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Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2154] Thu, 09 October 2008 21:20 Go to next message
Head Beagle
Messages: 65
Registered: September 2008
Member
Sorry to drag this back up, but I wanted to reply.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ME:
> Soccer got started in my hometown when I was a kid when the US Youth
> Soccer introduced mini-soccer (small fields, I think 6 players on the
> field at a time). My town was small and couldn't support a full fledge
> kiddie soccer league, but could support mini soccer. THere was no
> middle school team, no high school team, nothing. Now there is a high
> school team, women's high school team, several middle school team, a
> full fledge kiddie soccer league, and plans to build a massive soccer
> complex in town. All this started with mini-soccer. Are there plans to
> take Ultimate along a similar path?

Toad:
is there any semi pro team? (we got the hammerheads in wilm......who
are about 4 levels under mls i think)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----

No, my little hometown has nothing resembling a semi-pro soccer team,
or semi-pro anything team, and it probably never will. There is a
college team and about 1.5 hours away there is a semi pro indoor
soccer team that I didn’t know about until one of the local college
players that I was friends with made the team.

HOWEVER, there are a ton of kids playing soccer and a ton of parents/
adults (non-parents) who think it is worth a ton of time and money to
form a youth soccer association that is raising $350,000+ to build a
soccer complex. These parents/adults couldn’t care less about Major
League Soccer or the semi-pro indoor team nearby, they just know that
kid like playing soccer and they want to provide the opportunity and
facilities to make it possible.

Now, on to the real issue. Two quotes:

From Catherine:

- practical -- there aren't anywhere near close the number of
players/
ex-players/potential 'referees' out there to be able to keep the
sport
growing at the youth level. Kids are going to have to learn to do it
themselves (with coaching/training from adults whenever possible).
The idea of kiddie leagues with active refs in towns all over the
country is completely untenable for at least 10 if not 20 more years.


From Toad:
so then you would have to agree with me on the issue of youth
ulti......which is "there aint a whole lot the upa can do.....its
pretty much up to the localized efforts of local administraitors to
put forth all the time and engergy that will determine what the
success rate of the league is".

First, to Catherine: I think this was meant as a reply to the idea of
active refereeing, but I just wanted some clarification on the
“completely untenable” part. Where you referring to kiddie leagues
with active reffing, or kiddie leagues in general (in terms of time-
frame)?

To toad: I don't think it is entirely a localized issue. There are a
lot of resources the UPA can utilize that locals don't have access to.
See my proposal below.

Lets say you have a small ultimate scene in a little town somewhere,
lets say, less than 50 players, and they want to create a youth league
in their hometown.

Question #1: What resources does the UPA currently offer that can help
this group? What resources SHOULD the UPA offer to this group?

Hmm..that is a good question, but a poor way to lead into my post.
Lets just start with the proposal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Proposal: The UPA should provide substantial support to players in
small towns trying to start youth ultimate leagues with limited
resources.

Ideal situation: 8 people in Town X decide they want to start a youth
ultimate league. They are willing to put in the time and effort, but
need support to do it. They don’t know how to market, they don’t have
flashy posters, they don’t have easy access to discs, they don’t have
easy access to screen printing, etc.

In steps the UPA to match up to $400 raised by the local group. So,
the local group raises $400 (which could be as easy as each of those 8
people chipping in $50.00), they UPA matches that $400.

What can you do with $800

The start up league could consist of 8 teams with 8 players each (this
is counting on the 8 volunteers to coach each team) for a total of 64
players. NOTE: I am counting on modified youth rules creating a 5v5
game for this particular scenario, not 7v7 (see mini-soccer post
above)

The UPA, with access to greater resources can provide the following
for $800.

64 youth shirts with a UPA developed/designed logo. All across the
country, kids are all wearing UPA shirts. Cost: 64X5= $320 (probably a
bit high, actually, if the UPA is mass producing these for lots of
leagues across the country)

64 custom printed discs Youth League Discs from discraft: 64X5=$320

Right there is the basics for a league. Discs and shirts for a total
of $640. The remaining $160 can go to the following:

-The UPA can design attractive, well produced posters and other
marketing material that would be beyond the capability of local
volunteers to make, but would be easy for an organization like the
UPA. Standard posters with blanks left for “Sharpie” customization by
local volunteers. IE: For more info, call______________ (local fills
in phone number)

-Standardized registration forms for the league

-Rule books (using the not-yet-developed youth rules)

I don’t know pricing for those, but probably well under $160

Now, when those 8 volunteers go to the local parks and rec department,
they don’t have to say “We want to start an ultimate league, what do
we do??” Instead, they can present a fully funded program that is free
to all participants for the first year. All the parks and rec has to
do is provide fields and a little bit of support (post it on their
website, etc.) Now, granted, that isn’t nothing, but it isn’t that
much. Consider it a trial period. If it is successful, next year they
can charge $15 a player. This would provide MORE funding than the
initial $800. And, if it is successful, you could easily charge more
to cover fields and other expenses as the program expands. I just
found a youth baseball organization for a little town. Cost: $55 a
player, plus the cost of equipment. Soccer was $50-65 a player.

Every parks and rec department will jump at this!! A free program for
a year. If it works, great they have added a new and exciting activity
to the city, if it doesn’t, no big deal, they didn’t lose anything.

What does the UPA get? Remember their initial investment of $400?? If
this program eventually produces 10 people who end up joining the upa
at some point in their life at $40 a membership, they have their $400
back. Alternatively, if 2 people play 4 years of college and 1 year of
club because they started as a kid, they get their $400 back. Anything
more than that is a greater return on the investment. And don’t we
have 500,000 dollars to use for something?? That is 20 cities in every
state!!

With 8 teams you can have two sets of two games each Saturday. If you
want active refs, the coaches for the non-playing teams can act as
active refs. Takes about 2.5 hours total for 7 weeks to play everyone.

How many cities in the US can find 8 people who will give 2.5 hours a
week for 7 weeks and $50 to start a youth ultimate program in their
hometown??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thoughts; I know this is a bit of a rosy picture, it is never as easy
as it sounds in typing. Also, I am having a hard time concentrating,
so my coherence may be hurting a bit. Hopefully I got the general idea
across successfully.

Any thoughts on this sort of thing?

I would advocate focusing on mid to smaller cities with this plan, not
the places that already have big ultimate scenes (Atlanta, Boston,
Denver, etc.)

Try to grow it in the small towns where t-ball, soccer, and pee wee
football are the big events on Saturday morning.

Feedback from any and all is much appreciated!!!
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2174 is a reply to message #2154] Fri, 10 October 2008 08:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manzell
Messages: 145
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> Ideal situation: 8 people in Town X decide they want to start a youth
> ultimate league. They are willing to put in the time and effort, but
> need support to do it. They don’t know how to market, they don’t have
> flashy posters, they don’t have easy access to discs, they don’t have
> easy access to screen printing, etc.

8 people is a huge number. We couldn't get 8 committed volunteers for
youth ultimate in Portland, where there are plenty of ultimate
players, college teams, etc. Although ultimate players rank fairly
high on the 'willingness to volunteer' scale, we're not that much more
willing to volunteer than Hockey Mom's or Joe Six-Pack.

> In steps the UPA to match up to $400 raised by the local group. So,
> the local group raises $400 (which could be as easy as each of those 8
> people chipping in $50.00), they UPA matches that $400.
>
> What can you do with $800
>
> The start up league could consist of 8 teams with 8 players each (this
> is counting on the 8 volunteers to coach each team) for a total of 64
> players. NOTE: I am counting on modified youth rules creating a 5v5
> game for this particular scenario, not 7v7 (see mini-soccer post
> above)
>
> The UPA, with access to greater resources can provide the following
> for $800.
>
> 64 youth shirts with a UPA developed/designed logo. All across the
> country, kids are all wearing UPA shirts. Cost: 64X5= $320 (probably a
> bit high, actually, if the UPA is mass producing these for lots of
> leagues across the country)

Not a bad idea. I think the lack of uniforms hurts the perception of
the game from parents/administrators standpoint. Organizations would
be better off getting, say, 200 shirts, however.

> 64 custom printed discs Youth League Discs from discraft: 64X5=$320
>
> Right there is the basics for a league. Discs and shirts for a total
> of $640. The remaining $160 can go to the following:

64 is not enough. Each player will want (get) their own discs, plus
the team's practice discs, plus some discs for the league as 'game
discs'; plus some extra to sell off to parents, cousins, siblings etc.
At least 200 discs here. That's enough that you could print up "UPA
Ultimate League: Vicksburg" or whatever town you are in.

> -Standardized registration forms for the league

Standardized forms, UPA insurance, background check procedures for
volunteers - local organizations are making much more headway in this
than the UPA has; then again, its the local orgs. that are assuming
the risk when something (inevitably) goes wrong, so this makes sense.
You'd almost need to organize this as a "UPA affiliate league" or
something, in the same way that Little League Baseball, Pop Warner
Football, etc. are organized, on a franchise basis.

> Now, when those 8 volunteers go to the local parks and rec department,
> they don’t have to say “We want to start an ultimate league, what do
> we do??” Instead, they can present a fully funded program that is free
> to all participants for the first year. All the parks and rec has to
> do is provide fields and a little bit of support (post it on their
> website, etc.) Now, granted, that isn’t nothing, but it isn’t that
> much.

This is HUGE. Parks Departments don't just give away fields for free,
not to mention, even in small towns it can be difficult to pry space
away from Little League and YSA's, or pee-wee football, or whatever.
There's no clever way to solve the ever-increasing fields dilemma
other than coughin' up the cash.

> What does the UPA get? Remember their initial investment of $400?? If
> this program eventually produces 10 people who end up joining the upa
> at some point in their life at $40 a membership, they have their $400
> back. Alternatively, if 2 people play 4 years of college and 1 year of
> club because they started as a kid, they get their $400 back. Anything
> more than that is a greater return on the investment.  And don’t we
> have 500,000 dollars to use for something?? That is 20 cities in every
> state!!

This certainly makes sense; you could probably also recoup the
investment when your initial volunteers join the UPA in order to take
the coach/organizer clinics. Not to mention the inherent benefit of
exposing more people to ultimate.


> I would advocate focusing on mid to smaller cities with this plan, not
> the places that already have big ultimate scenes (Atlanta, Boston,
> Denver, etc.)

You'll need to be in cities without any type of established ultimate
organization. Or you could work through existing organizations to
introduce these leagues to "inner city" communities where ultimate has
yet to do much treading.

-----

Overall, yes, a little rosy, but not a bad idea. As much as I dislike
the culture of YSA's and Little League, we'd do well to emulate them
organizationally, and I feel that's the basic tack you are on.
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2209 is a reply to message #2174] Fri, 10 October 2008 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeremiahthacker
Messages: 29
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 10, 10:34 am, Manzell <manz...@reaxion.org> wrote:
> > Ideal situation: 8 people in Town X decide they want to start a youth
> > ultimate league. They are willing to put in the time and effort, but
> > need support to do it. They don’t know how to market, they don’t have
> > flashy posters, they don’t have easy access to discs, they don’t have
> > easy access to screen printing, etc.
>
> 8 people is a huge number. We couldn't get 8 committed volunteers for
> youth ultimate in Portland, where there are plenty of ultimate
> players, college teams, etc. Although ultimate players rank fairly
> high on the 'willingness to volunteer' scale, we're not that much more
> willing to volunteer than Hockey Mom's or Joe Six-Pack.
>
>
>
> > In steps the UPA to match up to $400 raised by the local group. So,
> > the local group raises $400 (which could be as easy as each of those 8
> > people chipping in $50.00), they UPA matches that $400.
>
> > What can you do with $800
>
> > The start up league could consist of 8 teams with 8 players each (this
> > is counting on the 8 volunteers to coach each team) for a total of 64
> > players. NOTE: I am counting on modified youth rules creating a 5v5
> > game for this particular scenario, not 7v7 (see mini-soccer post
> > above)
>
> > The UPA, with access to greater resources can provide the following
> > for $800.
>
> > 64 youth shirts with a UPA developed/designed logo. All across the
> > country, kids are all wearing UPA shirts. Cost: 64X5= $320 (probably a
> > bit high, actually, if the UPA is mass producing these for lots of
> > leagues across the country)
>
> Not a bad idea. I think the lack of uniforms hurts the perception of
> the game from parents/administrators standpoint. Organizations would
> be better off getting, say, 200 shirts, however.
>
> > 64 custom printed discs Youth League Discs from discraft: 64X5=$320
>
> > Right there is the basics for a league. Discs and shirts for a total
> > of $640. The remaining $160 can go to the following:
>
> 64 is not enough. Each player will want (get) their own discs, plus
> the team's practice discs, plus some discs for the league as 'game
> discs'; plus some extra to sell off to parents, cousins, siblings etc.
> At least 200 discs here. That's enough that you could print up "UPA
> Ultimate League: Vicksburg" or whatever town you are in.
>
> > -Standardized registration forms for the league
>
> Standardized forms, UPA insurance, background check procedures for
> volunteers - local organizations are making much more headway in this
> than the UPA has; then again, its the local orgs. that are assuming
> the risk when something (inevitably) goes wrong, so this makes sense.
> You'd almost need to organize this as a "UPA affiliate league" or
> something, in the same way that Little League Baseball, Pop Warner
> Football, etc. are organized, on a franchise basis.
>
> > Now, when those 8 volunteers go to the local parks and rec department,
> > they don’t have to say “We want to start an ultimate league, what do
> > we do??” Instead, they can present a fully funded program that is free
> > to all participants for the first year. All the parks and rec has to
> > do is provide fields and a little bit of support (post it on their
> > website, etc.) Now, granted, that isn’t nothing, but it isn’t that
> > much.
>
> This is HUGE. Parks Departments don't just give away fields for free,
> not to mention, even in small towns it can be difficult to pry space
> away from Little League and YSA's, or pee-wee football, or whatever.
> There's no clever way to solve the ever-increasing fields dilemma
> other than coughin' up the cash.
>
> > What does the UPA get? Remember their initial investment of $400?? If
> > this program eventually produces 10 people who end up joining the upa
> > at some point in their life at $40 a membership, they have their $400
> > back. Alternatively, if 2 people play 4 years of college and 1 year of
> > club because they started as a kid, they get their $400 back. Anything
> > more than that is a greater return on the investment.  And don’t we
> > have 500,000 dollars to use for something?? That is 20 cities in every
> > state!!
>
> This certainly makes sense; you could probably also recoup the
> investment when your initial volunteers join the UPA in order to take
> the coach/organizer clinics. Not to mention the inherent benefit of
> exposing more people to ultimate.
>
> > I would advocate focusing on mid to smaller cities with this plan, not
> > the places that already have big ultimate scenes (Atlanta, Boston,
> > Denver, etc.)
>
> You'll need to be in cities without any type of established ultimate
> organization. Or you could work through existing organizations to
> introduce these leagues to "inner city" communities where ultimate has
> yet to do much treading.
>
> -----
>
> Overall, yes, a little rosy, but not a bad idea. As much as I dislike
> the culture of YSA's and Little League, we'd do well to emulate them
> organizationally, and I feel that's the basic tack you are on.

head beagle for BoD
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2210 is a reply to message #2174] Fri, 10 October 2008 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Head Beagle
Messages: 65
Registered: September 2008
Member
> 8 people is a huge number. We couldn't get 8 committed volunteers for
> youth ultimate in Portland, where there are plenty of ultimate
> players, college teams, etc. Although ultimate players rank fairly
> high on the 'willingness to volunteer' scale, we're not that much more
> willing to volunteer than Hockey Mom's or Joe Six-Pack.
>

True, I don't really know how difficult it would be to get 8 people in
an area. Maybe harder than I think. I do think 8 is a good minimum
target for a succesful start up league, so maybe more of a goal than a
"what should be possible" statement.


>
> Not a bad idea. I think the lack of uniforms hurts the perception of
> the game from parents/administrators standpoint. Organizations would
> be better off getting, say, 200 shirts, however.
>
> > 64 custom printed discs Youth League Discs from discraft: 64X5=$320
>
> > Right there is the basics for a league. Discs and shirts for a total
> > of $640. The remaining $160 can go to the following:
>
> 64 is not enough. Each player will want (get) their own discs, plus
> the team's practice discs, plus some discs for the league as 'game
> discs'; plus some extra to sell off to parents, cousins, siblings etc.
> At least 200 discs here. That's enough that you could print up "UPA
> Ultimate League: Vicksburg" or whatever town you are in.
>

I think I might have not been clear somewhere. I was intending for the
initial league to be capped at 64 players (thus 64 discs, 64 shirts)
on 8 teams with each of the 8 volunteers. Just trying to set a
realistic goal instead of saying "We are going to sign up 250 kids our
first year!!!!" And definitely, town custom discs would be fantastic
for the future. I am trying to think of a clear, simple way the UPA
can make a broad ranging program that is applicable anywhere. By
standardizing the jerseys/discs, each city can start a 64 player
league with the price benefits of mass purchasing for 500-1000
(whatever the TOTAL participation the UPA provides for) that the UPA
could make for ALL the leagues.


> > -Standardized registration forms for the league
>
> Standardized forms, UPA insurance, background check procedures for
> volunteers - local organizations are making much more headway in this
> than the UPA has; then again, its the local orgs. that are assuming
> the risk when something (inevitably) goes wrong, so this makes sense.
> You'd almost need to organize this as a "UPA affiliate league" or
> something, in the same way that Little League Baseball, Pop Warner
> Football, etc. are organized, on a franchise basis.
>

Right, that is the type of structure I was picturing. And, it sounds
like you are more knowledgable on this than I am, so I am not sure
what the capabilities of local groups is compared to the UPA. Do you
think the local groups are ahead because the UPA hasn't tried to help
in this area, or because the forms need to be localized and the UPA
can't produce a mass form??



>
> This is HUGE. Parks Departments don't just give away fields for free,
> not to mention, even in small towns it can be difficult to pry space
> away from Little League and YSA's, or pee-wee football, or whatever.
> There's no clever way to solve the ever-increasing fields dilemma
> other than coughin' up the cash.
>

You are quite correct, fields are the difficult issue. Again, this is
why my orginial target was small. 8 teams on miniaturized fields,
playing two games each week. How about we make the fields 50X20 yards
for the kiddie league (just for arguments sake). That means the whole
league would need only a 50X50 square for 2.5 hours each saturday to
run the leage. A 50X50 block isn't non-existent, but it is smaller
than 1 soccer field, so there is hope at least.

But, no denying that this is one of, if not THE, hardest issues to get
around.


> -----
>
> Overall, yes, a little rosy, but not a bad idea. As much as I dislike
> the culture of YSA's and Little League, we'd do well to emulate them
> organizationally, and I feel that's the basic tack you are on.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yup, taht is the goal, to reproduce the youth success of other sports
in ultimate. Thanks for the feedback, hopefully I clarified a few
points.
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2233 is a reply to message #2154] Sat, 11 October 2008 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Catherine
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
>
> First, to Catherine: I think this was meant as a reply to the idea of
> active refereeing, but I just wanted some clarification on the
> “completely untenable” part. Where you referring to kiddie leagues
> with active reffing, or kiddie leagues in general (in terms of time-
> frame)?
>
I meant leagues with active reffing. Although I think kiddie leagues
in general are a ways down the road, too.

The idea of UPA support for youth leagues is a good one, although I
don't think kiddie leagues (age 12 and under?) are where the UPA
should be focusing its efforts. High school leagues are in serious
need of this kind of help, especially ones that are still trying to
get off the ground. And there are still nearly 25 states, I think,
where there's any organized youth (under 19) ultimate at all. Instead
of taking their idea of a league to the town Parks and Rec department,
perhaps the 8 local volunteers should make a presentation to the local
superintendent of schools, offering to organize and coach club teams
at 4-8 different schools. "Free" is a word that works really well for
them, too. And most of them recognize that their schools hold a
number of athletes who have been victims of narrowing opportunities to
play the sport of their choice (100 slots of U-10 soccer narrow down
to 40 spots on travel teams which narrow to 15 spots on a freshman
high school team, to 7 spots on a varsity team) and are happy to
provide them and the many others who have dropped out of organized
sports along the way with a chance to do something after school.
Once these leagues are established, you get greater awareness in the
community of ultimate, interested younger siblings, and grateful
parents who will talk it up and help with further organization.

>
> How many cities in the US can find 8 people who will give 2.5 hours a
> week for 7 weeks and $50 to start a youth ultimate program in their
> hometown??
>
Good question. I couldn't find more than one or two people willing to
help me out with running a high school league with 60+ teams. The UPA
needs to provide some incentives to organizers and coaches -- how
about a free lifetime membership to someone who can start a league,
and have a certain number of players in it after 3-4 years (after
success and sustainability have been demonstrated)? How about free
yearly membership to coaches of youth teams that submit complete
rosters for a sanctioned league? It's the same idea as tour
operators giving free trips to group organizers (but with much smaller
$ amounts involved!)
>
> I would advocate focusing on mid to smaller cities with this plan, not
> the places that already have big ultimate scenes (Atlanta, Boston,
> Denver, etc.)

Why? These are the places where there is some kind of an ultimate
culture (increased likelihood that Joe Blow will stumble across it
somehow) and greater numbers of potential volunteers.
>
> Try to grow it in the small towns where t-ball, soccer, and pee wee
> football are the big events on Saturday morning.

Not a chance, at least not right off the bat. If a parent doesn't
know what Ultimate is, they're not going to sign their kid up instead
of signing them up for t-ball or soccer. There is no way Ultimate is
going to displace those sports (and I know, I have three kids who have
participated in a wide array of youth sports). There has to be some
kind of a groundwork, as outlined above.

I would suggest a smaller community would want to start out with a
small summer program (a weeklong clinic, for instance) because that is
when kids tend to experiment more with things and parents are looking
for interesting new diversions. Thirty kids in a summer clinic, if
it's wildly successful, could possibly yield 60 players the following
spring.

> Feedback from any and all is much appreciated!!!

I had a much longer, more detailed response but had to walk away for a
little while in the middle of writing it, and Google wiped it out
because my session had expired -- no patience to try to replicate it,
sorry!

-- Catherine
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2308 is a reply to message #2154] Sun, 12 October 2008 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Oct 9, 9:20 pm, Head Beagle <we...@jbu.edu> wrote:
> Sorry to drag this back up, but I wanted to reply.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ME:
>
> > Soccer got started in my hometown when I was a kid when the US Youth
> > Soccer introduced mini-soccer (small fields, I think 6 players on the
> > field at a time). My town was small and couldn't support a full fledge
> > kiddie soccer league, but could support mini soccer. THere was no
> > middle school team, no high school team, nothing. Now there is a high
> > school team, women's high school team, several middle school team, a
> > full fledge kiddie soccer league, and plans to build a massive soccer
> > complex in town. All this started with mini-soccer. Are there plans to
> > take Ultimate along a similar path?
>
> Toad:
> is there any semi pro team? (we got the hammerheads in wilm......who
> are about 4 levels under mls i think)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----
>
> No, my little hometown has nothing resembling a semi-pro soccer team,
> or semi-pro anything team, and it probably never will. There is a
> college team and about 1.5 hours away there is a semi pro indoor
> soccer team that I didn’t know about until one of the local college
> players that I was friends with made the team.
>
> HOWEVER, there are a ton of kids playing soccer and a ton of parents/
> adults (non-parents) who think it is worth a ton of time and money to
> form a youth soccer association that is raising $350,000+ to build a
> soccer complex. These parents/adults couldn’t care less about Major
> League Soccer or the semi-pro indoor team nearby, they just know that
> kid like playing soccer and they want to provide the opportunity and
> facilities to make it possible.
>
> Now, on to the real issue. Two quotes:
>
> From Catherine:
>
> -       practical -- there aren't anywhere near close the number of
> players/
> ex-players/potential 'referees' out there to be able to keep the
> sport
> growing at the youth level.  Kids are going to have to learn to do it
> themselves (with coaching/training from adults whenever possible).
> The idea of kiddie leagues with active refs in towns all over the
> country is completely untenable for at least 10 if not 20 more years.
>
> From Toad:
> so then you would have to agree with me on the issue of youth
> ulti......which is "there aint a whole lot the upa can do.....its
> pretty much up to the localized efforts of local administraitors to
> put forth all the time and engergy that will determine what the
> success rate of the league is".
>
> First, to Catherine: I think this was meant as a reply to the idea of
> active refereeing, but I just wanted some clarification on the
> “completely untenable” part. Where you referring to kiddie leagues
> with active reffing, or kiddie leagues in general (in terms of time-
> frame)?
>
> To toad: I don't think it is entirely a localized issue. There are a
> lot of resources the UPA can utilize that locals don't have access to.
> See my proposal below.
>
> Lets say you have a small ultimate scene in a little town somewhere,
> lets say, less than 50 players, and they want to create a youth league
> in their hometown.
>
> Question #1: What resources does the UPA currently offer that can help
> this group? What resources SHOULD the UPA offer to this group?
>
> Hmm..that is a good question, but a poor way to lead into my post.
> Lets just start with the proposal.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Proposal: The UPA should provide substantial support to players in
> small towns trying to start youth ultimate leagues with limited
> resources.
>
> Ideal situation: 8 people in Town X decide they want to start a youth
> ultimate league. They are willing to put in the time and effort, but
> need support to do it. They don’t know how to market, they don’t have
> flashy posters, they don’t have easy access to discs, they don’t have
> easy access to screen printing, etc.
>
> In steps the UPA to match up to $400 raised by the local group. So,
> the local group raises $400 (which could be as easy as each of those 8
> people chipping in $50.00), they UPA matches that $400.
>
> What can you do with $800
>
> The start up league could consist of 8 teams with 8 players each (this
> is counting on the 8 volunteers to coach each team) for a total of 64
> players. NOTE: I am counting on modified youth rules creating a 5v5
> game for this particular scenario, not 7v7 (see mini-soccer post
> above)
>
> The UPA, with access to greater resources can provide the following
> for $800.
>
> 64 youth shirts with a UPA developed/designed logo. All across the
> country, kids are all wearing UPA shirts. Cost: 64X5= $320 (probably a
> bit high, actually, if the UPA is mass producing these for lots of
> leagues across the country)
>
> 64 custom printed discs Youth League Discs from discraft: 64X5=$320
>
> Right there is the basics for a league. Discs and shirts for a total
> of $640. The remaining $160 can go to the following:
>
> -The UPA can design attractive, well produced posters and other
> marketing material that would be beyond the capability of local
> volunteers to make, but would be easy for an organization like the
> UPA. Standard posters with blanks left for “Sharpie” customization by
> local volunteers. IE: For more info, call______________ (local fills
> in phone number)
>
> -Standardized registration forms for the league
>
> -Rule books (using the not-yet-developed youth rules)
>
> I don’t know pricing for those, but probably well under $160
>
> Now, when those 8 volunteers go to the local parks and rec department,
> they don’t have to say “We want to start an ultimate league, what do
> we do??” Instead, they can present a fully funded program that is free
> to all participants for the first year. All the parks and rec has to
> do is provide fields and a little bit of support (post it on their
> website, etc.) Now, granted, that isn’t nothing, but it isn’t that
> much. Consider it a trial period. If it is successful, next year they
> can charge $15 a player. This would provide MORE funding than the
> initial $800. And, if it is successful, you could easily charge more
> to cover fields and other expenses as the program expands. I just
> found a youth baseball organization for a little town. Cost: $55 a
> player, plus the cost of equipment.  Soccer was $50-65 a player.
>
> Every parks and rec department will jump at this!! A free program for
> a year. If it works, great they have added a new and exciting activity
> to the city, if it doesn’t, no big deal, they didn’t lose anything.
>
> What does the UPA get? Remember their initial investment of $400?? If
> this program eventually produces 10 people who end up joining the upa
> at some point in their life at $40 a membership, they have their $400
> back. Alternatively, if 2 people play 4 years of college and 1 year of
> club because they started as a kid, they get their $400 back. Anything
> more than that is a greater return on the investment.  And don’t we
> have 500,000 dollars to use for something?? That is 20 cities in every
> state!!
>
> With 8 teams you can have two sets of two games each Saturday. If you
> want active refs, the coaches for the non-playing teams can act as
> active refs. Takes about 2.5 hours total for 7 weeks to play everyone.
>
> How many cities in the US can find 8 people who will give 2.5 hours a
> week for 7 weeks and $50 to start a youth ultimate program in their
> hometown??
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Thoughts; I know this is a bit of a rosy picture, it is never as easy
> as it sounds in typing. Also, I am having a hard time concentrating,
> so my coherence may be hurting a bit. Hopefully I got the general idea
> across successfully.
>
> Any thoughts on this sort of thing?
>
> I would advocate focusing on mid to smaller cities with this plan, not
> the places that already have big ultimate scenes (Atlanta, Boston,
> Denver, etc.)
>
> Try to grow it in the small towns where t-ball, soccer, and pee wee
> football are the big events on Saturday morning.
>
> Feedback from any and all is much appreciated!!!

Your ideal situation of finding 8 people who want to start a youth
league is not realistic nor is it how any successful (that is, long
lasting and large) youth leagues have started. The successful leagues
started with one (two if you're really, really, really lucky) person/
people who was/were excited and crazy enough to put in a hell of a lot
of effort and time for 7-10 years to support their dream.

UPA support might help them a bit during the early years, but it's
probably not all that critical. I think UPA support can help build on
a foundation to keep the league growing after it's reached somewhat of
a stable plateau.
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2328 is a reply to message #2308] Mon, 13 October 2008 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 13, 1:31 am, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
> On Oct 9, 9:20 pm, Head Beagle <we...@jbu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sorry to drag this back up, but I wanted to reply.
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > ME:
>
> > > Soccer got started in my hometown when I was a kid when the US Youth
> > > Soccer introduced mini-soccer (small fields, I think 6 players on the
> > > field at a time). My town was small and couldn't support a full fledge
> > > kiddie soccer league, but could support mini soccer. THere was no
> > > middle school team, no high school team, nothing. Now there is a high
> > > school team, women's high school team, several middle school team, a
> > > full fledge kiddie soccer league, and plans to build a massive soccer
> > > complex in town. All this started with mini-soccer. Are there plans to
> > > take Ultimate along a similar path?
>
> > Toad:
> > is there any semi pro team? (we got the hammerheads in wilm......who
> > are about 4 levels under mls i think)
> > ------------------------------------------------------------ ----
>
> > No, my little hometown has nothing resembling a semi-pro soccer team,
> > or semi-pro anything team, and it probably never will. There is a
> > college team and about 1.5 hours away there is a semi pro indoor
> > soccer team that I didn’t know about until one of the local college
> > players that I was friends with made the team.
>
> > HOWEVER, there are a ton of kids playing soccer and a ton of parents/
> > adults (non-parents) who think it is worth a ton of time and money to
> > form a youth soccer association that is raising $350,000+ to build a
> > soccer complex. These parents/adults couldn’t care less about Major
> > League Soccer or the semi-pro indoor team nearby, they just know that
> > kid like playing soccer and they want to provide the opportunity and
> > facilities to make it possible.
>
> > Now, on to the real issue. Two quotes:
>
> > From Catherine:
>
> > -       practical -- there aren't anywhere near close the number of
> > players/
> > ex-players/potential 'referees' out there to be able to keep the
> > sport
> > growing at the youth level.  Kids are going to have to learn to do it
> > themselves (with coaching/training from adults whenever possible).
> > The idea of kiddie leagues with active refs in towns all over the
> > country is completely untenable for at least 10 if not 20 more years.
>
> > From Toad:
> > so then you would have to agree with me on the issue of youth
> > ulti......which is "there aint a whole lot the upa can do.....its
> > pretty much up to the localized efforts of local administraitors to
> > put forth all the time and engergy that will determine what the
> > success rate of the league is".
>
> > First, to Catherine: I think this was meant as a reply to the idea of
> > active refereeing, but I just wanted some clarification on the
> > “completely untenable” part. Where you referring to kiddie leagues
> > with active reffing, or kiddie leagues in general (in terms of time-
> > frame)?
>
> > To toad: I don't think it is entirely a localized issue. There are a
> > lot of resources the UPA can utilize that locals don't have access to.
> > See my proposal below.
>
> > Lets say you have a small ultimate scene in a little town somewhere,
> > lets say, less than 50 players, and they want to create a youth league
> > in their hometown.
>
> > Question #1: What resources does the UPA currently offer that can help
> > this group? What resources SHOULD the UPA offer to this group?
>
> > Hmm..that is a good question, but a poor way to lead into my post.
> > Lets just start with the proposal.
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Proposal: The UPA should provide substantial support to players in
> > small towns trying to start youth ultimate leagues with limited
> > resources.
>
> > Ideal situation: 8 people in Town X decide they want to start a youth
> > ultimate league. They are willing to put in the time and effort, but
> > need support to do it. They don’t know how to market, they don’t have
> > flashy posters, they don’t have easy access to discs, they don’t have
> > easy access to screen printing, etc.
>
> > In steps the UPA to match up to $400 raised by the local group. So,
> > the local group raises $400 (which could be as easy as each of those 8
> > people chipping in $50.00), they UPA matches that $400.
>
> > What can you do with $800
>
> > The start up league could consist of 8 teams with 8 players each (this
> > is counting on the 8 volunteers to coach each team) for a total of 64
> > players. NOTE: I am counting on modified youth rules creating a 5v5
> > game for this particular scenario, not 7v7 (see mini-soccer post
> > above)
>
> > The UPA, with access to greater resources can provide the following
> > for $800.
>
> > 64 youth shirts with a UPA developed/designed logo. All across the
> > country, kids are all wearing UPA shirts. Cost: 64X5= $320 (probably a
> > bit high, actually, if the UPA is mass producing these for lots of
> > leagues across the country)
>
> > 64 custom printed discs Youth League Discs from discraft: 64X5=$320
>
> > Right there is the basics for a league. Discs and shirts for a total
> > of $640. The remaining $160 can go to the following:
>
> > -The UPA can design attractive, well produced posters and other
> > marketing material that would be beyond the capability of local
> > volunteers to make, but would be easy for an organization like the
> > UPA. Standard posters with blanks left for “Sharpie” customization by
> > local volunteers. IE: For more info, call______________ (local fills
> > in phone number)
>
> > -Standardized registration forms for the league
>
> > -Rule books (using the not-yet-developed youth rules)
>
> > I don’t know pricing for those, but probably well under $160
>
> > Now, when those 8 volunteers go to the local parks and rec department,
> > they don’t have to say “We want to start an ultimate league, what do
> > we do??” Instead, they can present a fully funded program that is free
> > to all participants for the first year. All the parks and rec has to
> > do is provide fields and a little bit of support (post it on their
> > website, etc.) Now, granted, that isn’t nothing, but it isn’t that
> > much. Consider it a trial period. If it is successful, next year they
> > can charge $15 a player. This would provide MORE funding than the
> > initial $800. And, if it is successful, you could easily charge more
> > to cover fields and other expenses as the program expands. I just
> > found a youth baseball organization for a little town. Cost: $55 a
> > player, plus the cost of equipment.  Soccer was $50-65 a player.
>
> > Every parks and rec department will jump at this!! A free program for
> > a year. If it works, great they have added a new and exciting activity
> > to the city, if it doesn’t, no big deal, they didn’t lose anything.
>
> > What does the UPA get? Remember their initial investment of $400?? If
> > this program eventually produces 10 people who end up joining the upa
> > at some point in their life at $40 a membership, they have their $400
> > back. Alternatively, if 2 people play 4 years of college and 1 year of
> > club because they started as a kid, they get their $400 back. Anything
> > more than that is a greater return on the investment.  And don’t we
> > have 500,000 dollars to use for something?? That is 20 cities in every
> > state!!
>
> > With 8 teams you can have two sets of two games each Saturday. If you
> > want active refs, the coaches for the non-playing teams can act as
> > active refs. Takes about 2.5 hours total for 7 weeks to play everyone.
>
> > How many cities in the US can find 8 people who will give 2.5 hours a
> > week for 7 weeks and $50 to start a youth ultimate program in their
> > hometown??
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> > Thoughts; I know this is a bit of a rosy picture, it is never as easy
> > as it sounds in typing. Also, I am having a hard time concentrating,
> > so my coherence may be hurting a bit. Hopefully I got the general idea
> > across successfully.
>
> > Any thoughts on this sort of thing?
>
> > I would advocate focusing on mid to smaller cities with this plan, not
> > the places that already have big ultimate scenes (Atlanta, Boston,
> > Denver, etc.)
>
> > Try to grow it in the small towns where t-ball, soccer, and pee wee
> > football are the big events on Saturday morning.
>
> > Feedback from any and all is much appreciated!!!
>
> Your ideal situation of finding 8 people who want to start a youth
> league is not realistic nor is it how any successful (that is, long
> lasting and large) youth leagues have started. The successful leagues
> started with one (two if you're really, really, really lucky) person/
> people who was/were excited and crazy enough to put in a hell of a lot
> of effort and time for 7-10 years to support their dream.
>
> UPA support might help them a bit during the early years, but it's
> probably not all that critical. I think UPA support can help build on
> a foundation to keep the league growing after it's reached somewhat of
> a stable plateau.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

wow, even joe see's that there aint a whole helluva lot that the upa
admin can to to establish, develope and maintain youth ultimate at the
community/grass roots level.

how about a little less focus on youth and a little more focus on the
actual paying members of this association.....namely all the
elliminated sectionalists that are getting shafted by only gettin one
upa sanctioned competition opportunity for their 40 bucks.

how could the upa acministraitors for one second even think about
prioritizing resources, time and effort going to non paying people
while, in an obvious act of neglect, putting the vast majority of the
membership on the back burner. There should be 3 divisions of
nationals events so that every team at sectionals has at least one
more opportunity to compete.
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2385 is a reply to message #2328] Mon, 13 October 2008 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
I'm going to make an exception to my rule of never responding to Toad
because for once Toad is making some sense, although he of course
reads things to fit his ideology rather than what's written.

> wow, even joe see's that there aint a whole helluva lot that the upa
> admin can to to establish, develope and maintain youth ultimate at the
> community/grass roots level.
You did not understand all that I wrote (a kind assessment). I said
IMO the UPA cannot help get a new youth league started. But it can,
and should, help after the league has progressed to a somewhat stable
level. The UPA has already shown it can help youth Ultimate grow, and
I hope it continues to do so.


> how about a little less focus on youth and a little more focus on the
> actual paying members of this association.....namely all the
> elliminated sectionalists that are getting shafted by only gettin one
> upa sanctioned competition opportunity for their 40 bucks.
Here is where he has a very good suggestion IMO. The UPA should
develop a Sectionals format where teams can play more games. And
Sectionals should be as high quality as possible; that is, the UPA
should budget as much $$$ as possible to make them memorable events.


> how could the upa acministraitors for one second even think about
> prioritizing resources, time and effort going to non paying people
> while, in an obvious act of neglect, putting the vast majority of the
> membership on the back burner.  There should be 3 divisions of
> nationals events so that every team at sectionals has at least one ...
More Toad dribble...
Re: Youth Ultimate- How it could work! (BOD Candidates replies encouraged!) and some replys [message #2587 is a reply to message #2154] Tue, 14 October 2008 19:36 Go to previous message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Beagle: I think these are some really good ideas. Whether your
specific ideas would actually work may be a matter of research,
discussion, and practice, and the other posters on this thread have
given some good insight as well.

The point is, this sort of creative thinking is what Ultimate needs at
all levels, and this kind of discussion is very important.
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