Forum Search:
RSD No Spam
rec.sport.disc without the spam


Home » RSD » RSD Posts » How Change Happens.
How Change Happens. [message #15930] Wed, 18 March 2009 16:56 Go to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
During a receny visit to North Carolina from Colorado, a friend and I
got into a discussion on medical marijuana. I asked how these laws
were passed. He said, “It starts at the grass roots political level
and took years to get the right politicians who shared similar views
to make their way through the political food chain to elected office
at a level high enough to influence change.”

While I have no verifiable evidence that this is how it came to
fruition it makes sense. In order for Ultimate to see true
revolutionary change on the elite levels of competition, it will take
a player with the communication skills, competitive history, a lot of
patience, and an ability to persuade. These folks have to know what
battles to choose to fight and when to bow down. They will most
likely start as a sectional coordinator, then regional coordinator,
Youth Organizer…and so on.

Who is that person? Well we know ain’t our buddy Mr. Leber. While he
has the vision, he lacks the patience, tact, and political know-how to
bring two different camps together. Maybe there is someone in your
region or section that could bring radical change to the game.

One thing is certain, it must be achieved by the “What about Bob?”
method. Baby Steps. And may the force be with the man or woman that
takes on that challenge.
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15934 is a reply to message #15930] Wed, 18 March 2009 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
throw
Messages: 743
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
who is Mr. Leber?

Hank & Co.
www.thisisultimate.com
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15944 is a reply to message #15934] Wed, 18 March 2009 20:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peterson
Messages: 82
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Mar 18, 8:54 pm, i...@ThisIsUltimate.com wrote:
> who is Mr. Leber?
>

You would know him as Daddy.
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15961 is a reply to message #15930] Wed, 18 March 2009 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sideline
Messages: 51
Registered: September 2008
Member
Change won't ever happen as long as the UPA board members are funded
by and beholden to the massive Spirit Zealot lobby and its huge
multinational corporations. I have it on good authority that the
Fortune 500 company, United Spirit Zealots Inc (stock tracker code:
SOTG) recently donated over $150,000 to the campaign of one of the
more well-known 'at large' board candidates and is lobbying hard to
push through their agenda. This includes giving propaganda such as
"10 things you should know about Spirit" to schoolchildren as young as
eight. Eight-year-olds, dude. What chance is there for progress
against this insidious spirit machine?
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15968 is a reply to message #15930] Thu, 19 March 2009 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Mar 18, 4:56 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> During a receny visit to North Carolina from Colorado, a friend and I
> got into a discussion on medical marijuana.  I asked how these laws
> were passed. He said, “It starts at the grass roots political level
> and took years to get the right politicians who shared similar views
> to make their way through the political food chain to elected office
> at a level high enough to influence change.”
>
> While I have no verifiable evidence that this is how it came to
> fruition it makes sense.  In order for Ultimate to see true
> revolutionary change on the elite levels of competition, it will take
> a player with the communication skills, competitive history, a lot of
> patience, and an ability to persuade.  These folks have to know what
> battles to choose to fight and when to bow down.  They will most
> likely start as a sectional coordinator, then regional coordinator,
> Youth Organizer…and so on.
>
> Who is that person?  Well we know ain’t our buddy Mr. Leber.  While he
> has the vision, he lacks the patience, tact, and political know-how to
> bring two different camps together.  Maybe there is someone in your
> region or section that could bring radical change to the game.
>
> One thing is certain, it must be achieved by the “What about Bob?”
> method.  Baby Steps.  And may the force be with the man or woman that
> takes on that challenge.

Your reasoning that changing Ultimate will take the same process that
legalized medical marijuana is flawed. The medical use of marijuana
came about via local laws in areas that were very liberal. It has not,
and probably will not, happen on a national level because the majority
does not want it. Most of us accept that, and a few of us continue to
rail against it as if it's a conspiracy which of course it is not
(some people just don't want it). However, there is no "local level"
in Ultimate that can pass laws separate from the national
organization, and the majority of UPA members do not want the new laws
desired by the local NC advocates. If there were separate states in
Ultimate, perhaps NC would be the first in the "Ultimate nation" to
pass laws requiring refs... and any other laws they want so they can
be in the limelight.

So the NC advocates are a bit like the current GOP. They yell a lot,
but they have little ability to do anything. Go Obama.
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15970 is a reply to message #15968] Thu, 19 March 2009 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wagenwheel
Messages: 323
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Mar 19, 4:41 am, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
> On Mar 18, 4:56 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > During a receny visit to North Carolina from Colorado, a friend and I
> > got into a discussion on medical marijuana.  I asked how these laws
> > were passed. He said, “It starts at the grass roots political level
> > and took years to get the right politicians who shared similar views
> > to make their way through the political food chain to elected office
> > at a level high enough to influence change.”
>
> > While I have no verifiable evidence that this is how it came to
> > fruition it makes sense.  In order for Ultimate to see true
> > revolutionary change on the elite levels of competition, it will take
> > a player with the communication skills, competitive history, a lot of
> > patience, and an ability to persuade.  These folks have to know what
> > battles to choose to fight and when to bow down.  They will most
> > likely start as a sectional coordinator, then regional coordinator,
> > Youth Organizer…and so on.
>
> > Who is that person?  Well we know ain’t our buddy Mr. Leber.  While he
> > has the vision, he lacks the patience, tact, and political know-how to
> > bring two different camps together.  Maybe there is someone in your
> > region or section that could bring radical change to the game.
>
> > One thing is certain, it must be achieved by the “What about Bob?”
> > method.  Baby Steps.  And may the force be with the man or woman that
> > takes on that challenge.
>
> Your reasoning that changing Ultimate will take the same process that
> legalized medical marijuana is flawed. The medical use of marijuana
> came about via local laws in areas that were very liberal. It has not,
> and probably will not, happen on a national level because the majority
> does not want it. Most of us accept that, and a few of us continue to
> rail against it as if it's a conspiracy which of course it is not
> (some people just don't want it). However, there is no "local level"
> in Ultimate that can pass laws separate from the national
> organization, and the majority of UPA members do not want the new laws
> desired by the local NC advocates. If there were separate states in
> Ultimate, perhaps NC would be the first in the "Ultimate nation" to
> pass laws requiring refs... and any other laws they want so they can
> be in the limelight.
>
> So the NC advocates are a bit like the current GOP. They yell a lot,
> but they have little ability to do anything. Go Obama.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Good analogy Joe. This isn't about limelight or any other NC
initiatives. This is about standardizing the game at the highest
competitive levels allowing athletes to focus on competing not
officiating.

I believe there is a local level in Ultimate within the ranks of the
UPA. It's how they run their seasons. You have sectional
coordinators. Yes, they have to abide by the rules adapted by the
UPA, but who is to say that person one day will be an elected at large
board member, then one day executive director who can implement change
quietly and softly. Observers making active up/down calls. Travel
Calls. Stall count. Instant Referral System on any contested
call...Who is to say this isn't already happening. Potlatch, Santa
Cruz in 96, ACC Challenge...Folks, change is coming and this old fart
has nothing to do with it. Officiating is coming to Ultimate, it's
just a matter of time. North Carolina is the Obama of Ultimate. The
underdog, the free thinker, the revolutionary. So when the zebra is
on your field, you'll see me in the stands with one of those shirts on
that says yes we did.
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15972 is a reply to message #15970] Thu, 19 March 2009 03:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff
Messages: 338
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Somewhere in most of Obama's speeches you will find a reference to
personal responsibility for one's actions. It is an attempt to
address a society that has evolved to the point where no one is
responsible for any of their actions unless caught by the police, SEC
or IRS. Know what you need to do, don't try to cheat or shortcut your
way to getting what you want and if you have a disagreement, talk it
over like adults, settle it and move on the next task. Being
responsibile to yourself and your community for your actions.

On Mar 19, 6:11 am, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 4:41 am, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 18, 4:56 pm, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > During a receny visit to North Carolina from Colorado, a friend and I
> > > got into a discussion on medical marijuana.  I asked how these laws
> > > were passed. He said, “It starts at the grass roots political level
> > > and took years to get the right politicians who shared similar views
> > > to make their way through the political food chain to elected office
> > > at a level high enough to influence change.”
>
> > > While I have no verifiable evidence that this is how it came to
> > > fruition it makes sense.  In order for Ultimate to see true
> > > revolutionary change on the elite levels of competition, it will take
> > > a player with the communication skills, competitive history, a lot of
> > > patience, and an ability to persuade.  These folks have to know what
> > > battles to choose to fight and when to bow down.  They will most
> > > likely start as a sectional coordinator, then regional coordinator,
> > > Youth Organizer…and so on.
>
> > > Who is that person?  Well we know ain’t our buddy Mr. Leber.  While he
> > > has the vision, he lacks the patience, tact, and political know-how to
> > > bring two different camps together.  Maybe there is someone in your
> > > region or section that could bring radical change to the game.
>
> > > One thing is certain, it must be achieved by the “What about Bob?”
> > > method.  Baby Steps.  And may the force be with the man or woman that
> > > takes on that challenge.
>
> > Your reasoning that changing Ultimate will take the same process that
> > legalized medical marijuana is flawed. The medical use of marijuana
> > came about via local laws in areas that were very liberal. It has not,
> > and probably will not, happen on a national level because the majority
> > does not want it. Most of us accept that, and a few of us continue to
> > rail against it as if it's a conspiracy which of course it is not
> > (some people just don't want it). However, there is no "local level"
> > in Ultimate that can pass laws separate from the national
> > organization, and the majority of UPA members do not want the new laws
> > desired by the local NC advocates. If there were separate states in
> > Ultimate, perhaps NC would be the first in the "Ultimate nation" to
> > pass laws requiring refs... and any other laws they want so they can
> > be in the limelight.
>
> > So the NC advocates are a bit like the current GOP. They yell a lot,
> > but they have little ability to do anything. Go Obama.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Good analogy Joe.  This isn't about limelight or any other NC
> initiatives.  This is about standardizing the game at the highest
> competitive levels allowing athletes to focus on competing not
> officiating.
>
> I believe there is a local level in Ultimate within the ranks of the
> UPA.  It's how they run their seasons.  You have sectional
> coordinators.  Yes, they have to abide by the rules adapted by the
> UPA, but who is to say that person one day will be an elected at large
> board member, then one day executive director who can implement change
> quietly and softly.  Observers making active up/down calls.  Travel
> Calls.  Stall count.  Instant Referral System on any contested
> call...Who is to say this isn't already happening.  Potlatch, Santa
> Cruz in 96, ACC Challenge...Folks, change is coming and this old fart
> has nothing to do with it.  Officiating is coming to Ultimate, it's
> just a matter of time.  North Carolina is the Obama of Ultimate.  The
> underdog, the free thinker, the revolutionary.  So when the zebra is
> on your field, you'll see me in the stands with one of those shirts on
> that says yes we did.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15981 is a reply to message #15972] Thu, 19 March 2009 04:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> Somewhere in most of Obama's speeches you will find a reference to
> personal responsibility
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


--yes.
i love that.
personal responsibility.
i believe whole heartedly in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

it is the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for defenders to know when the disc
is in play....
they can do this by paying attention.

no ONE person should have to clang his hammer of Thor to the ground in
order to replace PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY of the defense to know when
the disc is in play.
we, as free thinking, attentive athletes should take the PERSONAL
RESPONSIBILITY of knowing when the disc is in play....and to be ready
when it is.

no ONE person tapping the disc to the ground should have to tell us
when we are playing.

abolish the ground tap.

pay attention.
be ready on your OWN......or face the consequences of the offense
using their fiendish tricks and misconceptions to fool us....
Re: How Change Happens. [message #15995 is a reply to message #15981] Thu, 19 March 2009 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff
Messages: 338
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
yep - after the offense signals that play has started with a ground
check they do not have to worry about some defender making a call
because they were too lazy to get back into position taking away the
transition that the defense now offense has earned

But back to Wagenwheel's point ... there are a lot of people out there
who are not ready any of this culture war crap between persons who
used to play and used to organize (and still do to some extent) who
are learning what it takes to put together a good tournament, how to
budget for the expenses and thinking about what improvements they can
experiment with ... most of those people seem to be concerned about
greater opportunity for play

On Mar 19, 7:55�am, ageric...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Somewhere in most of Obama's speeches you will find a reference to
> > personal responsibility
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> --yes.
> i love that.
> personal responsibility.
> i believe whole heartedly in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
>
> it is the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for defenders to know when the disc
> is in play....
> they can do this by paying attention.
>
> no ONE person should have to clang his hammer of Thor to the ground in
> order to replace PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY of the defense to know when
> the disc is in play.
> we, as free thinking, attentive athletes should take the PERSONAL
> RESPONSIBILITY of knowing when the disc is in play....and to be ready
> when it is.
>
> no ONE person tapping the disc to the ground should have to tell us
> when we are playing.
>
> abolish the ground tap.
>
> pay attention.
> be ready on your OWN......or face the consequences of the offense
> using their fiendish tricks and misconceptions to fool us....
Re: How Change Happens. [message #16006 is a reply to message #15995] Thu, 19 March 2009 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peterson
Messages: 82
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Mar 19, 9:22 am, Jeff <Jffr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> yep - after the offense signals that play has started with a ground
> check they do not have to worry about some defender making a call
> because they were too lazy to get back into position taking away the
> transition that the defense now offense has earned

Unless they put the disc in play by touching the ground at the wrong
spot or they travel. Then the defense can make a call lazy or not.

Peters
Re: How Change Happens. [message #16015 is a reply to message #15970] Thu, 19 March 2009 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Mar 19, 3:11 am, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Good analogy Joe.  This isn't about limelight or any other NC
> initiatives.  This is about standardizing the game at the highest
> competitive levels allowing athletes to focus on competing not
> officiating.
>

I said limelight because of how often and repetitively you, Geric and
Toad make your points. Why else do you repeat the same points over and
over and submit the most posts (by far) every month? Do you think the
rest of us are hard of hearing? Is it impossible that we have thought
about your comments and do not support them? BTW, thanks for a very
clear, well written reply.
Re: How Change Happens. [message #16018 is a reply to message #16015] Thu, 19 March 2009 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nova.ultimate
Messages: 42
Registered: February 2009
Member
Just have someone run for BoD.

To get an outside non-majoritarian candidate on the board, you'd need
that person to take a slow and steady and concerned approach with
regards to the election, and shape themselves as a viable candidate
with clear plans.

aka Most people on RSD need serious help.
Re: How Change Happens. [message #16019 is a reply to message #16015] Thu, 19 March 2009 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
faddy
Messages: 310
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Mar 19, 12:39 pm, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 3:11 am, Wagenwheel <ewagensel...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Good analogy Joe.  This isn't about limelight or any other NC
> > initiatives.  This is about standardizing the game at the highest
> > competitive levels allowing athletes to focus on competing not
> > officiating.
>
> I said limelight because of how often and repetitively you, Geric and
> Toad make your points. Why else do you repeat the same points over and
> over and submit the most posts (by far) every month? Do you think the
> rest of us are hard of hearing? Is it impossible that we have thought
> about your comments and do not support them? BTW, thanks for a very
> clear, well written reply.

without such topics we'd have to discuss cleats, jerseys and the
required numbering of uniforms during the series. Oh and co-ed
ultimate.
Re: How Change Happens. [message #16037 is a reply to message #15995] Thu, 19 March 2009 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> yep - after the offense signals that play has started with a ground
> check they do not have to worry about some defender making a call
> because they were too lazy to get back into position taking away the
> transition that the defense now offense has earned
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---the O should never have to worry about a call that's a because of a
lazy defender.

does that have anything to do with the ground tap?
Re: How Change Happens. [message #16039 is a reply to message #16015] Thu, 19 March 2009 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
agerics20
Messages: 8115
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
> I said limelight because of how often and repetitively you, Geric and
> Toad make your points.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---who is Geric?
Re: How Change Happens. [message #16079 is a reply to message #15968] Thu, 19 March 2009 17:00 Go to previous message
Tim-Haymaker
Messages: 29
Registered: March 2009
Junior Member
> Your reasoning that changing Ultimate will take the same process that
> legalized medical marijuana is flawed. The medical use of marijuana
> came about via local laws in areas that were very liberal. It has not,
> and probably will not, happen on a national level because the majority
> does not want it. Most of us accept that, and a few of us continue to
> rail against it as if it's a conspiracy which of course it is not
> (some people just don't want it). However, there is no "local level"
> in Ultimate that can pass laws separate from the national
> organization,

Isn't the "local level" of ultimate individual TD's running
tournaments with their own adaptations of the rules? Isn't that what
the folks in NC are doing? Seems like what it will take to move from
local changes to national changes is enough people liking the local
changes and data being available to show that that's the case. Or
data being available to show that those changes bring about objective
improvements to the game.

How about an email survey sent out to everyone who's participated in
one of these "refserver" tournaments asking if they like the changes?
Show the UPA that something like 85% of those who've played under
these rules thought it was better, and do so with some credibility,
and you'd be getting somewhere. It wouldn't be hard to do. Just get
the captains of each team to send the survey to their teams.

-Tim W.
Haymaker
Previous Topic:Mixed Masters Easterns in Boston
Next Topic:Stanford Invite Photos
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Thu Feb 27 01:37:38 PST 2020
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 3.0.0RC2.
Copyright ©2001-2009 FUDforum Bulletin Board Software