize in competitive administration."

The more competitive players suffer more for the game, and will
probably serve as better promotional vehicles. If they so choose,
they should have their division run by an entity that specializes in
their needs. Treating the best players with the same level of respect
as the worst players may make the UPA feel good, but this will be the
main reason why the UPA will likely eventually be an entity which
organizes only the less competitive divisions.

"we feel that a market contest between the UPA and Cultimate may see
Cultimate succeed."

Are you acknowledging that Cultimate is prepared to do more for elite
men's college ultimate than the UPA is (or are you suggesting that
elite men's college players will simply be duped by good marketing)?
If so, how can you ask these players not to choose Cultimate? Would
you ask non-competitive players to sacrifice the quality of their
ultimate experience for the sake of making things better for elite
players?

"Because this has the potential for disrupting many other extremely
worthwhile UPA investments and programs, we believe that direct and
long-term competition between the UPA and Cultimate is bad for the
sport of Ultimate."

Outside of lost revenue (25 teams x about 22 players x $30 = about
$16,500 a year lost UPA dues revenue), what type of disruption are you
talking about?

"We feel there is a potentially huge opportunity for cooperation.
Given an equitable profit sharing move between the UPA and Cultimate,
the College Division could be served well while maintaining the
valuable UPA service array."

What incentive does Cultimate have to cooperate with the UPA? Why do
you think that Cultimate can't serve part of the college division
while the UPA keeps "maintaining [its] valuable ... service array?"

"Cooperation in regards to dues payment and eligibility oversight
could, potentially, guarantee the UPA both the revenue traditionally
used while cutting back on UPA waste."

So Cultimate would share its profits with the UPA while also doing
work which the UPA currently sees as "waste," or are you suggesting
that the UPA would share money with Cultimate? One of these entities
will be making more money than the other off of college ultimate, so
unless the upa makes more off of college or takes money from other
divisions to share with Cultimate, you are talking about Cultimate
subsidizing the UPA. Why would they want to do this?

As for Cultimate basically paying the UPA to determine players'
eligibility, does the UPA really spend that much on determining
eligibility?

"We feel strongly that any College Ultimate model must allow for up-
and-coming teams to enter within the timeframe of a player's
eligibility. Any system that keeps a college player out of Conference
1, for any reason other than competition, for five years is
unacceptable to us."

Well said!

"Additionally, teams that are not invited to Conference 1 will, at the
moment, have only the UPA series to look forward to: potentially
without some/many of the top teams. This could be a significant
downgrade in the season for these teams. Finding good tournaments will
likely become more difficult for those teams on the outside looking
in, if it happens."

Good point. What if the bottom 5-10 teams at every Cultimate
championship got eliminated for one year and the top 5-10 teams from
the UPA championship qualified for the next year's Cultimate
division? Given the history of UPA college nationals, this would
represent a similar rate of turnover of teams playing at nationals,
although it would be bittersweet for the seniors on lower division
teams which qualified for the next year's Cultimate. Also, each of
the top 5-10 ranked Cultimate teams could have the option of
nominating 1 lower division team in their region to qualify for
nationals based on play at local non-Cultimate tournaments.

"We are very concerned that this is a male-only endevour. The Huddle
has been assured by the directors of Cultimate that future years will
bring significant developments in the Women's division. We feel, and
we are now confident that Cultimate agrees, that a Men's-only solution
is not acceptable in the long run, but that it may be a necessary evil
in the short run as Cultimate establishes a model."

Have you solicited any feedback from top college female teams? If
they are not into Cultimate, this is not an issue. Even if they are
into Cultimate, it seems you are on board with starting with only a
men's division.

"Finally, Conference 1 will likely experiment with rules and
officiation techniques. While we encourage experimentation, we worry
that introduction of these experiments in the Series may be too
aggressive of a change."

Why don't we just leave that one up to elite college men's players?
These guys are old enough to vote and serve in the army. I think
they're old enough to decide if they want to play in an ultimate
league with a few new rules.

"Cultimate plans to create a Board of Directors, chosen by them but
hopefully representing the community, to help guide these changes in
an intelligent manner. The way that this potential board acts in
relation to this question will be important."

Well, when all the decisions about how to organize the most
competitive league don't have to be approved by people who see top
level ultimate as a potential threat to grass roots ultimate, I think
you will be amazed at how quickly and how well things get done. And
when grass roots ultimate (which I love) is alive and well in 10 years
after Cultimate begins, some people will have some explaining to do.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2638 is a reply to message #2626] Tue, 14 October 2008 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tatchity
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
Sometimes you are proud of your friends, and sometimes you are ashamed
of your friends. In this case, I am very pleased with Joey. What do
you think they are doing in UPA headquarters right now? I'm guessing
they have broken open a the glass case that covers a big red button
that says "PANIC" in large white letters. When pressed, a bunch of red
flashing lights go off, and a large horn blows.


> Seriously, you really put Cyle in charge of this thing?  I've never
> met the guy and don't need to in order to know not to trust him.  The
> man stole money from his own teammates.  I don't care what he's done
> before or after that.  Someone actually decided to put me in a
> position where I'm allowed to hire and fire people.  If you think for
> one second that I would hire someone who has a history of stealing
> from his old company, you're insane.  Now you want to put him in
> charge of the operation?  I'll put it in terms Cyle can understand(or
> maybe not, as apparently he was a bad gambler), right now Obama is
> paying -525 to win the presidency.  If it came out that he had stolen
> thousands of dollars from his family and lost it gambling just two or
> three years ago; he would drop to about +800 immediately.
>
> Joey #42
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2645 is a reply to message #2638] Tue, 14 October 2008 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Duchamanos
Messages: 52
Registered: September 2008
Member
There were 8 better teams in the South region than Kansas. Sure you
want them in your top 25?

Hope they don't check college records too carefully, Karl Doege could
get that ellusive 238th year of eligibility.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2648 is a reply to message #2645] Tue, 14 October 2008 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tatchity
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 1:20 am, tatch...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 15, 1:10 am, Duchamanos <justhib...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > There were 8 better teams in the South region than Kansas.  Sure you
> > want them in your top 25?
>
> > Hope they don't check college records too carefully, Karl Doege could
> > get that ellusive 238th year of eligibility.
>
> 10 of them were the frizzz fucking bears

I love you watson
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2650 is a reply to message #2645] Tue, 14 October 2008 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tatchity
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 1:10 am, Duchamanos <justhib...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were 8 better teams in the South region than Kansas.  Sure you
> want them in your top 25?
>
> Hope they don't check college records too carefully, Karl Doege could
> get that ellusive 238th year of eligibility.

10 of them were the frizzz fucking bears
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2658 is a reply to message #2648] Wed, 15 October 2008 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
drpangloss31415
Messages: 15
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
As I see it, Cultimate would like provide a large number of
tournaments across the nation that have a mantle of legitimacy. These
tournaments will be divided into C1 and normal brackets, and being
large tournaments, can provide more amenities than the casual, student
run tournaments. The top teams attend because they have the
opportunity to play other top teams (not to mention the subsidized
bids / uniforms), and the normal teams attend because the tournament
is more official and better run than any of the area tournaments.

The UPA sectionals / regionals / nationals system isn't conducive to
the development of commercialized ultimate because running a
tournament with 16 or 32 teams well isn't worth the bid money, so
Cultimate has nowhere to grow while the current system is in place.
Their system seems like it could be an improvement for competitive
ultimate, but I think it would poach teams from the area tournaments
that college programs run as fundraisers, thus compromising the
financial security of many of the teams it would like paying the
entrance fees for its tournaments.

As a college player, I really hope that the UPA / Cultimate conflict
resolves and we are not left with multiple, delegitimized national
series in the end.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2659 is a reply to message #2606] Wed, 15 October 2008 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bww
Messages: 39
Registered: October 2008
Member
I find this idea abhorrent.

For full disclosure I play for Wisconsin-B (emphasis, not the
hodags) I have not discussed this with the hodags in any way. DO NOT
take my opinions as representing the hodags, or even Wisconsin-B in
any way.

Is going to sectionals really that much of a problem? Madison is an
hour away from its sectionals, not even worth getting a hotel.
Florida is (according to google maps) about 2 hours away from its
sections. There are teams, I assume, that travel longer, yet
sectionals is frequently the closest tournament teams go to (at least
here up north). Travel isnt a legitimate reason to ditch the series.

Regionals is something else entirely. Not only was it a 2 hour drive,
but the hodags beat Iowa on universe point at regions. Had it gone
the other way it would have, undoubtedly, been the greatest moment in
many of the Iowa players ultimate careers. Iowa did better against
the hodags than any team at nationals, yet they arent C1. Regional
teams are competition.

Take a glance at Florida's schedule, just to have apt comparison to
Brodie's interview. Only in sectionals and regionals they did NOT
play in power pools. How is this not apt competition? IF I am
remembering correctly, wasnt Arizona a team that wasn't in the power
pools at TiV? Didnt they lose to a team that wouldnt have been C1?
Is that what they're trying to avoid?

That game, the shot at the elite teams, is what I live for, what I
train for, what I yearn for. I play to get to play Oklahoma, or
Michigan, or Minnesota, or Wisconsin.

The college series gives every team a shot. C1 would give 27 teams a
shot.

I want my shot.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2666 is a reply to message #2659] Wed, 15 October 2008 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shy
Messages: 16
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
I was never a fan of outsourcing...
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2667 is a reply to message #2658] Wed, 15 October 2008 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
purple.leisure
Messages: 103
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 12:19 am, drpangloss31...@gmail.com wrote:
> As I see it, Cultimate would like provide a large number of
> tournaments across the nation that have a mantle of legitimacy. These
> tournaments will be divided into C1 and normal brackets, and being
> large tournaments, can provide more amenities than the casual, student
> run tournaments. The top teams attend because they have the
> opportunity to play other top teams (not to mention the subsidized
> bids / uniforms), and the normal teams attend because the tournament
> is more official and better run than any of the area tournaments.
>
> The UPA sectionals / regionals / nationals system isn't conducive to
> the development of commercialized ultimate because running a
> tournament with 16 or 32 teams well isn't worth the bid money, so
> Cultimate has nowhere to grow while the current system is in place.
> Their system seems like it could be an improvement for competitive
> ultimate, but I think it would poach teams from the area tournaments
> that college programs run as fundraisers, thus compromising the
> financial security of many of the teams it would like paying the
> entrance fees for its tournaments.
>
> As a college player, I really hope that the UPA / Cultimate conflict
> resolves and we are not left with multiple, delegitimized national
> series in the end.

Western? is that Western washington? and UBC in my opinion has a
better case of being in the northwest over some of those teams. There
are some other teams on the list of "top twenty five" that I don't
get. Brown? another team. I'm not against these teams in particular
but I don't get how the teams where chosen. I deffinitly think it's an
interesting idea. If this makes ultimate a "real sport" than like all
other "real sports" goodbye to the underdog. Look at college football
and basketball. All of the top talent go to a few schools. Yes in
march madness you have the cindarella story but they are usually not a
real contender for the national championship. So I guess this means
more championships for Wisconsin and Florida. The best youth players
will now want to go where the "real" championship is played. and they
aren't going to get there by going to a smaller school and trying to
help the small school build it's program. The small school doesn't
even have a chance. Still an interesting idea though.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2668 is a reply to message #2606] Wed, 15 October 2008 01:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Axl
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Conference 1 is an absolutely necessary and remarkable step for
Ultimate. Congratulations to Cultimate, specifically Skip and Cyle,
for being the revolutionary leader of one biggest and most significant
steps Ultimate has ever taken. Ever since I started playing Ultimate 5
years ago it has been extremely frustrating to see Ultimate in such a
state of relative stagnation. I almost always get the same general
response when I tell people I play Ultiamte, “What’s that?” or “Oh,
that game where you throw the frisbee at a basket?”. As a player who
takes significant pride in increasing athletic ability and pushing
myself to my limits it is so frustrating that the awareness of what
Ultimate truly is has not come anywhere close to its potential. I
spend literally 3 hours in the gym everyday and I eat 4800 calories a
day, sticking to a strict diet of 8 meals a day all to become the best
player I can possibly be. Conference 1 is the answer to the serious
athlete’s prayers for higher quality Ultimate. Conference 1 sets the
new generation of Ultimate apart. Conference 1 dramatically increases
the sport’s legitimacy and potential for growth.

For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
success of Conference 1 skyrockets.

We, as a Ultimate community, are now so much closer to becoming a
legitimate sport. We can now attract more athletes and there is no
limit to the level of play that will follow. There will always be pick-
up Ultimate around the country, people will still find Ultimate in the
same sorts that many of us did. The only difference is that now there
is a clear, definite, stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment
set in place that will promote the growth and furthering of the game
in a totally new way.

Cultimate has already proven its abilities is setting up and running
the best tournaments. There is absolutely no authentic reason not to
trust that they will only that that to the next level with the
expansion of their program.

Thank you Cultimate. Thank you Conference 1. Thank you Cyle. Thank you
Skip.

Axl
15
Kansas Ultimate
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2669 is a reply to message #2668] Wed, 15 October 2008 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
buddy_reyd
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 1:25 am, Axl <Layoutpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Conference 1 is an absolutely necessary and remarkable step for
> Ultimate. Congratulations to Cultimate, specifically Skip and Cyle,
> for being the revolutionary leader of one biggest and most significant
> steps Ultimate has ever taken. Ever since I started playing Ultimate 5
> years ago it has been extremely frustrating to see Ultimate in such a
> state of relative stagnation. I almost always get the same general
> response when I tell people I play Ultiamte, “What’s that?” or “Oh,
> that game where you throw the frisbee at a basket?”. As a player who
> takes significant pride in increasing athletic ability and pushing
> myself to my limits it is so frustrating that the awareness of what
> Ultimate truly is has not come anywhere close to its potential. I
> spend literally 3 hours in the gym everyday and I eat 4800 calories a
> day, sticking to a strict diet of 8 meals a day all to become the best
> player I can possibly be. Conference 1 is the answer to the serious
> athlete’s prayers for higher quality Ultimate. Conference 1 sets the
> new generation of Ultimate apart. Conference 1 dramatically increases
> the sport’s legitimacy and potential for growth.
>
> For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
> should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
> all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
> success of Conference 1 skyrockets.
>
> We, as a Ultimate community, are now so much closer to becoming a
> legitimate sport. We can now attract more athletes and there is no
> limit to the level of play that will follow. There will always be pick-
> up Ultimate around the country, people will still find Ultimate in the
> same sorts that many of us did. The only difference is that now there
> is a clear, definite, stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment
> set in place that will promote the growth and furthering of the game
> in a totally new way.
>
> Cultimate has already proven its abilities is setting up and running
> the best tournaments. There is absolutely no authentic reason not to
> trust that they will only that that to the next level with the
> expansion of their program.
>
> Thank you Cultimate. Thank you Conference 1. Thank you Cyle. Thank you
> Skip.
>
> Axl
> 15
> Kansas Ultimate

besides the fact that you would be bitching just like every other team
who didnt make it if kansas hadnt been chosen...what are you trying to
say here "There is absolutely no authentic reason not to trust that
they will only that that to the next level with the expansion of their
program."
-ps read about cyle stealing money from his team and then losing it
all

also, kansas does not deserve to be there

agreed that ultimate needs to be changed.

not sure if cultimate should lead the charge, but even if this is
unsuccessful (hopefully), the movement will have been made, and change
will come more rapidly
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2670 is a reply to message #2666] Wed, 15 October 2008 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam Dyer
Messages: 54
Registered: October 2008
Member
I would think more than 1 team from outside of this elite group should
be able to qualify. Having so many teams compete for 1 bid is
absurd. How would it be proper to judge amongst Williams, LPC,
Western Washington, USF, Cornell, Iowa etc... they play few games
between each other and even with the 13 or so tournaments announced
they aren't very likely to play against each other that much.

I like the idea if it has more qualifiers for nationals outside of C1.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2675 is a reply to message #2667] Wed, 15 October 2008 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pooner
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2008
Member
Yes in
> march madness you have the cindarella story but they are usually not a
> real contender for the national championship.

....have absolutely no idea about how to implement it, but I wish
cultimate COULD pull off something like the NCAA tournament. March
Madness is possibly the most thrilling college sports event of the
year; c'mon, how many people have filled out a bracket, guessed on
upsets, and watched where their money went, and enjoyed it? and
cinderellas DO get their due in the tournament, although they rarely
take it ALL the way, but still beat the Floridas occasionally. AND
there's usually a different champion every year.

still, have no idea how it would work, but it would give cultimate
something better to do than ruin ultimate for everyone else.

pooner
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2676 is a reply to message #2675] Wed, 15 October 2008 05:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
aaronschieber
Messages: 1
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Every year there are page after page of complaints on RSD about the
fact that UPA College Nationals are not an accurate representation of
of the top teams in college ultimate and that the UPA system of
picking teams is clunky at best. I'm not ready to jump on board and
say that this is the best system yet, but I am extremely interested to
see how well Cultimate will deal with the complaints that are
obviously going to arise. Historically the UPA has been
unapologetically slow about changing the format or re-working its
current system. If Conference 1 is in fact a success I think it will
be in large part because it will have the ability, because of it's
smaller structure, to change more quickly. No system is born perfect
but and think another group competing against the UPA to make ultimate
better is a good thing. Maybe this will make them understand that
there is a very strong desire for a more competitive system.

Aaron
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2677 is a reply to message #2675] Wed, 15 October 2008 06:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Erik
Messages: 5
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 15, 5:29 am, pooner <RyGuyB...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yes in
>
> > march madness you have the cindarella story but they are usually not a
> > real contender for the national championship.
>
> ...have absolutely no idea about how to implement it, but I wish
> cultimate COULD pull off something like the NCAA tournament.  March
> Madness is possibly the most thrilling college sports event of the
> year; c'mon, how many people have filled out a bracket, guessed on
> upsets, and watched where their money went, and enjoyed it?  and
> cinderellas DO get their due in the tournament, although they rarely
> take it ALL the way, but still beat the Floridas occasionally.  AND
> there's usually a different champion every year.
>
> still, have no idea how it would work, but it would give cultimate
> something better to do than ruin ultimate for everyone else.
>
> pooner



Conference-1 would absolutely destroy many of the teams that aren't
included in the competition. The mountain of effort put in by my team
to recruit for our A-team, build our B-team, and to become the most
competitive team we can be this year, would be absolutely crushed by
an illegitimate nationals championship. Arizona didn't have an
amazing 2008 season by luck; we set the team goal of becoming one of
the best teams in the nation early in the Fall, and many on the team
believed a National Championship was possible. We laid the foundation
for our storybook season through week after week of intense
practicing, track workouts, plyometrics and weightlifting. Like every
other year, we learned from our mistakes last year, and have
significantly changed this year's program and renewed our motivation
in an effort to do better. I can't imagine other "non-elite" teams
haven't experienced something similar, and I am incredibly honored
whenever I meet players from those teams who are inspired by our
underdog success. There are many such teams who are training harder
than they ever have before to get a chance to play at the highest
level. To deny ANY team the chance to compete Nationally would be a
tremendous blow to any team's competitive spirit, resulting in a whole
lot of really bad ultimate teams.

Not only will the 2009 season be thrown out the window to
experimentation, but Conference-1 leaves our college season in the
hands of a few people (who have a very large interest in money) rather
than a democratically elected board. Exactly how much are Skip, Cyle
and 5-Ultimate going to make if this goes through? Why should I
entrust the future of college ultimate into two people's hands? Are
the current elite teams all that matter in competitive college
ultimate? Those "top" teams are the ones who stand to benefit from
Conference-1, while any aspirations of other teams to become great
turn into the impossible. One of the most attractive aspects of
playing Ultimate is that any team has a shot through dedication and
smart training - Arizona is proof of that. I have spent the last four
years of my life with the help of many teammates and friends like Joe
Kershner to build the most competitive ultimate team that I can with
one holy grail in mind: to be the best. The personal sacrifices that
were required by Arizona players in the past, let alone already in
this off season are immeasurable. Conference-1 would not only be a
completely illegitimate championship considering every team in the
Nation doesn't have a chance to compete, but would shatter the hearts
of players and teams like mine. Winning C-1, instead, would simply
give that team a claim to "Being the best out of 25 teams that Skip
and Cycle picked, plus one other one." Doesn't quite have the same
ring to it as National Champions.

Erik Gafni
2008 Captain of Arizona
#49
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2678 is a reply to message #2606] Wed, 15 October 2008 06:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joel.houmes
Messages: 41
Registered: October 2008
Member
My initial reaction to Cultimate is mixed. Of course, the first
reaction is WOW! What a bombshell.

It does bring up all kinds of questions and it will be interesting to
see how the next several months play out in the negotiations between
Cultimate and the UPA. I think there is a balance to be found that
will allow the organizations to co-exist and thrive, but finding the
right balance could be tricky. If we use other sports as models we
see that, for example, the NCAA runs college basketball but USA
Basketball runs international teams and supports local organizations
as well as coach and youth development. Something similar may be in
store for the UPA.

I think the eligibility issues are still a huge issue. If negotiated
properly, perhaps Cultimate can still require their participating team
members to be UPA members and go through the UPA rostering process.
That would alleviate that burden from a Cultimate organization that
surely must be strained by more than tripling the number of
tournaments they are running this year. Many people that also
criticized the idea because it seems elitist and to some extent it
is. However, it would be foolhardy for any organization to attempt to
include every college team in its first year. That is just way too
many teams and tournaments to manage without first developing the
system to support it. I do not know what the Cultimate plans for the
future are, but it is easy to see how the model they are developing
could be expanded to more teams next year (say 8 per division) and
perhaps even eventually expanded to correspond to current NCAA
conferences. It would also seem possible to develop a Conference 2 and
even a Conference 3 for smaller schools or "B" teams. The UPA is
already in the process of developing a second college division (or
will be soon) to allow smaller schools to play more competitive games
and have their own national championship. It would seem that the
Cultimate movement could be viewed as a step in this direction. It
does take away some of the thrill the smaller schools get by playing
an "elite" team, but NCAA DII and DIII sports still thrive and
Ultimate at smaller schools could as well.

Finally, one thing that has always bothered me a bit about the UPA is
that it really does not do a very good job of marketing itself and
drawing in corporate dollars to support itself. It does appear the
Cultimate is much better at this and indeed needs to be so as it is a
for profit venture. The end result of all of this may mean more
sponsorship dollars for the UPA, which can go into a more focused
mission (youth ultimate, coach training, international play, etc).

I will still have to mull this whole thing over some more, but I think
my initial reaction is more positive than negative. If successful, I
think it will bring the possibility for much greater public exposure
and a more "professional" presentation of the sport.

The next couple months will be interesting.

joel
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2688 is a reply to message #2678] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Truck
Messages: 2
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
So many supporters of this Conference 1 system mention that it will
help the growth of ultimate. But I have yet to see anyone give an
explanation as to *how* this will help growth.

How is eliminating 90% of college teams from the National Championship
going to encourage growth?

The UPA has worked hard to hold elections, votes, and conferences on
the changes needed for the sport of Ultimate. How is it possible that
so many are willing to give up their voice, and let 2 people determine
the fate of the college ultimate championships? The UPA has a staff
of dedicated people that work their ass to run the series. (I can't
believe someone actually said "As for Cultimate basically paying the
UPA to determine players' eligibility, does the UPA really spend that
much on determining eligibility?").

Conference 1 is going to cripple the spread of competitive college
ultimate. The UPA series is working. In the past 10 years the number
of college teams has growth by several hundred percent, in large part
because every team has a shot.

I cannot see this change as anything more than elitist teams being
amazingly selfish.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2690 is a reply to message #2688] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nicholas.kohn
Messages: 37
Registered: October 2008
Member
Yet another reason why C1 is a bad idea: the impact of refereed games

If I was the coach of a C1 team, I'd start teaching my players how to
play in refereed games - cheat but try not to get caught. For
example, start elbowing cutters because it'd be hard for a ref to
catch it.

What happens when these players try and go play non-C1 games (club,
hat tourneys, etc)? They'll carry over their intentional cheating
tactics.

Also, if you want your C1 team to compete well, you'll do the same
thing that college football teams do - hire refs for your practices.
This is because you want your players to know what they can get away
with in actual games. Does C1 realize the cost involved in hiring a
couple refs for every practice??
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2694 is a reply to message #2688] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hazera 36
Messages: 44
Registered: September 2008
Member
or is it the other 90% being amazingly selfish? All the complaints
I've heard so far have been "my team this" and "I work so hard" blah
blah... sounds kinda selfish to me...

this might not be the right answer to the stagnation of college
ultimate but it gets the ball rolling.

I played for a team that most defiantly wouldn't have qualified for
this elite bracket stuff none the less I still think it's great
something is happening. By doing C1 you create DII with the UPA and
have two college championships to play for. Yeah one may be a little
more elite than the other but it levels the playing fields in both
divisions and gives more teams a crack at playing in some sort of
championship while at the same time letting those who are on the
outside looking in have a chance, although it is slim, to break into
the elite.

Also this idea of decreased growth is bogus. You think that having an
elite division will decrease the number of new ultimate programs?
When was the last time a new program went directly to the top? So
with C1 you now have a DII (UPA) giving these newer teams a shorter
road to competitive play with other not-so-elite programs all trying
to get to the top of the not-so-elite mountain. Why wouldn't there be
growth here? It doesn't make ultimate less popular does it?

Honestly if people want to talk about good change we should probably
just kick it directly to a single elimination 64 team bracket. More
teams, more story lines, and hopefully some elimination of this
retarded wild card format based on performance done 365 days prior...
now that's just funny.

Change is good.





On Oct 15, 10:00 am, The Truck <ntu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So many supporters of this Conference 1 system mention that it will
> help the growth of ultimate.  But I have yet to see anyone give an
> explanation as to *how* this will help growth.
>
> How is eliminating 90% of college teams from the National Championship
> going to encourage growth?
>
> The UPA has worked hard to hold elections, votes, and conferences on
> the changes needed for the sport of Ultimate.  How is it possible that
> so many are willing to give up their voice, and let 2 people determine
> the fate of the college ultimate championships?  The UPA has a staff
> of dedicated people that work their ass to run the series.  (I can't
> believe someone actually said "As for Cultimate basically paying the
> UPA to determine players' eligibility, does the UPA really spend that
> much on determining eligibility?").
>
> Conference 1 is going to cripple the spread of competitive college
> ultimate.  The UPA series is working.  In the past 10 years the number
> of college teams has growth by several hundred percent, in large part
> because every team has a shot.
>
> I cannot see this change as anything more than elitist teams being
> amazingly selfish.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2701 is a reply to message #2690] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 10:09 am, nicholas.k...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yet another reason why C1 is a bad idea: the impact of refereed games
>
> If I was the coach of a C1 team, I'd start teaching my players how to
> play in refereed games - cheat but try not to get caught. For
> example, start elbowing cutters because it'd be hard for a ref to
> catch it.
>
> What happens when these players try and go play non-C1 games (club,
> hat tourneys, etc)? They'll carry over their intentional cheating
> tactics.

That's right, Nick. Find a pinnacle of integrity in the Cultimate
organization to share your concern about the impact of egregious
cheating in non-C1 competition. I think Cyle Van Auken may be your
man.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2707 is a reply to message #2694] Wed, 15 October 2008 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 15, 9:23 am, Hazera 36 <Francisco.haz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> this might not be the right answer to the stagnation of college
> ultimate but it gets the ball rolling.
>
> I played for a team that most defiantly wouldn't have qualified for
> this elite bracket stuff none the less I still think it's great
> something is happening.  By doing C1 you create DII with the UPA and
> have two college championships to play for.  Yeah one may be a little
> more elite than the other but it levels the playing fields in both
> divisions and gives more teams a crack at playing in some sort of
> championship while at the same time letting those who are on the
> outside looking in have a chance, although it is slim, to break into
> the elite.
>
> Also this idea of decreased growth is bogus.  You think that having an
> elite division will decrease the number of new ultimate programs?
> When was the last time a new program went directly to the top?  So
> with C1 you now have a DII (UPA) giving these newer teams a shorter
> road to competitive play with other not-so-elite programs all trying
> to get to the top of the not-so-elite mountain.  Why wouldn't there be
> growth here?  It doesn't make ultimate less popular does it?
>

I agree with Hazera for the most part here. This may provide more
growth opportunity and give more teams a chance to contend or play
deeper into the UPA series.

It may also fail and soon become a footnote in Ultimate history like
MLU or Cuervo. However, it is a bold effort to do something bigger
with high-level Ultimate and is worth a shot.
Re: Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate? [message #2720 is a reply to message #2690] Wed, 15 October 2008 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Alex Peters
Messages: 287
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Right, because sportsmanship doesn't exist unless it's labeled "spirit
of the game" and all them cheatin' bastards that play reffed
basketball, football, soccer, hockey, and baseball are out their
throwin' 'bows at each other's head in rec league while the refs
aren't looking.

Oh, and no one ever cheats in ultimate now.

On Oct 15, 10:09 am, nicholas.k...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yet another reason why C1 is a bad idea: the impact of refereed games
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