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Conflict of Interests? [message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 09:22 Go to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
This weekend at the Old Dominion Qualifier in Axton, VA there occurred an interesting set of circumstances that could, with a different set of teams involved, set up a serious problem.

Before I explain, let me be clear that i'm not complaining or placing blame or trying in any way do anything but create a conversation about circumstances in our sport that could create an issue.

ok, so, the ODQ, part of the Savage Ultimate Summer Series, this weekend. there is some money on the line. maybe $2500 for the winner. maybe more, i'm not sure. anyways, Boneyard, a local Masters team takes a skeleton crew of 12 dudes, battles through Saturday to the winners bracket, pulls off the upset in the Quarters and Semis. upon completion of our semifinal upset we are notified by the TD that the winner of the other Semi, FL United, wants to play Tanasi, the team we just upset. something about a regional rivalry, select flight status and strength bid considerations.

Never mind that a team of 30, 40, and 50 somethings had been playing with 12 dudes in the heat for 2 days and were looking for a graceful way to not chase a bunch of young fast guys around for another hour and a half to pull off the miracle win (prove it wouldn't have happened).

is there a conflict of interest in hosting tournaments with cash prizes as well as trying to accommodate this new USAU Triple Crown structure?

another interesting question that was brought up is . . . What seed will Boneyard receive at open regionals this year in the southeast region?
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132096 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 09:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T H
Messages: 1142
Registered: July 2009
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Senior Member
Unrelated but related, I heard Boneyard picked up open(non masters) players with them on Sunday?

Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132097 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
we did pick up a guy for the last game and a quarter on Sunday to replace the guy with the broken ankle, the old guy with the bad back, the older guy with the bad knees and the even older guy who was only in for Saturday anyways.

have you any thoughts that relate to the topic at hand?

let's imagine for a moment that instead of 11 masters dudes and an open guy, we had rolled in there with our entire roster of 26 and made the finals. what would have been the reaction then had we been asked to step out of the finals so that two select flight/regional rival teams could play for the prize money?
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132098 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alex Peters
Messages: 287
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Sounds like FL United forfeits the finals, Boneyard is awarded the prize money, and then FL United and Tanasi play a 3rd place game.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132099 is a reply to message #132098] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
This is the exact line of reasoning that has led to a series of team emails being sent around the Boneyard group announcing ourselves as the Champs this weekend.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132100 is a reply to message #132097] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T H
Messages: 1142
Registered: July 2009
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Senior Member
thefan wrote on Mon, 24 June 2013 13:06
we did pick up a guy for the last game and a quarter on Sunday to replace the guy with the broken ankle, the old guy with the bad back, the older guy with the bad knees and the even older guy who was only in for Saturday anyways.

have you any thoughts that relate to the topic at hand?

let's imagine for a moment that instead of 11 masters dudes and an open guy, we had rolled in there with our entire roster of 26 and made the finals. what would have been the reaction then had we been asked to step out of the finals so that two select flight/regional rival teams could play for the prize money?


If the other teams asked you to step out of the finals, a response along the lines of, if you wanted us out of the finals you should've beaten us is probably the correct answer, right? If Tanasi & Fl united wanted to play each other so badly perhaps they should've added a 4th round to Sunday?
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132101 is a reply to message #132100] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
The other team didn't ask, the TD told us.

and while that would certainly have been the response they would have gotten, it's a bit more complicated than that. The USAU set up this (dumb as fuck) triple crown series and gave all these tournaments all these (dumb as fuck) designations as this flight or that. What happens when there is a clear conflict of interest between getting the teams in the designated flight on the field to play one another versus letting the team who earned the spot in the finals play for the prize money? which is the higher priority? Does the out of flight team get to say, "hey if you wanted to play, you should have won." or do the in flight teams and/or TD get to tell the out of flight team that they're lucky to be there anyways?

This isn't meant to hate on Tanasi, or FL United, or Todd from Savage. this is a real situation that came up and *COULD* have been a big source of contention.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132102 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jt
Messages: 65
Registered: February 2009
Member
On Monday, June 24, 2013 12:23:03 PM UTC-4, thefan wrote:
> This weekend at the Old Dominion Qualifier in Axton, VA
>
> there occurred an interesting set of circumstances that
>
> could, with a different set of teams involved, set up a
>
> serious problem.
>
>
>
> Before I explain, let me be clear that i'm not complaining
>
> or placing blame or trying in any way do anything but create
>
> a conversation about circumstances in our sport that could
>
> create an issue.
>
>
>
> ok, so, the ODQ, part of the Savage Ultimate Summer Series,
>
> this weekend. there is some money on the line. maybe $2500
>
> for the winner. maybe more, i'm not sure. anyways,
>
> Boneyard, a local Masters team takes a skeleton crew of 12
>
> dudes, battles through Saturday to the winners bracket,
>
> pulls off the upset in the Quarters and Semis. upon
>
> completion of our semifinal upset we are notified by the TD
>
> that the winner of the other Semi, FL United, wants to play
>
> Tanasi, the team we just upset. something about a regional
>
> rivalry, select flight status and strength bid
>
> considerations.
>
>
>
> Never mind that a team of 30, 40, and 50 somethings had been
>
> playing with 12 dudes in the heat for 2 days and were
>
> looking for a graceful way to not chase a bunch of young
>
> fast guys around for another hour and a half to pull off the
>
> miracle win (prove it wouldn't have happened).
>
>
>
> is there a conflict of interest in hosting tournaments with
>
> cash prizes as well as trying to accommodate this new USAU
>
> Triple Crown structure?
>
>
>
> another interesting question that was brought up is . . .
>
> What seed will Boneyard receive at open regionals this year
>
> in the southeast region?
>
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

Sounds like at the very least, boneyard should have been awarded at least half of the prize money.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132103 is a reply to message #132102] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
JT, that result is unfair to FL United who would have then been denied the chance to win ALL of the prize money for themselves by beating Boneyard in the Final.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132104 is a reply to message #132103] Mon, 24 June 2013 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
T H
Messages: 1142
Registered: July 2009
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Senior Member
This is confusing, will be interesting to see how things play out in the rest of the Savage series...there's 2-3 more cash events right?
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132105 is a reply to message #132103] Mon, 24 June 2013 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jt
Messages: 65
Registered: February 2009
Member
On Monday, June 24, 2013 1:51:02 PM UTC-4, thefan wrote:
> JT, that result is unfair to FL United who would have then
>
> been denied the chance to win ALL of the prize money for
>
> themselves by beating Boneyard in the Final.
>
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

I understand that jimmy but you guys still should of had a shot since it was not your decision to play. albeit it a long shot.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132112 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mmac215
Messages: 1
Registered: June 2013
Junior Member
It seems like it should be up to the TD to make sure these ranking important games occur in pool play, or however the tournament is set up
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132113 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Parinella
Messages: 126
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
A. Is this fair?
The website http://summerseries.savageultimate.com/register/2013-old-dom inion-qualifier says $500 cash + $500 merch credit for the winner, $200 of each for the runnerup, not "something like $2500".

Are there official rosters? Was the guy you picked up on Sunday on another team that was eliminated?

That being said, it seems unreasonable that the TD should make that decision without at least offering you guys a buyout.

B. What else does this mean for the rest of us?
The Boston Invite this weekend also had competing interests. The primary goal of the local organization (of which I am not part of) is to run a good tournament for all the teams. It was not one of the USAU-designated top level tournaments and the nationals-level teams in the region chose not to attend for the first time in this event's 15+ year history (though I don't know how much those are related). The tournament itself was a mix of "regular season" teams and "event only" teams, and the regular season teams were at various stages of the tryout process. If I read the USAU rules correctly, if you play a tournament with players who are not on your final roster, those games will not count for you in the rankings. Teams had to submit FINAL ROSTERS by Wednesday. My team was told that since some of us might be playing together in the fall, it would be "best" for us to register as a regular season team.

One of the people at Tournamental Central admitted this was a pain and surmised that in the future they might be forced by the system to hold separate divisions for "regular season" and "event only" teams.

I can see that this is part of the USAU master plan to professionalize the sport, and that in five years time, this might seem like the normal way of doing things, but for now it doesn't seem to work for the players.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132115 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigg_nate
Messages: 28
Registered: November 2011
Junior Member
Similar thing happened to us at ECC last year (but not for first place, and with no money on the line). We insisted to the TD that we'd rather stick with the original format, but it took a lot of arguing.

Bottom line is that it's fine for the TD to ask. But if any team prefers the original format, that should be their right. If the TD wants inter-region matchups, they should draw up a format that encourages them BEFORE the tournament.

Thanks,
- Nate
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132117 is a reply to message #132095] Mon, 24 June 2013 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Jimmy P, my bad on the numbers. I may have remembered a line like "total cash and prizes" and transformed it over time into a cash purse for the winner. I think my posting history has demonstrated a gentle disregard for the facts anyways.

As far as the roster issue, I don't have an answer. The pick up was someone from Ring, not an eliminated team. He would be USAU current but not on our roster. It's more of a hypothetical question about a situation that could come up as our sport trods through these changes and I assume there will be others.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132119 is a reply to message #132117] Mon, 24 June 2013 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alanh
Messages: 59
Registered: October 2010
Member
Also, for the record, as of this writing "Boneyard" as an entity is not planning on playing in the "Regular season"/ Fall series.


Alan Hoyle
alan@tfda.org
http://www.tfda.org/
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132121 is a reply to message #132119] Mon, 24 June 2013 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgd.mitch
Messages: 1207
Registered: January 2009
Senior Member
jimmy, seems pretty straightforward to me. The tournament format should never change midstream without unanimous agreement of the effected teams unless you are trying to accommodate items outside of the control of the TD (ie, weather causing loss of fields). If the tournament wants to be a whatever flight tournament, then they need to either invite only teams that fall under that category or structure the tournament such that it will meet any requirements with teams that are not of the flight. failure to do so is the fault of the TD and the TD alone.

I completely understand FU's desire to play Tanasi, but that's their choice. They (FU) forfeited and played for 3rd place. If the TD gave them the impression, without your team's specific permission, that it wasn't a forfeit and that they were playing for the championship, then FU is due the winning prize money and merch, but the TD is also responsible for the same winning prize money and merch for your team as well. you won your games and were told you can't play for the prize, unless there is some relevant detail you are omitting.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132122 is a reply to message #132121] Mon, 24 June 2013 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ilyas
Messages: 113
Registered: January 2012
Senior Member
So who got the money?
If you stepped aside and let the other two teams play, did you not even get runner up money?
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132137 is a reply to message #132122] Tue, 25 June 2013 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
there was some discussion about the money and something was worked out. I don't know exactly what the details of this were, we didn't really care at the time. FL-U did not forfeit, though that joke was thrown around. TD Todd did make some mention of us using a player who was not on our roster as justification for the team switch when he felt like maybe we weren't joking about getting booted from the final -- we were.

this is not a complaint or sob story, merely a situation that came up that could have caused a problem if the teams and their situations had been different. as it were, Boneyard was more than happy to sit by and watch two teams play another game while we drank beer and gently heckled and called ourselves FCS Champions.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132153 is a reply to message #132137] Tue, 25 June 2013 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jughandle10
Messages: 109
Registered: April 2011
Location: Mercer County New Jersey
Senior Member
Jim,

interestingly, they moved the calendar up this year. We had chosen mixed easterns (another fine buda tournament).

THe previous year, it fell outside of the calendar. Not this year (that was my mistake for not looking it up).

Now... here's where I think USA-U is just insane.


They make every team register as a series event (that's in their manual). That is also insane, especially so after BUDA loses a couple of teams and get a couple of pickup teams thrown together last minute. (No offense to those players but that's just the reality). Did those teams get an exemption to complete the field of 32 that we didnt get (and we would have really wanted?)

Now let's say that tournament was in july... there's no way that they can get that pickup team together because the women's and open and whatever rosters they were on can't cut them because of the rules about readding players...

Also something we weren't allowed to do, go to this tournament under a different name. 7Express tried to go as 7local, and then cut the entire roster of 7 local (once cuts are made after all, you can't re-add to a roster, but if you go as a different name to your first official regular season tournament, and cut everyone there, theoretically you should be able to readd players to your actual roster.


USA-U kiboshed that.


The reason this is particularly egregious is for our team (a classic flight team that was 2200 rri before last years rri model got broken and inflated in the northeast), is that we were undergoing tryouts in june, and still had some final tryouts for what would have been boston invite. As such, we couldnt manipulate our roster to be able to go.

Given we had never been invited to boston invite, and this would have been a huge opportunity for a team (hopefully) on the rise, it just made me even more upset at the system.


In this case boston invite was able to find someone else, but the new system just is a clear change for the worse, and im in wholehearted agreement with you. Hopefully Jim you share your concerns here with the people who can actually create change.
Re: Conflict of Interests? [message #132184 is a reply to message #132153] Wed, 26 June 2013 10:22 Go to previous message
Knappy
Messages: 830
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
square peg: meet round hole
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