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MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2162] Fri, 10 October 2008 05:56 Go to next message
Alex Morrone
Messages: 113
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
I heard some sketchy stuff went down in the game to go to nationals
between AMP and C'Ville because there were no observers. Curious if
anyone was there or heard about it
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2164 is a reply to message #2162] Fri, 10 October 2008 07:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
badhabitultimate
Messages: 2
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
I heard more "sketchy stuff" occured in the MA Women's backdoor....
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2166 is a reply to message #2164] Fri, 10 October 2008 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pete
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> I heard more "sketchy stuff" occured in the MA Women's backdoor....

Sorry can't resist.....

"That's what she said!"
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2167 is a reply to message #2166] Fri, 10 October 2008 07:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
McCargo
Messages: 119
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 10, 10:36 am, Pete <peterjustinwe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I heard more "sketchy stuff" occured in the MA Women's backdoor....
>
> Sorry can't resist.....
>
> "That's what she said!"

http://fapipo.today.com/files/2008/10/1223512827678.jpg
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2172 is a reply to message #2162] Fri, 10 October 2008 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mankind
Messages: 31
Registered: October 2008
Member
On Oct 10, 8:56 am, Alex Morrone <morronea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I heard some sketchy stuff went down in the game to go to nationals
> between AMP and C'Ville because there were no observers.  Curious if
> anyone was there or heard about it

What I heard was that a lot of calls were made which made for a less
enjoyable game for the the sidelines to watch and the sidelines let
the participants know that. However the calls themselves went
uncontested on the field.
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2176 is a reply to message #2172] Fri, 10 October 2008 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acmo
Messages: 1
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 10, 11:09 am, Mankind <tim.johnso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 8:56 am, Alex Morrone <morronea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I heard some sketchy stuff went down in the game to go to nationals
> > between AMP and C'Ville because there were no observers.  Curious if
> > anyone was there or heard about it
>
> What I heard was that a lot of calls were made which made for a less
> enjoyable game for the the sidelines to watch and the sidelines let
> the participants know that.  However the calls themselves went
> uncontested on the field.

I wouldn't necessarily say it was sketchy, it was just the type of
situation it would have been nice to have observers for. Basically
about 3 or 4 travels were called in one point (all of them would have
been scores for Cville). I wasn't watching the throwers foot, so I
can't say for certain that they were or weren't travels, but since you
can't contest a travel unless an observer is there, I'm sure it would
have been nice for Cville to get that second opinion. It was a
critical point in the game. I think at the time Cville was up 10-9.
Amp ended up scoring the point and tied it up versus Cville going up
2. The game ended with Amp winning 13-11.
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2179 is a reply to message #2176] Fri, 10 October 2008 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
baumanj
Messages: 18
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 10, 11:09 am, acmo <amy.morri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 11:09 am, Mankind <tim.johnso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 10, 8:56 am, Alex Morrone <morronea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I heard some sketchy stuff went down in the game to go to nationals
> > > between AMP and C'Ville because there were no observers. Curious if
> > > anyone was there or heard about it
>
> > What I heard was that a lot of calls were made which made for a less
> > enjoyable game for the the sidelines to watch and the sidelines let
> > the participants know that. However the calls themselves went
> > uncontested on the field.
>
> I wouldn't necessarily say it was sketchy, it was just the type of
> situation it would have been nice to have observers for. Basically
> about 3 or 4 travels were called in one point (all of them would have
> been scores for Cville). I wasn't watching the throwers foot, so I
> can't say for certain that they were or weren't travels, but since you
> can't contest a travel unless an observer is there, I'm sure it would
> have been nice for Cville to get that second opinion. It was a
> critical point in the game. I think at the time Cville was up 10-9.
> Amp ended up scoring the point and tied it up versus Cville going up
> 2. The game ended with Amp winning 13-11.

You can contest a travel. The disc still comes back, but it matters
for the stall count.

You can contest any call, but only observers can overrule a call.
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2180 is a reply to message #2176] Fri, 10 October 2008 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doc
Messages: 48
Registered: September 2008
Member
> I wouldn't necessarily say it was sketchy, it was just the type of
> situation it would have been nice to have observers for. Basically
> about 3 or 4 travels were called in one point (all of them would have
> been scores for Cville). I wasn't watching the throwers foot, so I
> can't say for certain that they were or weren't travels, but since you
> can't contest a travel unless an observer is there, I'm sure it would
> have been nice for Cville to get that second opinion. It was a
> critical point in the game. I think at the time Cville was up 10-9.
> Amp ended up scoring the point and tied it up versus Cville going up
> 2. The game ended with Amp winning 13-11.


Overall the game didn't have *that* many calls, and there were very
few contested calls. The crowd was mostly Hooray and Dumpster Fire
players who seemed free and easy with their heckling but it was all of
a good-natured variety.

The pivotal point seemed to me the only one that contained any kind of
protracted dispute, and even that was brief. As i recall, it was
9-11, AMP on offense, C-Ville on D. C-Ville gets the d, works it down
the field about half way and hucks to the Cusy vs. Brandolf matchup
which has been brewing all weekend. Those of you who don't know the
players in question should know that Cusy holds about an 8 inch height
advantage. Cusy catches the huck for the apparent goal, but a travel
is called. The disc works around a few passes, then another throw to
Cusy for another apparent goal, but another travel is called. (As i
recall, the same thrower and marker are involved in all of these
calls.) Disc moves around again, and the same thing happens...
again... throw, goal, travel. (Now, from my vantage point on the far
sideline, the third travel call was legit. The marker had an active
straight up mark and the thrower definitely slid his pivot foot in
order to get his flick around the mark. I wasn't watching the pivot
on the first two calls.) In any case, Cusy is incensed and spikes the
disc off one of our players (accidentally), and the sideline is in a
full throaty froth. The thrower didn't appear to be overly upset at
the call(s)... and by that i mean he wasn't ranting like i would be if
i were him and felt i didn't travel. That doesn't really mean
anything regarding the validity of all three calls, but he remained
level headed about it. After a brief composure period the disc is
checked back in which leads to a quick turn, which AMP converts for
the score making it 10-11 and still a one break game. The cap horn
goes off, and AMP runs the next 3 on D to take the game.

So, its obviously hard to say whether or not ALL of the travel calls
would have been upheld by observers. The only one i was actually
watching appeared to be a travel. I'm sure there are others with
differing points of view, but thats how i saw it. Despite the outcome
of the game Axis players were very gracious afterwards. They are
definitely a class act and definitely deserve a bid to nationals.
Hopefully we can bring a strength bid back for the MA region next
year.

Anyway, thats how i saw it.

Doc
AMP #11
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2192 is a reply to message #2180] Fri, 10 October 2008 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Knappy
Messages: 830
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
I'd like to second Doc's thoughts about Axis. they are an awesome team
with talent & class & great leadership.

I will mention that:

(1) The point was at 9-10, so the eventual Amp score made it 10-10
(There was no Amp 4-0 run, as has been written in a few posts....it
was a 4-1 run.)

(2) The first call was not a travel violation. The violation that was
called was that the thrower called a foul on the pivot, and then
hucked the disc. Disc came back after the completion. I did not hear
an argument from the thrower, & I was only a few yards away. There
were 2 more goals called back after that on travels, both on the same
thrower.

(3) there was also an earlier huck for a goal to a woman called back
on a travel, but I am not sure if that was on this point or not.

Also pertinent: there were experienced observers for the previous rd
(Axis vs Hooray). They might've stuck around for this game, but I
believe that the captains of Axis/Amp decided that they would play w/
out observers. The teams had played against each other several times
over the past 2 years (regional finals 07, UCC 07, Philly invite),
always without incident.




On Oct 10, 1:37 pm, Doc <drpul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I wouldn't necessarily say it was sketchy, it was just the type of
> > situation it would have been nice to have observers for.  Basically
> > about 3 or 4 travels were called in one point (all of them would have
> > been scores for Cville).  I wasn't watching the throwers foot, so I
> > can't say for certain that they were or weren't travels, but since you
> > can't contest a travel unless an observer is there, I'm sure it would
> > have been nice for Cville to get that second opinion.  It was a
> > critical point in the game.  I think at the time Cville was up 10-9.
> > Amp ended up scoring the point and tied it up versus Cville going up
> > 2.  The game ended with Amp winning 13-11.
>
> Overall the game didn't have *that* many calls, and there were very
> few contested calls.  The crowd was mostly Hooray and Dumpster Fire
> players who seemed free and easy with their heckling but it was all of
> a good-natured variety.
>
> The pivotal point seemed to me the only one that contained any kind of
> protracted dispute, and even that was brief.  As i recall, it was
> 9-11, AMP on offense, C-Ville on D.  C-Ville gets the d, works it down
> the field about half way and hucks to the Cusy vs. Brandolf matchup
> which has been brewing all weekend.  Those of you who don't know the
> players in question should know that Cusy holds about an 8 inch height
> advantage.  Cusy catches the huck for the apparent goal, but a travel
> is called.  The disc works around a few passes, then another throw to
> Cusy for another apparent goal, but another travel is called.  (As i
> recall, the same thrower and marker are involved in all of these
> calls.)  Disc moves around again, and the same thing happens...
> again... throw, goal, travel.  (Now, from my vantage point on the far
> sideline, the third travel call was legit.  The marker had an active
> straight up mark and the thrower definitely slid his pivot foot in
> order to get his flick around the mark.  I wasn't watching the pivot
> on the first two calls.)  In any case, Cusy is incensed and spikes the
> disc off one of our players (accidentally), and the sideline is in a
> full throaty froth.  The thrower didn't appear to be overly upset at
> the call(s)... and by that i mean he wasn't ranting like i would be if
> i were him and felt i didn't travel.  That doesn't really mean
> anything regarding the validity of all three calls, but he remained
> level headed about it.  After a brief composure period the disc is
> checked back in which leads to a quick turn, which AMP converts for
> the score making it 10-11 and still a one break game.  The cap horn
> goes off, and AMP runs the next 3 on D to take the game.
>
> So, its obviously hard to say whether or not ALL of the travel calls
> would have been upheld by observers.  The only one i was actually
> watching appeared to be a travel.  I'm sure there are others with
> differing points of view, but thats how i saw it.  Despite the outcome
> of the game Axis players were very gracious afterwards.  They are
> definitely a class act and definitely deserve a bid to nationals.
> Hopefully we can bring a strength bid back for the MA region next
> year.
>
> Anyway, thats how i saw it.
>
> Doc
> AMP #11
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2193 is a reply to message #2180] Fri, 10 October 2008 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T
Messages: 110
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> on the first two calls.)  In any case, Cusy is incensed and spikes the
> disc off one of our players (accidentally),

Incidentally, with observers, Kusy may very well have been kicked out
of the game at that point, depending on their interpretation of
"accidentally." Though you could certainly argue he would not have
reached that level of frustration with observers there.

T (who observed finals the round before)
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2195 is a reply to message #2192] Fri, 10 October 2008 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Platts-Mills
Messages: 1
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
As the thrower against whom the travel calls were made, I just wanted
to correct/clarify/observe that:

1. On my first huck, Fido hit my throwing forearm as I released; I
called foul, he did not contest. It was not a foul prior to the throw
on the pivot as Knappy suggested. However, simultaneously there was a
travel call (I believe this was made by the dump defender?). I didn't
think I traveled (go figure!). I feel like the foul certainly could
have contributed to the foot movement if there was any, because he hit
me pretty hard.

2. All this about "few of the calls were contested" as Doc mentioned
is a bit silly since contesting a low-stall travel isn't worth the
bother. I honestly don't remember whether I contested them or not-
they were all early in the stall count. Doc observed that I didn't
lose my cool- but I'll assure Doc that I was as frustrated as you
would expect someone who had three straight scores called back on a
_vital_ point in a hard-fought game to go would be. I can only
remember one other travel call on me all season. So it's hard for it
not to seem a bit out of proportion- but to be clear, I'm really not
in a position to say whether I traveled or not on all of those throws.
Maybe an observer would have been.

3. In addition, there was a dropped dump pass by AMP, with a foul
called and contested by our defender. From my angle (guarding the
thrower), it looked like a drop- but he said he had a second chance at
the disc before the defender hit his hand. I'm not sure how an
observer would have called this. This all adds up to a lot of tough
calls on an important point.

4. From experience, this is the third time that I have seen captains
agree to not use observers for a game-to-go to nationals. Each time,
someone has ended up regretting the decision. I really don't think
this has anything to do with the teams involved- as has been
mentioned, we have had several hard-fought games with AMP over the
last few years without observers and it hasn't really been an issue. I
just think that if you have the opportunity to have observers, but
decline it, this usually leads to some amount of frustration and
regret. I would argue, easier to just say- look, sure we might not
need them- but let's have them anyway. Or, better yet, let's get to
the point where we can mandate having observers for all such games.

I should clarify that in this case, we were informed (Troy can weigh
in if this is wrong) by the AMP captain that Troy did not want go
stick around since he had to drive back to NC- so we weren't going to
force him to hang around.

Finally, bottom line is that Hooray and AMP both played great on
Sunday, and I'm confident that they can bring a strength bid back to
our region for next year.

Good luck to everyone at nationals.

James
Axis #16
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2196 is a reply to message #2195] Fri, 10 October 2008 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oliver
Messages: 2
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
As the captain of Axis I have spent too much of my time this week
second guessing a number of potentially vital decisions made during
our loss to AMP in the back-door finals. The vast majority of these
decisions concern subbing and tactics (such as changing the force), I
even regret a fairly basic end-zone call (that I made) out of a time-
out just because it didn't work. I was, however, left disappointed
after the game and remain disappointed that no observers were
available for our tournament. In both the finals and the 2nd place
finals we were asked by opposing teams (Hooray and Amp) to forgo
observers because no one had shown up. In the Hooray game we decided
that since Troy (who is certified) and Garrett (who is not but has
been playing before the disc became round) were available and willing
that we should have them observe. We did agree that they would not be
calling time for our game and only be available for in and out of
bounds and if calls were sent to them. It worked out extremely well,
the finals were fairly played and the observers were only used a few
times. I believe that twice they declined to make a call because they
had a bad angle and the disc was sent back. No problems.

In the backdoor final against AMP it is my distinct recollection that
I was told that Garrett had already left for North Carolina and that
Troy was willing to observe but would much rather get on the road. I
agreed to forgo observers based on this knowledge, the memory of a
very clean game the day before with AMP and a growing confidence in my
team's ability to win games. Alas, the game was extremely close and
there were a number of calls that I believe were at least slightly
influenced by the score (and the sense of urgency and intensity
created by said close score). This is natural. . . I don't think that
anyone on AMP makes bad calls to win games, they just aren't that sort
of team. However, having contested calls (such as the travels
described above) which a number of "impartial" spectators commented on
to me (not just hecklers of who there were plenty) sows doubt.
Unfortunately for Axis we did a very poor job of regrouping after we
failed to break AMP on such a long and contentious point. This is my
fault for not getting everyone's heads back on to finish the
job. . .but it would have been an easier task at 11-9 then 10-10.

Our games with AMP this weekend were the highlight of our season and
we continue to have the up-most respect for the way they play the
game. In fact, in many ways we have used them as the model of the type
of team we want to play like and I think this weekend we proved that
we have made strides in our game. To me, the take home for this thread
is that it is extremely important as co-ed gets deeper (as with other
divisions) to find observers for top games as it relieves pressure and
generally (in my experience) provides a much more enjoyable game for
everyone who participates or watches.

Kick some ass in Florida AMP (and Hooray) and we'll see everyone next
season.

-oliver
Axis
#12





On Oct 10, 3:41 pm, James Platts-Mills <jame...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As the thrower against whom the travel calls were made, I just wanted
> to correct/clarify/observe that:
>
> 1. On my first huck, Fido hit my throwing forearm as I released; I
> called foul, he did not contest. It was not a foul prior to the throw
> on the pivot as Knappy suggested. However, simultaneously there was a
> travel call (I believe this was made by the dump defender?). I didn't
> think I traveled (go figure!). I feel like the foul certainly could
> have contributed to the foot movement if there was any, because he hit
> me pretty hard.
>
> 2. All this about "few of the calls were contested" as Doc mentioned
> is a bit silly since contesting a low-stall travel isn't worth the
> bother. I honestly don't remember whether I contested them or not-
> they were all early in the stall count. Doc observed that I didn't
> lose my cool- but I'll assure Doc that I was as frustrated as you
> would expect someone who had three straight scores called back on a
> _vital_ point in a hard-fought game to go would be. I can only
> remember one other travel call on me all season. So it's hard for it
> not to seem a bit out of proportion- but to be clear, I'm really not
> in a position to say whether I traveled or not on all of those throws.
> Maybe an observer would have been.
>
> 3. In addition, there was a dropped dump pass by AMP, with a foul
> called and contested by our defender. From my angle (guarding the
> thrower), it looked like a drop- but he said he had a second chance at
> the disc before the defender hit his hand. I'm not sure how an
> observer would have called this. This all adds up to a lot of tough
> calls on an important point.
>
> 4. From experience, this is the third time that I have seen captains
> agree to not use observers for a game-to-go to nationals. Each time,
> someone has ended up regretting the decision. I really don't think
> this has anything to do with the teams involved- as has been
> mentioned, we have had several hard-fought games with AMP over the
> last few years without observers and it hasn't really been an issue. I
> just think that if you have the opportunity to have observers, but
> decline it, this usually leads to some amount of frustration and
> regret. I would argue, easier to just say- look, sure we might not
> need them- but let's have them anyway. Or, better yet, let's get to
> the point where we can mandate having observers for all such games.
>
> I should clarify that in this case, we were informed (Troy can weigh
> in if this is wrong) by the AMP captain that Troy did not want go
> stick around since he had to drive back to NC- so we weren't going to
> force him to hang around.
>
> Finally, bottom line is that Hooray and AMP both played great on
> Sunday, and I'm confident that they can bring a strength bid back to
> our region for next year.
>
> Good luck to everyone at nationals.
>
> James
> Axis #16
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2199 is a reply to message #2196] Fri, 10 October 2008 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T
Messages: 110
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> In the backdoor final against AMP it is my distinct recollection that
> I was told that Garrett had already left for North Carolina and that
> Troy was willing to observe but would much rather get on the road.

Garrett and I were in the same car, and we had not left yet. I
discussed that our other riders prefer that we leave, but as I
presented it to the TD before the game (who plays for AMP) we were
willing to stick around if they wanted us. He said the teams didn't
feel it necessary.

T
Re: MA Mixed Regionals 2nd Place game [message #2202 is a reply to message #2199] Fri, 10 October 2008 15:54 Go to previous message
slang
Messages: 2
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 10, 5:36 pm, T <t-...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > In the backdoor final against AMP it is my distinct recollection that
> > I was told that Garrett had already left for North Carolina and that
> > Troy was willing to observe but would much rather get on the road.
>
> Garrett and I were in the same car, and we had not left yet.  I
> discussed that our other riders prefer that we leave, but as I
> presented it to the TD before the game (who plays for AMP) we were
> willing to stick around if they wanted us.  He said the teams didn't
> feel it necessary.
>
> T

As the player who was matched up with kusy, all i know was that i was
getting skied time and time again on that one play by him. By the last
travel call and last catch by kusy, i just wanted the play to end. But
if you ask him, he and i had some battles all weekend in both of our
games. Axis and Kusy were all very spirited and one hell of a team to
play. It's a shame that the MA region won't send 3 teams to nationals
because I believe Cville Hooray and Amp can all finish as one of the
top teams at nationals this year.


Brando #13 Amp
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