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Home » RSD » RSD Posts » USAU is hurting women's teams (Problems with the Club series restructure)
USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135698] Mon, 09 September 2013 12:04 Go to next message
shanzt
Messages: 2
Registered: September 2013
Junior Member
With recent USAU restructuring of their strength bid system, regions with fewer than 17 teams are now limited to an 8 team regionals. While this typically poses little issue to open or mixed, which are already well-developed divsions and regions can easily amass 20+ teams, this poses a serious problem for women's ultimate, which already struggles with recruiting new players and retaining them. Developing a division requires promotion not restriction. But for women's, where regions rarely if ever have the requisite 17 teams, this new system only restricts. More often than not, a region may find themselves with only 10 teams (and therefore be restricted to a 8 team Regionals), leaving young developing teams looking in from the outside.

Case and point, Philadelphia's Proceed with Caution (PWC), a second year developing team will be unable to compete in Regionals, after being knocked out of Regionals contention this weekend by a team that hadn't played a tournament all summer, and therefore was not ranked to earn a strength bid for the mid-Atlantic section. This other team was made up of master's players, all of whom have been to club and/or master's nationals and easily could have earned said strength bid. Even more disappointing is the fact that the other section has 4 bids for 5 teams, 4 of whom PWC has beaten, posting a 6-2 record against them. The two losses came in back-to-back games against VA Rebellion when they only had 10 players, but had beaten them 3 weeks earlier. PWC fully deserves to go to Regionals. If USA Ultimate really wants to foster the growth of women's ultimate, why are they preventing a deserved team that just wants to keep developing from continuing their season?

I do not have to play on PWC to see how unjust the policy is. This new system completely goes against promoting women's ultimate and equality. Why would you ever choose to limit women's to only 8 teams, rather than the 16 that exists for mixed and open? Women's tournaments already constantly struggle to even have enough teams show up. As someone previously pointed out, this year, there was a steep decline in the number of women's team participating in Club Sectionals. A team wants to play and has clearly proven themselves, yet you want to limit them and say no? How can you possibly claim to promote women's ultimate when you are turning down teams that clearly deserve it?
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135704 is a reply to message #135698] Mon, 09 September 2013 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mike gerics[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: June 2013
Senior Member
> With recent USAU restructuring of their strength bid system,
> regions with fewer than 17 teams are now limited to an 8
> team regionals. While this typically poses little issue to
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---a region....that has 16 teams....can't have a regionals with 16 teams?
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135705 is a reply to message #135704] Mon, 09 September 2013 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jughandle10
Messages: 109
Registered: April 2011
Location: Mercer County New Jersey
Senior Member
As an aside, Open has 12 teams not 16 for the mid-atlantic.

Semantics aside, regionals is something that should be earned. Earned on the field and not with a petition. Earned by winning games at sectionals.

There is nothing unjust about what happened to PWC. They finished dead last in their section, and didnt win a single game. They weren't good enough. Is it a shame that they beat some teams in the capital section who did get in? Sure. But the reality is, there are 8 bids to regionals, and 10 teams. 80% of the teams make regionals, which is a higher percentage than USA-U would want.

Sure, there are policies that are hurting women's ultimate, but this one isn't one of them. PWC should have recruited venus, the devyl ycc team, and whoever else they could have to try have gotten enough teams to get a region that had 12 teams qualifying instead of 8.



Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135706 is a reply to message #135705] Mon, 09 September 2013 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jughandle10
Messages: 109
Registered: April 2011
Location: Mercer County New Jersey
Senior Member
http://www.reddit.com/r/ultimate/comments/1m0eo1/help_philad elphias_proceed_with_caution_go_to/

Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135715 is a reply to message #135698] Mon, 09 September 2013 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eddiegelfen
Messages: 43
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Monday, September 9, 2013 5:55:09 PM UTC-4, Shannon wrote:
> A team wants to play and has clearly proven
>
> themselves, yet you want to limit them and say no? How can
>
> you possibly claim to promote women's ultimate when you are
>
> turning down teams that clearly deserve it?
>
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

First off, it is a fair point that from a development standpoint and at a developmental stage, maybe Sectionals should just be a convenient local playing opportunity, and then those same teams get to play Regionals, the Nationals qualifier that includes more teams. That is contrary to Sectionals being a qualifier tournament where teams earn a spot at Regionals. And there is also some question of where or whether pickup teams fit into the Series. I think in this scenario, not-very-competitive pickup women's teams that helped raise the team count and create a larger Regionals would be welcomed and celebrated. But any time a pickup team swoops in and snatches a bid from a legitimate practicing, traveling team, the non-qualifiers are likely to resent it, and I suppose they can choose where to direct that resentment.

True that under the current system, step 1 (maybe) to proving oneself worthy of Regionals is to earn a strength bid or recruit teams to expand Regionals and unlock more bids, and step 2 is to win the necessary games at Sectionals. But under the old system, step 1 would be to recruit enough teams to get a size bid, and step 2 was to win the necessary games at Sectionals. I suppose taking the old system approach still applies in some way, though step 2 is still the same.

As for USAU claiming to promote women's Ultimate, I mean, I guess there's at least some basis for the claim that they do some of that...

http://www.usaultimate.org/assets/1/Page/USAU_Resource_Guide _P2-Rec_and_Retain_Women_08-09-10.pdf
http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/development/women/coach ing_workshop_rebate.aspx
http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/development/women/clini c_kit.aspx
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/bowdoin-wins-2013-d-iii-coll ege-womens-championship/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqcOUVisG7M&list=PLCrRvIx w-XKK1yUft__vm2WQNYDD7mvUw&index=5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JTHpXsf5_I&list=PLCrRvIx w-XKK1yUft__vm2WQNYDD7mvUw&index=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TaXoWxQsLg&list=PLCrRvIx w-XKK1yUft__vm2WQNYDD7mvUw&index=12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyPmR5DLiT8&list=PLCrRvIx w-XKK1yUft__vm2WQNYDD7mvUw&index=16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF3VMiwLMV0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjB2sVa2JQ&feature=youtu .be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGbSfUMm4PQ
Gender Equity Policy: http://www.usaultimate.org/news/statement-from-the-usa-ultim ate-board-of-directors-jan-2013/
Bid Allocation Limits: http://www.usaultimate.org/competition/youth_division/guidel ines.aspx#YCC

http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-division-iii-college-ch ampionships--saturday-recap-womens/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-division-iii-college-ch ampionships-preview--womens/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-us-open-sunday-recap--w omens-division/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-us-open-saturday-recap- -womens-division/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-us-open-friday-recap--w omens-division/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-u.s.-open-thursday-reca p--womens-division/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-us-open--womens-divisio n-preview/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/oregon-fugue-wins-2013-colle ge-womens-championship/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-college-championships-- sunday-womens-recap/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-college-championships-- saturday-womens-recap/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-college-championships-- friday-womens-recap/
http://www.usaultimate.org/news/2013-college-championships-- womens-division-preview/

-EDG
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135728 is a reply to message #135715] Tue, 10 September 2013 06:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
from the reddit thread: My team should petition usau to send us to nationals regardless of our regionals results.

then later a bunch of "all the women think there is a flaw in the system but you men keep comparing our division to yours"

umm . . . there may be a flaw in the system but you should probably find a better example than the team that went o-fer at sectionals and thinks they still deserve to go to regionals.

people forget that regionals is for qualifying for nationals. chances are if you were 5th out of 4 teams in your section, you weren't going to qualify for nationals. or day 2 or regionals. OR REGIONALS. grab some fields, host a tournament. then you can have the opportunity to help other lower tier teams play and develop.

i'm no huge fan of the USAU but you're way far off on this one.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135729 is a reply to message #135698] Tue, 10 September 2013 06:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donovd
Messages: 241
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
It's not like the rules were a surprise. This structure still encourages sections to recruit more teams to participate.

If PWC has just recruited two more teams to play at sectionals they would have earned their section another bid (half the bids to regionals are given on size). They went into the weekend knowing that their were 4 teams and 3 bids, that meant they needed to win a game to move on in the postseason. They didn't.

PWC could have also asked 13ossypants to get their games in. Chesapeake Open was in August, as well as the Old Line Classic. If 13ossypants went to one of those PWC could have hosted a one day to get them another 3 or 4 games. I would be surprised if that conversation had ever come up. And if it did, and 13ossypants said no thanks, then I think the frustration should be directed at 13ossypants.

10 teams in the whole region, I don't see how letting them all make the next stage of the postseason encourages women's ultimate. To me that would just tell the women's ultimate community, "don't worry about playing all summer, we'll put some tourneys together just for you in the fall". This way you have to play in the summer to earn the right to move on.

I think this format forces teams to be proactive, women will have to get involved at the organizer level, throw tournaments in the summer. It forces the people on the ground that care to be the ones out their encouraging others to come out.

In no way is this specific issue USAU's fault or responsibility to try and correct. The series is for finding a national champion, not just another tourney. USAU is not ending PWC's season, if PWC wants to play another tourney, host it and invite some teams on their level.

Now the discussion that is worth having IMO is who is to blame for so few women's teams at sectionals? The format changed yes, but it still encourages sections to grow in size to earn more bids. I can't remember but it seems like to me that Sectionals is earlier this year and a lot less college teams attended.

If USAU is to blame for a lack of growth in the women's division then that is something we should fix, but one team advancing or not is not a reason for lack of growth.

DanD

Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135731 is a reply to message #135729] Tue, 10 September 2013 07:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
I can't remember but it seems like to me that Sectionals is earlier this year and a lot less college teams attended.


with USAU planning on migrating the club season to the summer (Toad's idea) I bet you can plan on seeing a LOT more of this. across both open and womens divisions.

maybe that fall UOA season will take off. Mike, time to step up and fill in this void.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135735 is a reply to message #135731] Tue, 10 September 2013 08:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rrudnic
Messages: 194
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:03:03 AM UTC-4, thefan wrote:
> Quote:
>
> > I can't remember but it seems like to me that Sectionals
>
> > is earlier this year and a lot less college teams
>
> > attended.
>
>
>
>
>
> with USAU planning on migrating the club season to the
>
> summer (Toad's idea) I bet you can plan on seeing a LOT more
>
> of this. across both open and womens divisions.
>
>
>
> maybe that fall UOA season will take off. Mike, time to
>
> step up and fill in this void.
>
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com


I think this will balance out as it moves forward, you will have few to no college teams, but all those players will be at home for the summer and will field pickup teams from their local community. It will just take time to balance.

As for the origin of this thread, USAU isn't wrong on this, every womens team that shows up to sectionals shouldn't get a bid to regionals, bids are earned through playing well and beating someone. Quite frankly if PWC got a bid to regionals it would be an injustice to a team like Scandal who spent all year beating teams. What if Scandal had to play PWC at regionals and had their best player get injured in that game, thereby greatly reducing their chances of winning Nationals? At that point we'd be saying Scandal could have won it all this year, but they had that injury against a team who didn't deserve to be at regionals because they couldn't even win a game in their section. I can't believe USAU would let a team like that move forward to regionals.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135739 is a reply to message #135735] Tue, 10 September 2013 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ultimatesamwood
Messages: 68
Registered: December 2008
Member
A question and a point:

Question: 10 Women's teams in the Region. Why not skip both Sectionals and have a 10-team Regional? (USAU already does something similar with ConfRegionals in some College divisions.)

Point: The Fan and Rudnic and others have mentioned "deserving" to move to the next level of play, how qualifying for Regionals grants one a shot at Nationals, and other similar arguments which basically boil down to: "the rules are out there, they are fair enough, there are things you can do other than complaining." A good point, but when you focus on that, you're detracting from the original argument: developing women's teams.

PWC had no shot at winning Nationals--in fact, 7 of the 8 teams in Women's Mid-Atlantic Regionals have zero shot at winning Nationals. While the main point of the Club Series is to crown a champion, more teams, especially women's and college, use it for development. If you're going to bash PWC for wanting to attend Regionals for team development, you have to bash every non-contending team for playing in the series because they are there for a motivation other than coming in first.

We all know there are many (many!) fewer women's tournaments than men's and mixed. Therefore, the Club Series has added import for young women's teams that men's/mixed don't experience: it isn't as easy for PWC to find, say, four nearby tournaments with comparable competition to attend in the regular season at it is for a beginning men's/mixed team.

Last point: any women (other than original poster) have any thoughts on this? I'm guessing ALL the commenters on this thread are, ahem, men.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135741 is a reply to message #135735] Tue, 10 September 2013 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
southwestultimate
Messages: 184
Registered: May 2009
Senior Member
The flaw in your argument about who Scandal should have to play at regionals is that PWC had already beat several teams from the other section who did make Nationals. So now Scandal will most likely have to play an even worse team.
The second problem here is that apparently the regular season really matters now, but not as much as how many low level teams you can drag out to sectionals so that you can beat up on them to advance. Having size bids negate strength bids kind of nullifies the regular season.
And having sectionals the first weekend of September is defintely a deterrent for college teams.

But I do agree with you that the series is designed to find a national championship, not for the benefit of the average member or average team.

USAU could easily have a 9 team regionals, but it seems like they are using a carrot and a stick approach.
The carrot is that if you play sanctioned tournaments all summer long, you earn bids for your section. And if successfully convince other teams to pay their USAU fees and come to sectionals so that you can beat up on them, you also increase your chances to advance.
The stick is that if don't support sanctioned tournaments all summer and don't convince some other teams to participate, then you get punished by having more bids go to other sections that did do those things. And if all of the sections in your region don't do those things, that the region gets punished by becoming smaller.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135742 is a reply to message #135739] Tue, 10 September 2013 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
damn if i'm not going to side with USAU twice in one day.

an organization cannot try to cater to the elite teams and crown a champion and work on development in the same series. it's enough of a stretch that USAU tries to do both at all. one might argue that they need to split off one or the other to some subset or side organization but the SERIES is about crowning a champion. camps and hat tournaments and practice and scrimmages and other tournaments are about development. the series is about crowning a champion.

and what difference does it make if the posters are men? a team went o-fer at sectionals and finished dead last. 3 of the 4 teams are going to regionals. if they're just going to let everyone in, what's the point of having it at all?
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135748 is a reply to message #135739] Tue, 10 September 2013 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mozaic
Messages: 141
Registered: February 2011
Senior Member
ultimatesamwood wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 12:14


...While the main point of the Club Series is to crown a champion, more teams, especially women's and college, use it for development. If you're going to bash PWC for wanting to attend Regionals for team development, you have to bash every non-contending team for playing in the series because they are there for a motivation other than coming in first.



The USAU runs the series to crown a national champion. The fact some teams and communities use that series to help develop their players and teams does not mean that the purpose of the series changes from a high level.

And PWC state their goal was to make regionals. You make regionals by qualifying for Regionals by wining game(s) at Sectionals. If you don't win any games at Sectionals, then what is the point of having a goal if you get their by not earning it when it counts.

Just because teams win games during the season, does not mean they deserve to be at regionals. Not all teams go to regular season tournaments with full strength teams. Many are still figuring out lines and player selection. Most teams have the goal of being ready at Sectionals and Regionals.

If you can't win a single game at Sectionals, you haven't earned a spot a regionals. Looking on Score reporter, it shows PWC attended only two tournaments, both in August. Perhaps they played unsanctioned tournaments as well, but if not, why not? There were many tournaments in June and July that they could have attended that would provide more experience and would help develop their team and they would likely play teams from more than just their section and region. If your goal is to develop that team as stated, play those tournaments, or run your own.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135755 is a reply to message #135748] Tue, 10 September 2013 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TheCarr
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
Two Points:

Competitive viewpoint:
The series is about eliminating teams through a progression of tournaments to eventually crown a national champion. It's the playoffs. So why allow a team that didn't play in the regular season to play in the playoffs? USAU should implement a rule that to play in the series you have to play in a sanctioned regular season tournament. So while PWC doesn't deserve a bid to regionals per the elimination system USAU implemented, I don't think 13ossypants deserves a bid to regionals because they didn't even play in the regular season.

Developmental Viewpoint:
When I started playing ultimate in college in New England, sectionals was effectively a college tournament with 1-3 club teams that crushed us. The other (~10-15) teams there were all college teams like mine, many going X-Y-Z, getting their rookies some early experience. Now with the series slightly earlier, many sections have 0 college teams participating. As long as multiple college teams attend, sectionals is a great early season tournament for a college team. Not only is it usually a short drive, rookies get exposed to both tournament culture and high level ultimate very early, which I think increases their odds of continuing to play ultimate and growing the sport. The womens teams in this section could have encouraged the local college teams to enter and thereby earn their section more bids. USAU should also encourage college teams to play club sectionals.

USAU needs to decide what the club series, and what club sectionals, are. Are they solely for crowning a national champion? Or is there a developmental aspect as well, where new/young/college teams should be encouraged to enter?
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135760 is a reply to message #135755] Tue, 10 September 2013 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
USAU needs to decide what the club series, and what club sectionals, are. Are they solely for crowning a national champion? Or is there a developmental aspect as well, where new/young/college teams should be encouraged to enter?


no. players need to accept that the USAU has already decided what the club series is and what club sectionals are. a pathway towards crowning a champion. and pathway towards qualifying for the most elite ultimate tournament in the world.

it USED to be a certain way, not because sectionals was a developmental platform but because the timing made it an opportunity to help develop your team. it IS and is becoming more and more something a little different. buckle up. this is only the beginning.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135762 is a reply to message #135760] Tue, 10 September 2013 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Knappy
Messages: 830
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
USA Ultimate long since decided on this, it's right there on their home page. Compete/competition is there a lot: nothing about development.

http://www.usaultimate.org/triplecrowntour/#postseason


"After the regular season, teams may participate in a post-season of events narrowing in scope.

The entry level is Sectionals, where eligible teams register for and compete in their Sectional Championship for the right to advance to the Regional Championship.

Teams at the Regional Championships in turn compete to advance to the USA Ultimate National Championships which will be held Oct 17-20 in Frisco, TX."

Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135763 is a reply to message #135698] Tue, 10 September 2013 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
so, what you're telling me is that going to sectionals and losing every game doesn't earn you the right to go to the next level? even in the women's division?
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135764 is a reply to message #135760] Tue, 10 September 2013 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TheCarr
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
thefan wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 15:12
Quote:
USAU needs to decide what the club series, and what club sectionals, are. Are they solely for crowning a national champion? Or is there a developmental aspect as well, where new/young/college teams should be encouraged to enter?


no. players need to accept that the USAU has already decided what the club series is and what club sectionals are. a pathway towards crowning a champion. and pathway towards qualifying for the most elite ultimate tournament in the world.



The fact that teams are allowed to enter sectionals (the playoffs) without playing the regular season then seems out of touch with the type of competition format USAU is trying create.

What about a restriction limiting sectionals to teams that participated in the regular season? (and by participate, I mean played at least 1-3 sanctioned games, not the 10 needed to get ranked)

It might hurt development of new teams and will prevent college teams from entering, but it address the complaints of PWC and might even encourage/increase participation in the regular season.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135766 is a reply to message #135764] Tue, 10 September 2013 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgd.mitch
Messages: 1207
Registered: January 2009
Senior Member
seems like a good compromise would be to let anyone attend sectionals, but only those that meet a certain threshold for sanctioned regular season games eligible to advance to regionals. This would be for future years, guidelines shouldn't change mid series.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135768 is a reply to message #135731] Tue, 10 September 2013 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anakin gerics
Messages: 1362
Registered: November 2009
Senior Member
> maybe that fall UOA season will take off.
~~~~~~~~~~~



--the UOA Fall CLUB Season.
huhm....that sounds alright.
a well officiated...Fall Season...for club teams.
it's probably what the sport has been yearning for.....
yep.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135772 is a reply to message #135764] Tue, 10 September 2013 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mozaic
Messages: 141
Registered: February 2011
Senior Member
TheCarr wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 18:41
thefan wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 15:12
Quote:
USAU needs to decide what the club series, and what club sectionals, are. Are they solely for crowning a national champion? Or is there a developmental aspect as well, where new/young/college teams should be encouraged to enter?


no. players need to accept that the USAU has already decided what the club series is and what club sectionals are. a pathway towards crowning a champion. and pathway towards qualifying for the most elite ultimate tournament in the world.



The fact that teams are allowed to enter sectionals (the playoffs) without playing the regular season then seems out of touch with the type of competition format USAU is trying create.

What about a restriction limiting sectionals to teams that participated in the regular season? (and by participate, I mean played at least 1-3 sanctioned games, not the 10 needed to get ranked)

It might hurt development of new teams and will prevent college teams from entering, but it address the complaints of PWC and might even encourage/increase participation in the regular season.


No, this proposed solution wouldn't work, as the team playing only 3 games wouldn't "earn" the bid for the section which seems to be PWC's gripe. They played games, earned a bid to regionals for the section which a better team then won by beathing them.

And you say this new solution hurts development of new teams, yet PWC is claiming that this is the reason why they should progress - to help development. Can't have it both ways.

Allowing any team in the section to attend Sectionals makes the championship a truly open competition where any deserving team can show up on the day, win, progress and potentially be national champion. All the regular season games are simply seeding and warm up for the actual series (plus determining allocation of strength bids for the sections and regions).
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135786 is a reply to message #135772] Wed, 11 September 2013 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rrudnic
Messages: 194
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
This is really simple if you want to develop a team then you play all summer, you play a tourney in june, july, and august, and then go to sectionals with a group that has developed chemistry and skill all summer. If that team has actually developed over the course of the summer through practice and the tournaments they attended then you win games at sectionals and earn the right to go to regionals. Regionals is earned its not some gift you get for showing up, that would remove all credibility from the whole championship if we just gave spots to crappy teams who don't win games. You don't go to sectionals with a club team that has been in existence all summer and gone to other tournaments to develop your team, if you are then you don't know how to run a team and have the wrong goals. Its way to late at that point to develop anything you need to be prepared and capable of playing good games. Development occurs all summer, Sectionals and beyond is for competition, if you can't compete you don't move on.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135804 is a reply to message #135786] Wed, 11 September 2013 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bunniculaultimate
Messages: 3
Registered: March 2013
Junior Member
Allowing all teams in a small section to go to regionals is not helping the women's ultimate community, but ultimately hurting it. As a woman who plays club ultimate, I not only want to see more women who can play ultimate, I want to see more women who can play ultimate competitively. USAU's effort to provide equal play does not mean equal playing time, but equal opportunity. No mixed or open team that lost every game at sectionals would advance to regionals, except under extenuating circumstances. Allowing this for a women's section only creates entitled women's teams.

Preventing teams who lost all of their games at sectionals from advancing should not leave women's teams feeling like they're "looking in from the outside", but provide inspiration for improvement and development during the off season.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135806 is a reply to message #135698] Wed, 11 September 2013 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
women's ultimate player finally responds to calls for women's ultimate player to respond.

echos response from men's ultimate players who think that advancing to the next level after going o-fer helps nobody.

people in the dark realize that women's ultimate is different from men's ultimate in only one way. women instead of men.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135820 is a reply to message #135806] Thu, 12 September 2013 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
southwestultimate
Messages: 184
Registered: May 2009
Senior Member
Everybody saying that Regionals should be earned and that not everybody should make it would have a great point if it wasn't for the elephant in the room which is the membership fee. Paying $50 or even $35 extra to participate in Sectionals and Regionals equates to approximately a double tournament fee for those two tournaments. But paying the same fee and not advancing to Regionals, means that you have tripled the tournament fee for Sectionals. That is a deterrent, both to teams competing at Sectionals and to forming in the first place. Teams shouldn't think of it this way, because actual tournament fees are a small percentage of the overall costs of playing tournaments but the fact of the matter is that most players are still hung up on low tournament fees. And the same thing applies to college teams; it makes no sense to force your new recruit to pay a membership fee which won't even cover them in the spring semester just to play one tournament. Nor does it make sense to spend team money so that the rookie doesn't have to.
If USAU was serious about growing women's Ultimate they would try a little experiment:

Announce that in 2014 and 2015, any female non USAU member can participate in the Women's division of the fall series without having to pay the full membership fee, but can instead pay the one time fee. If their team qualifies for Regionals, they would have to pay the one time fee again for that tournament. They might lose some money initially from the players that pay the one time fee rather than the full fee, but the number of players participating would rise to make up the difference. And in year 2 even more players would participate, so overall revenue would actually increase.

USAU's current model of rewarding whoever does the best job of recruiting teams to pay them money does nothing to promote competitiveness at Regionals.
It seems like everybody has accepted the concept that teams can "earn" bids for their section, but it could just as easily be looked at as a section being punished for not having enough teams participating in the TCT. (Does anybody know if Womens Master Regionals and Nationals games would count towards the 10 game requirement if a WM team decided to also participate in the fall?)
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135821 is a reply to message #135698] Thu, 12 September 2013 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
keg
Messages: 126
Registered: December 2008
Senior Member
I think it was already mentioned, but the thing that strikes me as a little silly is having sectionals to eliminate one team. This thread spawned because there was a 4 team section where only one team was prevented from advancing. I believe the total number of women teams in the mid-atlantic is 10 teams. At that point, shouldn't they just skip sectionals and go straight to regionals? Does it really help the competitive nature of regionals to keep 2 teams out?

I think if there are less than 16 teams in a region, they should skip sectionals and go straight to regionals. If the teams would like to get in another tournament to make up for missing sectionals, they could easily organize a one day round robin.

- Keg
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135823 is a reply to message #135821] Thu, 12 September 2013 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rrudnic
Messages: 194
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
"Everybody saying that Regionals should be earned and that
not everybody should make it would have a great point if it
wasn't for the elephant in the room which is the membership
fee. Paying $50 or even $35 extra to participate in
Sectionals and Regionals equates to approximately a double
tournament fee for those two tournaments."

You are only paying the membership fee for 1-2 tournaments if you didn't play all summer. Every tournament we played in or considered this summer was sanctioned, the only tournaments not sanctioned were small ones. Just skim through SR from June until Sectionals you will notice 2/3+ of all the tournaments listed are sanctioned. This would only apply to college players if they were freshman since anyone else would have already paid for the year in order to be eligible for the college series. This isn't really a big deal.



On Thursday, September 12, 2013 3:50:01 PM UTC-4, keg wrote:
> I think it was already mentioned, but the thing that strikes me as a little silly is having sectionals to eliminate one team. This thread spawned because there was a 4 team section where only one team was prevented from advancing. I believe the total number of women teams in the mid-atlantic is 10 teams. At that point, shouldn't they just skip sectionals and go straight to regionals? Does it really help the competitive nature of regionals to keep 2 teams out?
>
> I think if there are less than 16 teams in a region, they should skip sectionals and go straight to regionals. If the teams would like to get in another tournament to make up for missing sectionals, they could easily organize a one day round robin.
>
> - Keg

I'm not sure where everyone is pulling 16 from, I know that was the old standard but it's not really the norm at least this year and last. This year only 1 mens regional is set up for 16 teams most are 12 a couple are 8. In womens most are 7-8 with one having 16.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135824 is a reply to message #135820] Thu, 12 September 2013 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
southwestultimate wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 15:36
Everybody saying that Regionals should be earned and that not everybody should make it would have a great point if it wasn't for the elephant in the room which is the membership fee. Paying $50 or even $35 extra to participate in Sectionals and Regionals equates to approximately a double tournament fee for those two tournaments. But paying the same fee and not advancing to Regionals, means that you have tripled the tournament fee for Sectionals.


Isn't the complaint that the team not going to Regionals played all summer and played regular season events and proved that it deserved a spot at Regionals?

I don't think that the elephant you described is in this room.

It's not true for a team that played Regular Season events all summer, where membership was required. Or for college players, who already paid their dues for the spring College Series. Or for players who take advantage of other opportunities, like coaching clinics, Observer clinics, etc. Or, in part, for teams that sanction their practices to satisfy their field site's insurance requirements.

-Colin (speaking in my personal capacity, not representing USAU)
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135826 is a reply to message #135824] Thu, 12 September 2013 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
Teams shouldn't think of it this way, because actual tournament fees are a small percentage of the overall costs of playing tournaments but
i'm going to defend this way of thinking and suggest the USAU alter their structure for a tiny percentage of players who might only be paying the membership fee for one tournament.

I mean, c'mon USAU. Where's your Spirit?
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135828 is a reply to message #135824] Thu, 12 September 2013 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
southwestultimate
Messages: 184
Registered: May 2009
Senior Member
2/3+ of all the tournaments listed on USAU's website are sanctioned. Imagine that. Until just recently, every tournament on score reporter was sanctioned. The fact is that there are still more unsanctioned tournaments than sanctioned ones.
And we aren't talking about PWC or other teams that had already joined USAU, we are talking about all the teams that didn't show up at Sectionals, or no longer exist because USAU keeps adding more and more hoops to jump through. Which is totally fine for a championship series, but which also makes it less of a developmental series.

Apparently the 1% of the members who bother to vote (<1000 people out of the 5,000,000 who play in the US) are in favor of these changes. I just want the average member to realize that USAU is paying most of its attention to elite Ultimate and minimal attention to the average player, and adjust their expectations accordingly.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135831 is a reply to message #135828] Thu, 12 September 2013 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
southwestultimate wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 17:18
And we aren't talking about PWC or other teams that had already joined USAU, we are talking about all the teams that didn't show up at Sectionals, or no longer exist because USAU keeps adding more and more hoops to jump through.


That's gotta be the royal "we" you're using. In the room that the rest of us are in, there is no elephant. Just talking about the topic of the thread, which has PWC as the example demonstrating a possible problem with the system of bid allocation, strengths bids, and Regionals scaling.

A thread about USA Ultimate not supporting certain divisions because it charges membership dues (in each division) and holds a series of qualifying events would be a different topic.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135832 is a reply to message #135831] Thu, 12 September 2013 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
southwestultimate
Messages: 184
Registered: May 2009
Senior Member
Its not a royal we, We refers to the group composed of myself and the people who responded to my comment about why the current system doesn't encourage participation. If you want to talk about teams that are already part of the system, please feel free to do so, there is no requirement for you to respond to my comments before posting your own. The title of this thread is "USAU is hurting women's teams" and based on the original poster's comments perhaps it should have read "USAU policies are hurting the women's division" but my comments address the subject of the shrinking USAU women's division, so I don't feel the need to start a new thread. Perhaps you can start a new thread entitled "How I became a USAU apologist."
I do have a new thread for you regarding field size and sideline spacing at USAU events
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135833 is a reply to message #135739] Thu, 12 September 2013 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
ultimatesamwood wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 12:14

Question: 10 Women's teams in the Region. Why not skip both Sectionals and have a 10-team Regional? (USAU already does something similar with ConfRegionals in some College divisions.)


Well, that also introduces other possible development-related criticisms. It reduces the number of playing opportunities, and it imposes a larger travel distance as a barrier to entry for teams wanting to participate in the Series.

I can see circumstances where you'd want to do one or the other. So the above is just an answer to your question with some reasons for not skipping Sectionals and going straight to Regionals.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135840 is a reply to message #135833] Thu, 12 September 2013 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Knappy
Messages: 830
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Trent, we understand you are trying to promote your freefallseries agenda, but I think you are conflating two issues here. I agree with Colin that the elephant you see in the room is your own hallucination.

btw, Colin is not just a USAU apologist, he's a board member.



Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135844 is a reply to message #135840] Thu, 12 September 2013 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
The fact is that there are still more unsanctioned tournaments than sanctioned ones.
And we aren't talking about PWC or other teams that had already joined USAU, we are talking about all the teams that didn't show up at Sectionals, or no longer exist because USAU keeps adding more and more hoops to jump through. Which is totally fine for a championship series, but which also makes it less of a developmental series.


no. we're not talking about that. we're talking about teams that show up at sectionals.

there are only extra hoops to jump through if you want to play in the championship series. i fail to see how there are any more hoops to jump through in any way shape or form except for playing in the championship series. the series is a championship series and teams have always been eliminated from it based on their final seed at qualifying tournaments. it was never. ever. a development series. never. the rules for participation are exactly the same as they have been for many, many years. many years. the have restructured the elite level and only the elite level. from a developmental standpoint, nothing has changed.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135845 is a reply to message #135844] Thu, 12 September 2013 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
southwestultimate
Messages: 184
Registered: May 2009
Senior Member
okay thefan, you can keep talking about the teams that show up at sectionals. Please let us know when you have anything new to say on the subject. If you want to contribute something new, maybe you can get a representative from USAU to back up your claim that the fall series is not and has never been a developmental series. I happen to agree with you that the series is not currently a developmental series, but I disagree with your statement that is never was.
My issue is with the people who want to keep pretending that it is a developmental series and that USAU is making decision based on what is best for their average member. And knappy yes, I am promoting the alternative fall series I am part of, but two major reasons that the North American Spirit Championships even exists is because of the extra burdens(hoops) that the TCT places on teams and because making players pay the full membership fee in order to participate in the series acts as a barrier for some players and teams. The number of players and teams and tournaments in the country goes up every year, but participation in the USAU fall series keeps going down. So you can pretend that the membership fee doesn't matter and keep talking about the teams that are playing Sectionals instead of the ones that aren't. Not sure what you will accomplish, but please continue.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135847 is a reply to message #135832] Thu, 12 September 2013 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
southwestultimate wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 19:48
Its not a royal we, We refers to the group composed of myself and the people who responded to my comment about why the current system doesn't encourage participation.


I guess i just didn't see those responses. Maybe you could quote a few of them.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135850 is a reply to message #135847] Fri, 13 September 2013 00:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
southwestultimate
Messages: 184
Registered: May 2009
Senior Member
Well it started with the second comment after my post about the current system not encouraging participation and continued til you made the comment about the royal we, or until now. If you really want to quibble, you can just count the ones that quoted my comment. I believe that under most definitions, if you quote somebody else's comment in your comment, then you are responding.
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135858 is a reply to message #135850] Fri, 13 September 2013 05:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anakin gerics
Messages: 1362
Registered: November 2009
Senior Member
I believe that under
> most definitions, if you quote somebody else's comment in
> your comment, then you are responding.
~~~~~~~~~~~

---so....you're not responding????
Re: USAU is hurting women's teams [message #135863 is a reply to message #135833] Fri, 13 September 2013 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
ultimatesamwood
Messages: 68
Registered: December 2008
Member
colinmcintyre wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 19:52
ultimatesamwood wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 12:14

Question: 10 Women's teams in the Region. Why not skip both Sectionals and have a 10-team Regional? (USAU already does something similar with ConfRegionals in some College divisions.)


Well, that also introduces other possible development-related criticisms. It reduces the number of playing opportunities, and it imposes a larger travel distance as a barrier to entry for teams wanting to participate in the Series.

I can see circumstances where you'd want to do one or the other. So the above is just an answer to your question with some reasons for not skipping Sectionals and going straight to Regionals.


Thanks for attempting to answer, Colin, but I'm just not seeing it. First, can we agree that "reduced number of playing opportunities" and "larger travel fees" are inversely proportional? As the number playing opportunities decrease, so, too, do the travel fees.

In Regions with fewer than 16 teams, you can do one of three things:

1) Hold Sectionals, only a certain number advance to Regionals (current model)

2) Scrap Sectionals, everyone plays at Regionals

3) Hold Sectionals, everyone advances to Regionals

For "developing" teams such as PWC that aren't good enough to advance to an 8-team Regional, there is no difference between 1 & 2 insofar as you are playing only one Series tournament. So why not adopt model 2? If for the reasons that you state above (which I maintain are more or less mutually exclusive), then why not adopt model 3?

Model 3 is redundant. What is the point of holding Sectionals when everyone advances to Regionals? (Answer: by playing well at Sectionals, you earn an easier path at Regionals. This is the only reason USAU has given as to why Pool Play at Club Nationals matters, so I'm extrapolating here.)

Model 1 provides no benefit to teams unable to advance to Regionals (what is the difference between attending only Sectionals versus only Regionals?). It is an annoyance to teams that will easily qualify for Regionals.

Lastly, and I guess I didn't emphasize this enough, why is the ConfRegional model right for the College division, but the SectRegional model is bad for Club?
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