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UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1243] Wed, 01 October 2008 17:52 Go to next message
Evan
Messages: 7
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
I don't write on RSD, but I feel compelled to write something about
the board elections. I've played Frisbee for a while, first at
Columbia High School and now at the University of Colorado. I have
enjoyed my time playing Ultimate immensely, but I have become
frustrated with the growth of the sport. Ultimate is still not a
varsity sport at most high schools, it still isn't an NCAA sport, or
an Olympic sport. Ultimate still receives virtually no media exposure.
I turned on ESPN the other day, and the world Cup Stacking
championships were on TV for a hour. Cup stacking has a place on ESPN
but the finals of Club nationals does not. If there is a market for
cup stacking, there is surely a market for Ultimate. I just cannot
understand how the UPA has failed so miserably at marketing such an
athletic and exciting sport. One reason could be the lack of referees,
at the highest levels self officiating makes Ultimate hard to watch. I
am voting for Todd because I believe the way the UPA markets Ultimate
needs to change, we need to move towards refs, we need to get the
sport more exposure. I have had enough about the "Revolution" or
whatever the UPA wants to call it's plan, nothing has changed. I do
believe that with Todd on the board, Ultimate can at least begin to
move towards legitimacy. Whatever the UPA has done in the past to get
Ultimate more exposure and media coverage, has failed. Vote for Todd,
it's time for a change.


Evan
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1247 is a reply to message #1243] Wed, 01 October 2008 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frankie
Messages: 93
Registered: September 2008
Member
Evan,

You're really missing the big picture here.

The lack of referees in Ultimate is not the reason its not on ESPN.

The rules need a complete overhaul vis a vis Ultimate TL.

The sport will be immensely more popular, way more fun and infinitely more
entertaining, irrespective of whether or not there are refs.

Vote for Frank.


"Evan" <padget@colorado.edu> wrote in message
news:3a6a0973-432e-4942-ad71-716b5d191aeb@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>I don't write on RSD, but I feel compelled to write something about
> the board elections. I've played Frisbee for a while, first at
> Columbia High School and now at the University of Colorado. I have
> enjoyed my time playing Ultimate immensely, but I have become
> frustrated with the growth of the sport. Ultimate is still not a
> varsity sport at most high schools, it still isn't an NCAA sport, or
> an Olympic sport. Ultimate still receives virtually no media exposure.
> I turned on ESPN the other day, and the world Cup Stacking
> championships were on TV for a hour. Cup stacking has a place on ESPN
> but the finals of Club nationals does not. If there is a market for
> cup stacking, there is surely a market for Ultimate. I just cannot
> understand how the UPA has failed so miserably at marketing such an
> athletic and exciting sport. One reason could be the lack of referees,
> at the highest levels self officiating makes Ultimate hard to watch. I
> am voting for Todd because I believe the way the UPA markets Ultimate
> needs to change, we need to move towards refs, we need to get the
> sport more exposure. I have had enough about the "Revolution" or
> whatever the UPA wants to call it's plan, nothing has changed. I do
> believe that with Todd on the board, Ultimate can at least begin to
> move towards legitimacy. Whatever the UPA has done in the past to get
> Ultimate more exposure and media coverage, has failed. Vote for Todd,
> it's time for a change.
>
>
> Evan
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1251 is a reply to message #1243] Wed, 01 October 2008 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin Terry
Messages: 8
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
I also don't post on RSD very often, Evan, but to elect Toad to the
BoD would go against the vast majority of the people who make up the
UPA (dues paying, non-elite players) desire.

I've played high school and college and club Ultimate, and I know a
lot of folks who compete at those very high levels. I play, and it
seems to me that they play, because we love the game. Not because we
want to be marketed and seen on ESPN, not because we want recognition,
and not because we want to be members of a varsity/ncaa/olympic team.
It seems to me that the UPA does a helluva job of getting more people
a way to join and places to play. It serves its members well.

If you want to be on ESPN, you should buy a set of those cups.
Otherwise, thank the UPA for providing a lot of the groundwork for you
to have tournaments to play at and opponents to play against.

-kevin
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1253 is a reply to message #1251] Wed, 01 October 2008 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Head Beagle
Messages: 65
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 1, 10:03 pm, Kevin Terry <k.lee.te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also don't post on RSD very often, Evan, but to elect Toad to the
> BoD would go against the vast majority of the people who make up the
> UPA (dues paying, non-elite players) desire.


Bah!!! Now, I don't agree with Todd and I don't think he would be a
good Board member myself, but this is ridiculous.

Maybe you are correct, or maybe not, that is why we are having an
election. If Evan believes in what Todd preaches, he should vote for
Todd, screw those of us who don't agree. If Todd gets enough votes to
take a seat, then maybe his ideas aren't so far off from what most
people want as most of us assume they are. That is the reason we vote.
Evan pays dues just like the rest of us and is just as much a part of
the UPA as anyone else.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1254 is a reply to message #1243] Wed, 01 October 2008 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frankie
Messages: 93
Registered: September 2008
Member
I didn't mean to pan refs or Todd's candidacy.

My point is that if you're frustrated with Ultimate, there's a lot of
reasons for it and most of them date back to the New Games Doctrine.

Refs may fix some of this but if you're just treating the symptoms instead
the underlying disease.

The disease is New Games. Rip it out at the root.

Vote for Frank and vote for Todd.




"Evan" <padget@colorado.edu> wrote in message
news:3a6a0973-432e-4942-ad71-716b5d191aeb@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>I don't write on RSD, but I feel compelled to write something about
> the board elections. I've played Frisbee for a while, first at
> Columbia High School and now at the University of Colorado. I have
> enjoyed my time playing Ultimate immensely, but I have become
> frustrated with the growth of the sport. Ultimate is still not a
> varsity sport at most high schools, it still isn't an NCAA sport, or
> an Olympic sport. Ultimate still receives virtually no media exposure.
> I turned on ESPN the other day, and the world Cup Stacking
> championships were on TV for a hour. Cup stacking has a place on ESPN
> but the finals of Club nationals does not. If there is a market for
> cup stacking, there is surely a market for Ultimate. I just cannot
> understand how the UPA has failed so miserably at marketing such an
> athletic and exciting sport. One reason could be the lack of referees,
> at the highest levels self officiating makes Ultimate hard to watch. I
> am voting for Todd because I believe the way the UPA markets Ultimate
> needs to change, we need to move towards refs, we need to get the
> sport more exposure. I have had enough about the "Revolution" or
> whatever the UPA wants to call it's plan, nothing has changed. I do
> believe that with Todd on the board, Ultimate can at least begin to
> move towards legitimacy. Whatever the UPA has done in the past to get
> Ultimate more exposure and media coverage, has failed. Vote for Todd,
> it's time for a change.
>
>
> Evan
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1255 is a reply to message #1251] Wed, 01 October 2008 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeremiahthacker
Messages: 29
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 1, 9:03 pm, Kevin Terry <k.lee.te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also don't post on RSD very often, Evan, but to elect Toad to the
> BoD would go against the vast majority of the people who make up the
> UPA (dues paying, non-elite players) desire.
>
> I've played high school and college and club Ultimate, and I know a
> lot of folks who compete at those very high levels. I play, and it
> seems to me that they play, because we love the game. Not because we
> want to be marketed and seen on ESPN, not because we want recognition,
> and not because we want to be members of a varsity/ncaa/olympic team.
> It seems to me that the UPA does a helluva job of getting more people
> a way to join and places to play. It serves its members well.
>
> If you want to be on ESPN, you should buy a set of those cups.
> Otherwise, thank the UPA for providing a lot of the groundwork for you
> to have tournaments to play at and opponents to play against.
>
> -kevin

did you know that some dues paying members of the upa (some first time
members) payed to play one game?
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1256 is a reply to message #1251] Wed, 01 October 2008 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Evan
Messages: 7
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 1, 10:03 pm, Kevin Terry <k.lee.te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also don't post on RSD very often, Evan, but to elect Toad to the
> BoD would go against the vast majority of the people who make up the
> UPA (dues paying, non-elite players) desire.
>
> I've played high school and college and club Ultimate, and I know a
> lot of folks who compete at those very high levels. I play, and it
> seems to me that they play, because we love the game. Not because we
> want to be marketed and seen on ESPN, not because we want recognition,
> and not because we want to be members of a varsity/ncaa/olympic team.
> It seems to me that the UPA does a helluva job of getting more people
> a way to join and places to play. It serves its members well.
>
> If you want to be on ESPN, you should buy a set of those cups.
> Otherwise, thank the UPA for providing a lot of the groundwork for you
> to have tournaments to play at and opponents to play against.
>
> -kevin

Kevin,

I don't care about being on ESPN. It's about growth. The more media
exposure that ultimate gets, the more people will play it. Whats wrong
with ultimate becoming an NCAA sport? Or an olympic sport? I can be
thankful for the opportunity to play at tournaments, and still be
critical of how the UPA markets ultimate. I'm not a UPA hater. I just
want to see more growth in the sport, and more exposure. In my
experience, elite players do play ultimate because they love the game.
But they still want refs.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1257 is a reply to message #1243] Wed, 01 October 2008 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eddiegelfen
Messages: 43
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 1, 8:52 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
> I don't write on RSD, but I feel compelled to write something about
> the board elections. I've played Frisbee for a while, first at
> Columbia High School and now at the University of Colorado. I have
> enjoyed my time playing Ultimate immensely, but I have become
> frustrated with the growth of the sport. Ultimate is still not a
> varsity sport at most high schools, it still isn't an NCAA sport, or
> an Olympic sport. Ultimate still receives virtually no media exposure.
> I turned on ESPN the other day, and the world Cup Stacking
> championships were on TV for a hour. Cup stacking has a place on ESPN
> but the finals of Club nationals does not. If there is a market for
> cup stacking, there is surely a market for Ultimate.  I just cannot
> understand how the UPA has failed so miserably at marketing such an
> athletic and exciting sport. One reason could be the lack of referees,
> at the highest levels self officiating makes Ultimate hard to watch. I
> am voting for Todd because I believe the way the UPA markets Ultimate
> needs to change, we need to move towards refs, we need to get the
> sport more exposure. I have had enough about the "Revolution" or
> whatever the UPA wants to call it's plan, nothing has changed. I do
> believe that with Todd on the board, Ultimate can at least begin to
> move towards legitimacy. Whatever the UPA has done in the past to get
> Ultimate more exposure and media coverage, has failed. Vote for Todd,
> it's time for a change.
>
> Evan

Questions for you Evan, since you seem to have given this a lot of
thought:

1.a,b) Why do you think Todd will bring any change? Because he told
you so?
2) Is this a commercial featuring cup stacking? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZNP-I9LBes
3) When the "Revolution" begin? And it's a ____-year plan? What else
can you tell me about the "Revolution"?
4) How long is the "while" that you've been playing? How closely have
you been keeping track of things that you're qualified to comment on
what change has gone on?
5) Frustrated with the growth of the sport? "UPA membership has
nearly doubled in the past five years alone." What kind of growth
would be less frustrating for you?
6) How much ultimate have you watched "at the highest levels"? Surely
you're not counting any of your high school or college tournaments.
7) What do you know about the various candidates in the election?
Frank just told you he had the fix to get Ultimate on ESPN. Why
aren't you voting for him?
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1259 is a reply to message #1257] Wed, 01 October 2008 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Evan
Messages: 7
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 1, 10:38 pm, eddiegel...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 1, 8:52 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't write on RSD, but I feel compelled to write something about
> > the board elections. I've played Frisbee for a while, first at
> > Columbia High School and now at the University of Colorado. I have
> > enjoyed my time playing Ultimate immensely, but I have become
> > frustrated with the growth of the sport. Ultimate is still not a
> > varsity sport at most high schools, it still isn't an NCAA sport, or
> > an Olympic sport. Ultimate still receives virtually no media exposure.
> > I turned on ESPN the other day, and the world Cup Stacking
> > championships were on TV for a hour. Cup stacking has a place on ESPN
> > but the finals of Club nationals does not. If there is a market for
> > cup stacking, there is surely a market for Ultimate.  I just cannot
> > understand how the UPA has failed so miserably at marketing such an
> > athletic and exciting sport. One reason could be the lack of referees,
> > at the highest levels self officiating makes Ultimate hard to watch. I
> > am voting for Todd because I believe the way the UPA markets Ultimate
> > needs to change, we need to move towards refs, we need to get the
> > sport more exposure. I have had enough about the "Revolution" or
> > whatever the UPA wants to call it's plan, nothing has changed. I do
> > believe that with Todd on the board, Ultimate can at least begin to
> > move towards legitimacy. Whatever the UPA has done in the past to get
> > Ultimate more exposure and media coverage, has failed. Vote for Todd,
> > it's time for a change.
>
> > Evan
>
> Questions for you Evan, since you seem to have given this a lot of
> thought:
>
> 1.a,b) Why do you think Todd will bring any change?  Because he told
> you so?
> 2) Is this a commercial featuring cup stacking?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZNP-I9LBes
> 3) When the "Revolution" begin?  And it's a ____-year plan?  What else
> can you tell me about the "Revolution"?
> 4) How long is the "while" that you've been playing?  How closely have
> you been keeping track of things that you're qualified to comment on
> what change has gone on?
> 5) Frustrated with the growth of the sport?  "UPA membership has
> nearly doubled in the past five years alone."  What kind of growth
> would be less frustrating for you?
> 6) How much ultimate have you watched "at the highest levels"?  Surely
> you're not counting any of your high school or college tournaments.
> 7) What do you know about the various candidates in the election?
> Frank just told you he had the fix to get Ultimate on ESPN.  Why
> aren't you voting for him?

This isn't about me, i'm not a candidate.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1261 is a reply to message #1256] Wed, 01 October 2008 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pkurshan
Messages: 63
Registered: September 2008
Member
Hi Evan,

Thank you for writing about these issues- as you are probably well
aware, the question of how to best grow the sport of Ultimate is one
that's been heavily debated for quite some time. Many of us, myself
included, have often been frustrated with the lack of recognition for
the sport that we play. This is an issue that the board of directors
has been grappling with for many years. And while I certainly share in
your frustration that Cup Stacking is on ESPN while Ultimate is not,
I'd like to make a counter-argument for the idea that Todd Leber is
best equipped to move us towards the recognition we want.

The question of how to gain recognition for Ultimate is a really big
one. It includes things like: will recognition be best achieved from
top-down approaches like putting all our money into getting Ultimate
on ESPN, or from bottom-up approaches like growing youth Ultimate
until every kid knows how to play? An example of the former is the
WNBA, which was aggressively marketed from above, while an example of
the latter is the explosion in girls youth soccer. I am posing these
questions because I think the jury's still out on what the best answer
is.

The question of recognition also must deal with other issues. For
example, what is the price we're willing to pay to get that
recognition? If we want our high school and college teams to be
varsity and NCAA respectively, are we willing to go along with all
that that entails? Coaches picked not by the teams, but by the school
administration? NCAA rules about who can and can't play? Randomized
mandatory drug testing? The same goes for the Olympics. Mandatory
referees, drug testing, etc. And that's not just for the qualifying
teams- anyone that participates in the series would be fair game!

Then there's the specific question of ESPN- what are we willing to
give up to get our sport on ESPN? self-officiating? how about player
control of the rules? player control of the format of play? of who
gets to play on the teams that are showcased? ESPN is entertainment,
are we willing to let them dictate to us how they want to present our
sport to the world? Furthermore, will getting on ESPN really bring
about the recognition we're craving? Cup Stacking may be on ESPN, but
I had to look it up because I had never heard of it. On the other
hand, the number of times I've heard someone say "Oh, Ultimate, my son/
daughter plays that, what a great sport!" has grown about 100 fold
since the UPA began heavily investing in growing youth ultimate.

To bring this all back to the question at hand (the board election!),
I am not mentioning all these issues in order to start a big rsd
debate about them at this time, but rather to make the point that
these are all big issues with many nuances, rather than a black-and-
white question. Both sides of this debate have merit, but it's
important to elect thoughtful, respectful people to the board, so that
productive discussions and decisions can be reached. Having someone as
antagonistic as Toad (or Frank for that matter) as the official
spokesperson for these ideas, is much more likely to drive people away
than convince them.

-Peri Kurshan
UPA BoD, NE rep

This post is my own personal opinion and is not reflective of any
official UPA policy.



On Oct 1, 10:33 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
>
> Kevin,
>
> I don't care about being on ESPN. It's about growth. The more media
> exposure that ultimate gets, the more people will play it. Whats wrong
> with ultimate becoming an NCAA sport? Or an olympic sport? I can be
> thankful for the opportunity to play at tournaments, and still be
> critical of how the UPA markets ultimate. I'm not a UPA hater. I just
> want to see more growth in the sport, and more exposure.  In my
> experience, elite players do play ultimate because they love the game.
> But they still want refs.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1262 is a reply to message #1251] Wed, 01 October 2008 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Johnson
Messages: 174
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> I also don't post on RSD very often, Evan, but to elect Toad to the
> BoD would go against the vast majority of the people who make up the
> UPA (dues paying, non-elite players) desire.

http://www.gp.org/index.php

Gnar
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1267 is a reply to message #1243] Wed, 01 October 2008 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manzell
Messages: 145
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 1, 8:52 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
> I don't write on RSD, but I feel compelled to write something about
> the board elections. I've played Frisbee for a while, first at
> Columbia High School and now at the University of Colorado. I have
> enjoyed my time playing Ultimate immensely, but I have become
> frustrated with the growth of the sport. Ultimate is still not a
> varsity sport at most high schools, it still isn't an NCAA sport, or
> an Olympic sport. Ultimate still receives virtually no media exposure.
> I turned on ESPN the other day, and the world Cup Stacking
> championships were on TV for a hour. Cup stacking has a place on ESPN
> but the finals of Club nationals does not. If there is a market for
> cup stacking, there is surely a market for Ultimate.  I just cannot
> understand how the UPA has failed so miserably at marketing such an
> athletic and exciting sport. One reason could be the lack of referees,
> at the highest levels self officiating makes Ultimate hard to watch. I
> am voting for Todd because I believe the way the UPA markets Ultimate
> needs to change, we need to move towards refs, we need to get the
> sport more exposure. I have had enough about the "Revolution" or
> whatever the UPA wants to call it's plan, nothing has changed. I do
> believe that with Todd on the board, Ultimate can at least begin to
> move towards legitimacy. Whatever the UPA has done in the past to get
> Ultimate more exposure and media coverage, has failed. Vote for Todd,
> it's time for a change.
>
> Evan

I disagree that Toad will bring about any additional recognition/
exposure to our sport. Toad is a jerk and asshole to essentially
everyone on RSD. Imagine him forming the professional working
relationships that would be required to bring ultimate to the 'next
level'. What type of third party will want to get involved with him
and growing 'his' sport given his conduct? What will the UPA BOD ever
accomplish with him grinding every deliberation to a halt? Funny that
two of the most vocal critics of how 'inactive' the BOD is are also
the two that I view most likely to prevent the BOD from actually doing
any work.

- MRB

We need people on the BOD that have more than their own interests at
heart.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1271 is a reply to message #1267] Wed, 01 October 2008 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
"Toad is a jerk and asshole to essentially everyone on RSD."

Can you please give an example of this?
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1282 is a reply to message #1256] Wed, 01 October 2008 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MrPinto
Messages: 601
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 1, 7:33 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:

> I don't care about being on ESPN. It's about growth.

The UPA is growing though, right? Almost faster than the current play
opportunities can keep up with...

> The more media
> exposure that ultimate gets, the more people will play it.

Alternatively, when enough people play it, the media coverage will
follow naturally.

> Whats wrong
> with ultimate becoming an NCAA sport?

Nothing really, though most schools would probably only provide
scholarships for the women, if at all. What the NCAA does or might do
is independent of the UPA though - they run their own show.

> Or an olympic sport?

This was discussed recently, but the gist is, well, baseball isn't an
olympic sport anymore. I think the consensus was that the Olympics
are trying to move away from large team sports and towards individual
or at least small group competition. Less barrier to entry for the
little countries, I suppose? I figure that things like water polo and
field hockey might not make it if they weren't already in there.

~p
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1289 is a reply to message #1261] Thu, 02 October 2008 06:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 1, 11:07 pm, pkurs...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Evan,
>
> Thank you for writing about these issues- as you are probably well
> aware, the question of how to best grow the sport of Ultimate is one
> that's been heavily debated for quite some time. Many of us, myself
> included, have often been frustrated with the lack of recognition for
> the sport that we play. This is an issue that the board of directors
> has been grappling with for many years. And while I certainly share in
> your frustration that Cup Stacking is on ESPN while Ultimate is not,

not only cup stacking but also K-9 disc catching events.......and they
aint sellin no $400 K-9 disc sets! So how do dogs catching frisbees
have such a big head start on ultimate. I'll tell ya how. they took
a different approach way back in how they marketed and presented their
sport.

peri, what you fail to realize is that ultimate has traditionally
flourished itself as an anti-sport(which continues to hurt its rep in
the "real" sports world). Unless you, the upa and MOSTLY the
administration are ready and willing to shed this sotg type newgames
philosophy then ultimate will have a tough time EVOLVING out of its
present state (which is the kind of "growth" i think evan was talking
about, which has eluded, and will continue to elude ultimate no matter
how MANY people decide to participate) So its not just a matter of
growin bigger....but more in growin smarter.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
> I'd like to make a counter-argument for the idea that Todd Leber is
> best equipped to move us towards the recognition we want.


and just what makes YOU so well equipped.......and what, for one
second, makes you think you know more about this sport, recreation or
sports in general and sports marketing than me?? cause ya DONT!!!!
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------
>
> The question of how to gain recognition for Ultimate is a really big
> one. It includes things like: will recognition be best achieved from
> top-down approaches like putting all our money into getting Ultimate
> on ESPN, or from bottom-up approaches like growing youth Ultimate
> until every kid knows how to play?

both.....duh. its called "balance".
-----------------------------------------------------



An example of the former is the
> WNBA, which was aggressively marketed from above, while an example of
> the latter is the explosion in girls youth soccer.

are you trying to say that the wnba hasent increased the popularity of
girls youth b-ball?
----------------------------------------------------------



I am posing these
> questions because I think the jury's still out on what the best answer
> is.

kinda like, for our man W, the jury is still out on evolution?
------------------------------------------------------------ -----
>
> The question of recognition also must deal with other issues. For
> example, what is the price we're willing to pay to get that
> recognition?

what price??? do you mean resorting to using refs? are you trying to
tell us, peri, that you are a confirmed anti ref spirit zealot???
what price did the greatful dead pay when they sold out to mtv? NONE,
thats what......in fact i'm sure they made a nice chunk of kahblingy
AND increased their fan base.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---


If we want our high school and college teams to be
> varsity and NCAA respectively, are we willing to go along with all
> that that entails?

we sure as fuck should be. but just so we know, what are you so
affraid of that it may "entail"?
------------------------------------------------------------ ----


Coaches picked not by the teams, but by the school
> administration?

why is that a big deal much less a deal at all. dont ya think the
admin would have the best interests of the players at hand?
------------------------------------------------------------ -



NCAA rules about who can and can't play?

those are whats known in the real world as "standards". dont you deal
with such standards in your everyday life outside of ultimate(and even
inside ulti......as most top level teams already have cuts)
------------------------------------------------------------ --


Randomized
> mandatory drug testing?

why is this even a factor for you? are you aware of ulti players on
roids.......or are you worried about being screened for recreational
drugs? do ultimate players even burn all that much any more?
-------------------------------------------------------


The same goes for the Olympics. Mandatory
> referees,

ahhhh, now we are at the root of the problem......you ARE an anti ref
spirit zealot. well let me clue ya in on somthin.....most of US
arent!

So basically what you are campaining for is to get people on the board
that are "likeminded" when it comes to THIS specific issue!

question though, how do you accurately represent your membership when
they arent "likeminded" with the way YOU think on this issue?
------------------------------------------------------------




drug testing, etc. And that's not just for the qualifying
> teams- anyone that participates in the series would be fair game!

again......is there common knowledge of current players "using". and
if so, isnt that cheating, and shouldnt those people be penalized????
--------------------------------------------------
>
> Then there's the specific question of ESPN- what are we willing to
> give up to get our sport on ESPN? self-officiating?

in a heart beat........well, at least 70% of us are.
------------------------------------------------------------




how about player
> control of the rules?

isnt that the same thing as self officiating? and whats the
difference in you guys setting policy on rules and rules issues with
out consent or approval from the membership and some other sports
administration doing it?
------------------------------------------------------------ -------



player control of the format of play? of who
> gets to play on the teams that are showcased?

the best players the sport has to offer. which is basically the same
kinda athletes that get to showcase the other popular sports that we
see on tv today. Its whats known in our society as "sports
entertainment". ya might want to do a little research on that
subject.
--------------------------------------------------


ESPN is entertainment,
> are we willing to let them dictate to us how they want to present our
> sport to the world?

well they ARE the "world wide leaders" in sports. are you suggesting
that we should balk on advise, consultation and guidance from them and
soley go by what you, an anti ref, spirit zealot and henry, a person
that cant appreciate "other sports" preach and say instead? pffft,
the ego on you people.
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------



Furthermore, will getting on ESPN really bring
> about the recognition we're craving?

fuck yea!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------


Cup Stacking may be on ESPN, but
> I had to look it up because I had never heard of it. On the other
> hand, the number of times I've heard someone say "Oh, Ultimate, my son/
> daughter plays that, what a great sport!" has grown about 100 fold
> since the UPA began heavily investing in growing youth ultimate.


ultimate is a blurb compared to sport stacking(in a marketing sense
and in participation). see now this is that arrogant attitude that
really makes you unqualified to even be in a position to administrate
this sport in the first place. You should always use other sports as
models of how to make ultimate better. dont hate,
appreciate......then replicate.
----------------------------------------------------------
>
> To bring this all back to the question at hand (the board election!),
> I am not mentioning all these issues in order to start a big rsd
> debate about them at this time,


to late for that. the cat, mmrrraaarrrre, is out of the bag!
------------------------------------------------------------ --------



but rather to make the point that
> these are all big issues with many nuances, rather than a black-and-
> white question.

you sure seem to be making the ref issue black and white.
------------------------------------------------------------ ----



Both sides of this debate have merit, but it's
> important to elect thoughtful, respectful people to the board, so that
> productive discussions and decisions can be reached.

hey, sometimes it takes heated debates to get to the heart of the
matter. if you anit got the stomache for it maybe you should step
down.
--------------------------------------------



Having someone as
> antagonistic as Toad (or Frank for that matter) as the official
> spokesperson for these ideas, is much more likely to drive people away
> than convince them.

thats pure speculation. but i'm wondering. is your motivation to just
avoid confrontations and/or being challenged? because if you were more
confident it would seem that you would just let the process take its
course and serve your constiuancy based on their desires, rather than
try to desperatly persuade them as to which path is best for OUR
COLLECTIVE sport.

and peri, i dont expect and reply from you because i KNOW you dont
want to go toe to toe with me on these or any other issues concerning
ultimate.......which really dosent bode well for you. You know,
slinging mud at me but then failing to face me in debate. But keep on
campainging against me if you think that will help you from goin toe
to toe with me once we are in that board room.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1292 is a reply to message #1267] Thu, 02 October 2008 06:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 2, 12:17 am, Manzell <manz...@reaxion.org> wrote:
>
> > Evan
>
> I disagree that Toad will bring about any additional recognition/
> exposure to our sport. Toad is a jerk and asshole to essentially
> everyone on RSD.

hey, ya cant start a revolution......and i'm talkin about a REAL
revolution, without rufflin a few feathers. I'm sure there are lota
of people that think that top level executives of sports (as well as
other business organizations) are looked on as jerks or assholes.
Often times thats just the kind of person it takes to get shit done.
Many people used to think that KD was a jerk and asshole,,,,,and we
all saw how succesful he made NYNY. and now he's gettin ready to be
honored into ultimates hall. And i seriously know of no other past or
present player that gets the same level of respect that he does, even
by his worst enemies. We are just the kind of people that push the
envelope and make organizations much more successfull than they would
have been otherwise. so sure, we can be a little ass holish at
times.......but does that really matter?
--------------------------------------------------------



Imagine him forming the professional working
> relationships that would be required to bring ultimate to the 'next
> level'.

ya mean like i did with my own building and realestate management
business that i built from the ground up that is now worth millions.
------------------------------------------------------------ -----




What type of third party will want to get involved with him
> and growing 'his' sport given his conduct?

one thats smart and wants to progress and evolve.
-----------------------------------------------------


What will the UPA BOD ever
> accomplish with him grinding every deliberation to a halt?

gettin refs in ulti for one. and marketing the sport A LOT better for
another.
------------------------------------------------------------ -


Funny that
> two of the most vocal critics of how 'inactive' the BOD is are also
> the two that I view most likely to prevent the BOD from actually doing
> any work.

thats cause you are LITTLE FRAIDY CAT. you are probably a
traditionalist and you know that i represent a large chunk of ultimate
players that (albeit not all that vocal) agree with my philosophies
and strategies.

and your desperation is shining thru more and more with every passing
day
------------------------------------------------------------ --
>
>  - MRB
>
> We need people on the BOD that have more than their own interests at
> heart.


then we need a fuckin wholesale on that mf cause the current board
members (save mike payne)are the ones pushing their own stale and
tired "no refs in ulti" agenda.



-
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1299 is a reply to message #1292] Thu, 02 October 2008 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeremiahthacker
Messages: 29
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 2, 8:23 am, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
> On Oct 2, 12:17 am, Manzell <manz...@reaxion.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Evan
>
> > I disagree that Toad will bring about any additional recognition/
> > exposure to our sport. Toad is a jerk and asshole to essentially
> > everyone on RSD.
>
> hey, ya cant start a revolution......and i'm talkin about a REAL
> revolution, without rufflin a few feathers.  I'm sure there are lota
> of people that think that top level executives of sports (as well as
> other business organizations) are looked on as jerks or assholes.
> Often times thats just the kind of person it takes to get shit done.
> Many people used to think that KD was a jerk and asshole,,,,,and we
> all saw how succesful he made NYNY.  and now he's gettin ready to be
> honored into ultimates hall.  And i seriously know of no other past or
> present player that gets the same level of respect that he does, even
> by his worst enemies.  We are just the kind of people that push the
> envelope and make organizations much more successfull than they would
> have been otherwise.  so sure, we can be a little ass holish at
> times.......but does that really matter?
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Imagine him forming the professional working
>
> > relationships that would be required to bring ultimate to the 'next
> > level'.
>
> ya mean like i did with my own building and realestate management
> business that i built from the ground up that is now worth millions.
> ------------------------------------------------------------ -----
>
>  What type of third party will want to get involved with him
>
> > and growing 'his' sport given his conduct?
>
> one thats smart and wants to progress and evolve.
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>  What will the UPA BOD ever
>
> > accomplish with him grinding every deliberation to a halt?
>
> gettin refs in ulti for one. and marketing the sport A LOT better for
> another.
> ------------------------------------------------------------ -
>
>  Funny that
>
> > two of the most vocal critics of how 'inactive' the BOD is are also
> > the two that I view most likely to prevent the BOD from actually doing
> > any work.
>
> thats cause you are LITTLE FRAIDY CAT.  you are probably a
> traditionalist and you know that i represent a large chunk of ultimate
> players that (albeit not all that vocal) agree with my philosophies
> and strategies.
>
> and your desperation is shining thru more and more with every passing
> day
> ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>
>
>
> >  - MRB
>
> > We need people on the BOD that have more than their own interests at
> > heart.
>
> then we need a fuckin wholesale on that mf cause the current board
> members (save mike payne)are the ones pushing their own stale and
> tired "no refs in ulti" agenda.
>
>  -

yes, toad, ultimate players do still burn a formidable amount
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1307 is a reply to message #1299] Thu, 02 October 2008 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jacob
Messages: 576
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
"If we want our high school and college teams to be varsity and NCAA
respectively, are we willing to go along with all that that
entails ... [r]andomized mandatory drug testing?"

Ms. Kurshan- Thank you for bringing up this issue. Drug testing is a
big violation of privacy, in light of the fact that athletes are often
tested for drugs which have no positive effect on performance, like
alcohol and marijuana. You may be interested to know that high
schools are permitted to institute random drug testing for students
who engage in any school-run extra-curricular activities, even band.
If high school ultimate goes NCAA, the players will likely be
sacrificing some level of drug-related privacy because the NCAA is
probably more aggressive than most high schools about drug testing,
but except for teams with no official ties to their school, this
privacy is already at the whim of people outside the ultimate world.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1309 is a reply to message #1299] Thu, 02 October 2008 07:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 2, 9:40 am, "jeremiahthac...@gmail.com"
<jeremiahthac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  -
>
> yes, toad, ultimate players do still burn a formidable amount-

well if thats why an adminstrator for this sport is opposed to that
aspect of the sports evolution, what does that say about how ultimate
is being represented by her? basically shes saying she dosent want to
see college ulti go ncaa because people wouldnt the be able to smoke
pot!!!! when will ultimate grow up and shed its hippy roots????

heres a CRAZY suggestion, lets ask the current college players if they
would be willing to make that consession in order to get ncaa status
and all the benefits that go along with it. and dont think for a
second that some of those "other sports" athletes dont burn too
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1319 is a reply to message #1309] Thu, 02 October 2008 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeremiahthacker
Messages: 29
Registered: October 2008
Junior Member
On Oct 2, 9:46 am, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
> On Oct 2, 9:40 am, "jeremiahthac...@gmail.com"
>
> <jeremiahthac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >  -
>
> > yes, toad, ultimate players do still burn a formidable amount-
>
> well if thats why an adminstrator for this sport is opposed to that
> aspect of the sports evolution, what does that say about how ultimate
> is being represented by her?  basically shes saying she dosent want to
> see college ulti go ncaa because people wouldnt the be able to smoke
> pot!!!!  when will ultimate grow up and shed its hippy roots????
>
> heres a CRAZY suggestion, lets ask the current college players if they
> would be willing to make that consession in order to get ncaa status
> and all the benefits that go along with it.  and dont think for a
> second that some of those "other sports" athletes dont burn too

i am well aware that many do
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1326 is a reply to message #1259] Thu, 02 October 2008 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eddiegelfen
Messages: 43
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 1, 10:42 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 10:38 pm, eddiegel...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 1, 8:52 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
>
> > > I don't write on RSD, but I feel compelled to write something about
> > > the board elections. I've played Frisbee for a while, first at
> > > Columbia High School and now at the University of Colorado. I have
> > > enjoyed my time playing Ultimate immensely, but I have become
> > > frustrated with the growth of the sport. Ultimate is still not a
> > > varsity sport at most high schools, it still isn't an NCAA sport, or
> > > an Olympic sport. Ultimate still receives virtually no media exposure..
> > > I turned on ESPN the other day, and the world Cup Stacking
> > > championships were on TV for a hour. Cup stacking has a place on ESPN
> > > but the finals of Club nationals does not. If there is a market for
> > > cup stacking, there is surely a market for Ultimate.  I just cannot
> > > understand how the UPA has failed so miserably at marketing such an
> > > athletic and exciting sport. One reason could be the lack of referees,
> > > at the highest levels self officiating makes Ultimate hard to watch. I
> > > am voting for Todd because I believe the way the UPA markets Ultimate
> > > needs to change, we need to move towards refs, we need to get the
> > > sport more exposure. I have had enough about the "Revolution" or
> > > whatever the UPA wants to call it's plan, nothing has changed. I do
> > > believe that with Todd on the board, Ultimate can at least begin to
> > > move towards legitimacy. Whatever the UPA has done in the past to get
> > > Ultimate more exposure and media coverage, has failed. Vote for Todd,
> > > it's time for a change.
>
> > > Evan
>
> > Questions for you Evan, since you seem to have given this a lot of
> > thought:
>
> > 1.a,b) Why do you think Todd will bring any change?  Because he told
> > you so?
> > 2) Is this a commercial featuring cup stacking?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZNP-I9LBes
> > 3) When the "Revolution" begin?  And it's a ____-year plan?  What else
> > can you tell me about the "Revolution"?
> > 4) How long is the "while" that you've been playing?  How closely have
> > you been keeping track of things that you're qualified to comment on
> > what change has gone on?
> > 5) Frustrated with the growth of the sport?  "UPA membership has
> > nearly doubled in the past five years alone."  What kind of growth
> > would be less frustrating for you?
> > 6) How much ultimate have you watched "at the highest levels"?  Surely
> > you're not counting any of your high school or college tournaments.
> > 7) What do you know about the various candidates in the election?
> > Frank just told you he had the fix to get Ultimate on ESPN.  Why
> > aren't you voting for him?
>
> This isn't about me, i'm not a candidate.

Just thought your post sounded uninformed and your analysis was
superficial. Wondered if there was any reason to think otherwise.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1328 is a reply to message #1261] Thu, 02 October 2008 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scpoulos
Messages: 225
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 1, 11:07 pm, pkurs...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Evan,
>
> Thank you for writing about these issues- as you are probably well
> aware, the question of how to best grow the sport of Ultimate is one
> that's been heavily debated for quite some time. Many of us, myself
> included, have often been frustrated with the lack of recognition for
> the sport that we play. This is an issue that the board of directors
> has been grappling with for many years. And while I certainly share in
> your frustration that Cup Stacking is on ESPN while Ultimate is not,
> I'd like to make a counter-argument for the idea that Todd Leber is
> best equipped to move us towards the recognition we want.
>
> The question of how to gain recognition for Ultimate is a really big
> one. It includes things like: will recognition be best achieved from
> top-down approaches like putting all our money into getting Ultimate
> on ESPN, or from bottom-up approaches like growing youth Ultimate
> until every kid knows how to play? An example of the former is the
> WNBA, which was aggressively marketed from above, while an example of
> the latter is the explosion in girls youth soccer. I am posing these
> questions because I think the jury's still out on what the best answer
> is.
>
> The question of recognition also must deal with other issues. For
> example, what is the price we're willing to pay to get that
> recognition? If we want our high school and college teams to be
> varsity and NCAA respectively, are we willing to go along with all
> that that entails? Coaches picked not by the teams, but by the school
> administration? NCAA rules about who can and can't play? Randomized
> mandatory drug testing? The same goes for the Olympics. Mandatory
> referees, drug testing, etc. And that's not just for the qualifying
> teams- anyone that participates in the series would be fair game!
>
> Then there's the specific question of ESPN- what are we willing to
> give up to get our sport on ESPN? self-officiating? how about player
> control of the rules? player control of the format of play? of who
> gets to play on the teams that are showcased? ESPN is entertainment,
> are we willing to let them dictate to us how they want to present our
> sport to the world? Furthermore, will getting on ESPN really bring
> about the recognition we're craving? Cup Stacking may be on ESPN, but
> I had to look it up because I had never heard of it. On the other
> hand, the number of times I've heard someone say "Oh, Ultimate, my son/
> daughter plays that, what a great sport!" has grown about 100 fold
> since the UPA began heavily investing in growing youth ultimate.
>
> To bring this all back to the question at hand (the board election!),
> I am not mentioning all these issues in order to start a big rsd
> debate about them at this time, but rather to make the point that
> these are all big issues with many nuances, rather than a black-and-
> white question. Both sides of this debate have merit, but it's
> important to elect thoughtful, respectful people to the board, so that
> productive discussions and decisions can be reached. Having someone as
> antagonistic as Toad (or Frank for that matter) as the official
> spokesperson for these ideas, is much more likely to drive people away
> than convince them.
>
> -Peri Kurshan
> UPA BoD, NE rep
>
> This post is my own personal opinion and is not reflective of any
> official UPA policy.
>
> On Oct 1, 10:33 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Kevin,
>
> > I don't care about being on ESPN. It's about growth. The more media
> > exposure that ultimate gets, the more people will play it. Whats wrong
> > with ultimate becoming an NCAA sport? Or an olympic sport? I can be
> > thankful for the opportunity to play at tournaments, and still be
> > critical of how the UPA markets ultimate. I'm not a UPA hater. I just
> > want to see more growth in the sport, and more exposure.  In my
> > experience, elite players do play ultimate because they love the game.
> > But they still want refs.

another lame post by Peri Kurshan. you sure seem afraid of the
possibility of Toad being elected. some of us out there are tired of
all the re-dos in ultimate and the lame-ass arguments that come from
two competiting factions having the power to be referees themselves in
the battle of competition. your sentiments do make it seem that there
needs to be another faction besides the upa that is actually
interested in making ultimate more legitimate and allow for it to
really prosper at the elite levels. what toad is proposing won't take
away the grassroots initiatives and steal your precious notions of
frisbee being a sport for all those that don't play mainstream sports.
everyone will still be able to play, but there would also be the
possibility for the elite levels of the game to grow in entertainment
value and smoothness/efficiency of the game.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1334 is a reply to message #1243] Thu, 02 October 2008 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Buck
Messages: 54
Registered: September 2008
Member
Here's a debate question for Toad.

Toad, in the past you've twice (three times?) attempted to start a
referreed version of ultimate.
In both instances you quit the project, once before it even got off
the ground.
After the fact you have blamed the venture's failure to succeed on
team's unwillingness to travel, the refs themselves, and volunteers
unwilling to do even more work.

The UPA board of directors position is a three year commitment.
If elected, will you quit the first time someone disagrees with you in
a meeting?
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1338 is a reply to message #1328] Thu, 02 October 2008 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinmcintyre
Messages: 1256
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 2, 12:29 pm, scpou...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 1, 11:07 pm, pkurs...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi Evan,
>
> > Thank you for writing about these issues- as you are probably well
> > aware, the question of how to best grow the sport of Ultimate is one
> > that's been heavily debated for quite some time. Many of us, myself
> > included, have often been frustrated with the lack of recognition for
> > the sport that we play. This is an issue that the board of directors
> > has been grappling with for many years. And while I certainly share in
> > your frustration that Cup Stacking is on ESPN while Ultimate is not,
> > I'd like to make a counter-argument for the idea that Todd Leber is
> > best equipped to move us towards the recognition we want.
>
> > The question of how to gain recognition for Ultimate is a really big
> > one. It includes things like: will recognition be best achieved from
> > top-down approaches like putting all our money into getting Ultimate
> > on ESPN, or from bottom-up approaches like growing youth Ultimate
> > until every kid knows how to play? An example of the former is the
> > WNBA, which was aggressively marketed from above, while an example of
> > the latter is the explosion in girls youth soccer. I am posing these
> > questions because I think the jury's still out on what the best answer
> > is.
>
> > The question of recognition also must deal with other issues. For
> > example, what is the price we're willing to pay to get that
> > recognition? If we want our high school and college teams to be
> > varsity and NCAA respectively, are we willing to go along with all
> > that that entails? Coaches picked not by the teams, but by the school
> > administration? NCAA rules about who can and can't play? Randomized
> > mandatory drug testing? The same goes for the Olympics. Mandatory
> > referees, drug testing, etc. And that's not just for the qualifying
> > teams- anyone that participates in the series would be fair game!
>
> > Then there's the specific question of ESPN- what are we willing to
> > give up to get our sport on ESPN? self-officiating? how about player
> > control of the rules? player control of the format of play? of who
> > gets to play on the teams that are showcased? ESPN is entertainment,
> > are we willing to let them dictate to us how they want to present our
> > sport to the world? Furthermore, will getting on ESPN really bring
> > about the recognition we're craving? Cup Stacking may be on ESPN, but
> > I had to look it up because I had never heard of it. On the other
> > hand, the number of times I've heard someone say "Oh, Ultimate, my son/
> > daughter plays that, what a great sport!" has grown about 100 fold
> > since the UPA began heavily investing in growing youth ultimate.
>
> > To bring this all back to the question at hand (the board election!),
> > I am not mentioning all these issues in order to start a big rsd
> > debate about them at this time, but rather to make the point that
> > these are all big issues with many nuances, rather than a black-and-
> > white question. Both sides of this debate have merit, but it's
> > important to elect thoughtful, respectful people to the board, so that
> > productive discussions and decisions can be reached. Having someone as
> > antagonistic as Toad (or Frank for that matter) as the official
> > spokesperson for these ideas, is much more likely to drive people away
> > than convince them.
>
> > -Peri Kurshan
> > UPA BoD, NE rep
>
> > This post is my own personal opinion and is not reflective of any
> > official UPA policy.
>
> > On Oct 1, 10:33 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
>
> > > Kevin,
>
> > > I don't care about being on ESPN. It's about growth. The more media
> > > exposure that ultimate gets, the more people will play it. Whats wrong
> > > with ultimate becoming an NCAA sport? Or an olympic sport? I can be
> > > thankful for the opportunity to play at tournaments, and still be
> > > critical of how the UPA markets ultimate. I'm not a UPA hater. I just
> > > want to see more growth in the sport, and more exposure.  In my
> > > experience, elite players do play ultimate because they love the game..
> > > But they still want refs.
>
> another lame post by Peri Kurshan. you sure seem afraid of the
> possibility of Toad being elected. some of us out there are tired of
> all the re-dos in ultimate and the lame-ass arguments that come from
> two competiting factions having the power to be referees themselves in
> the battle of competition. your sentiments do make it seem that there
> needs to be another faction besides the upa that is actually
> interested in making ultimate more legitimate and allow for it to
> really prosper at the elite levels. what toad is proposing won't take
> away the grassroots initiatives and steal your precious notions of
> frisbee being a sport for all those that don't play mainstream sports.
> everyone will still be able to play, but there would also be the
> possibility for the elite levels of the game to grow in entertainment
> value and smoothness/efficiency of the game.

Three points, Stephen.

1) One great reason not to put Toad on the board is that it seems
very unlikely that he could work productively with 11 other people.
Do the voters have any reason to think otherwise?

2) If Toad gets on the board and continues to propose nothing and all
his constituents (apparently the silent majority?) continue to remain
silent (and propose nothing), how will any change happen? However, if
Todd ever converted his ideas into something workable (as opposed to
mere rhetoric), he could submit a proposal, whether he's on the board
or not. Why should we expect his proposal-submitting habits to
change?

3) If the current Board and all the other candidates are all clueless,
obstinate spirit zealots like Todd claims, adding him to the board
will do nothing. 1 vote out of 12, with the other 11 hopelessly
blinded by their spirit zealotry. If this is the case, the real
support should be an effort by Todd's thousands of supporters to
support events organized by him demonstrating the superiority of
reffed ultimate. Leagues, elite series, etc, all captured on video
and available online. And if that's what people want, it'll
undoubtedly take off, making Todd even richer than he already is and
catapulting Ultimate into the mainstream. The fact that Todd is even
trying to promote change through the apparently hopeless UPA just
makes me question his change-bringing ability and strategy. If, in
fact, Toad could bring about the changes he promises through the UPA,
then we need to reevaluate all the claims he's made about the current
board members, as well as the other candidates.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1346 is a reply to message #1338] Thu, 02 October 2008 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
swillaholic
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
> Three points, Stephen.
>
> 1)  One great reason not to put Toad on the board is that it seems
> very unlikely that he could work productively with 11 other people.
> Do the voters have any reason to think otherwise?

Unless you're suggesting near 100% motion agreements is 'productive
work', I think there's a good chance that there will be some
productive work with +11 other people, over a 3 year time period.

My claim seems naive.
Your claim seems exaggerated.
=)


> 2)  If Toad gets on the board and continues to propose nothing and all
> his constituents (apparently the silent majority?) continue to remain
> silent (and propose nothing), how will any change happen?  However, if
> Todd ever converted his ideas into something workable (as opposed to
> mere rhetoric), he could submit a proposal, whether he's on the board
> or not.  Why should we expect his proposal-submitting habits to
> change?

You're suggesting that: If Todd has the votes/constituency to get a
BoD seat, then he should submit proposals?



> 3) If the current Board and all the other candidates are all clueless,
> obstinate spirit zealots like Todd claims, adding him to the board
> will do nothing.  1 vote out of 12, with the other 11 hopelessly
> blinded by their spirit zealotry.  If this is the case, the real
> support should be an effort by Todd's thousands of supporters to
> support events organized by him demonstrating the superiority of
> reffed ultimate.  Leagues, elite series, etc, all captured on video
> and available online.  And if that's what people want, it'll
> undoubtedly take off, making Todd even richer than he already is and
> catapulting Ultimate into the mainstream.  The fact that Todd is even
> trying to promote change through the apparently hopeless UPA just
> makes me question his change-bringing ability and strategy.  If, in
> fact, Toad could bring about the changes he promises through the UPA,
> then we need to reevaluate all the claims he's made about the current
> board members, as well as the other candidates.- Hide quoted text -

The summary of this point: Todd is wrong.
Thanks Colin.
What else is new?

=)
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1354 is a reply to message #1334] Thu, 02 October 2008 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 2, 12:48 pm, Joe Buck <birdf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a debate question for Toad.
>
> Toad, in the past you've twice (three times?) attempted to start a
> referreed version of ultimate.
> In both instances you quit the project, once before it even got off
> the ground.
> After the fact you have blamed the venture's failure to succeed on
> team's unwillingness to travel, the refs themselves, and volunteers
> unwilling to do even more work.
>
> The UPA board of directors position is a three year commitment.
> If elected, will you quit the first time someone disagrees with you in
> a meeting?

first off, i thought you had reasons to no longer argue with me.
so.......respond to those acusations of suposed "friends " of mine
saying what ever it was they said first and then i'll respond to this
one.
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1356 is a reply to message #1354] Thu, 02 October 2008 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Buck
Messages: 54
Registered: September 2008
Member
On Oct 2, 11:49 am, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
> first off, i thought you had reasons to no longer argue with me.
> so.......respond to those acusations of suposed "friends " of mine
> saying what ever it was they said first and then i'll respond to this
> one.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513625
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1368 is a reply to message #1356] Thu, 02 October 2008 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joadntoad
Messages: 1411
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 2, 3:00 pm, Joe Buck <birdf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 11:49 am, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
>
> > first off, i thought you had reasons to no longer argue with me.
> > so.......respond to those acusations of suposed "friends " of mine
> > saying what ever it was they said first and then i'll respond to this
> > one.
>
> http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513625

try again
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1398 is a reply to message #1282] Thu, 02 October 2008 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jermleeds
Messages: 270
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 1, 11:36 pm, "MrPi...@gmail.com" <MrPi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 7:33 pm, Evan <pad...@colorado.edu> wrote:
>
> > I don't care about being on ESPN. It's about growth.
>
> The UPA is growing though, right? Almost faster than the current play
> opportunities can keep up with...
I think Pinto hits on key points here wrt/ the current growth rate of
the UPA, Olympic participation and NCAA status.

Specifically:

1. the current growth rate of the UPA and of ultimate in general is
remarkable, and represents a pretty impressive ROI for your $40/year.
Most non-profit organizations would kill to have the year-over-year
growth the UPA has, and I'd want to be exceedingly cautious about a re-
allocation of resources to any top-down, TV-driven bid for exposure,
as such an approach can not guarantee a similar return in terms of the
growth of the sport. If the current growth were stagnant or negative,
I might be clamoring for exploration of other approaches as loudly as
Toad is. But it's not, and I'm not. We're doing really well right now,
growth-wise, and the first responsibility of any new board member is
not to f#$k that up.

2. Olympic participation. Not. Gonna. Happen., for reasons that have
been covered here many times before. Olympics are eliminating team
sports, not adding. We should devote our energies elsewhere.

3. NCAA sanctioning. Pinto hits on a key point - Title 9 implications.
As it is now, colleges are eliminating wrestling, men's gymnastics,
and even football, in order to be Title 9 compliant, which requires
them to equalize the number of male and female athletes. Even adding
even numbers of men and women ultimate players would not help schools
address this, and the fact remains that there are more men than women
playing disc. So, even if the NCAA could be convinced to sanction
ultimate, that sanctioning would mean that schools would be less
likely to support ultimate, men's ulti in particular, than they
currently do as a club sport, in which Title 9 implications do not
apply, or are at least less likely to be enforced. This is not merely
an issue about the possibility of scholarships being offered; NCAA
sanctioning could endanger utlimate programs themselves. Better that
we thrive as club sport than contract as a varsity sport.

There's an obvious irony in that most ultimate players, men included,
certainly support the motivation behind Title 9, to give women more
opportunities to be athletes. The law of unintended consequences is
illustrated well in this case.



> > The more media
> > exposure that ultimate gets, the more people will play it.
>
> Alternatively, when enough people play it, the media coverage will
> follow naturally.
>
> > Whats wrong
> > with ultimate becoming an NCAA sport?
>
> Nothing really, though most schools would probably only provide
> scholarships for the women, if at all. What the NCAA does or might do
> is independent of the UPA though - they run their own show.
>
> > Or an olympic sport?
>
> This was discussed recently, but the gist is, well, baseball isn't an
> olympic sport anymore. I think the consensus was that the Olympics
> are trying to move away from large team sports and towards individual
> or at least small group competition. Less barrier to entry for the
> little countries, I suppose? I figure that things like water polo and
> field hockey might not make it if they weren't already in there.
>
> ~p
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1441 is a reply to message #1243] Fri, 03 October 2008 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Head Beagle
Messages: 65
Registered: September 2008
Member
Spam bump
Re: UPA Elections- Todd Leber [message #1529 is a reply to message #1292] Fri, 03 October 2008 13:18 Go to previous message
Manzell
Messages: 145
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Oct 2, 9:23 am, joadnt...@ec.rr.com wrote:
> On Oct 2, 12:17 am, Manzell <manz...@reaxion.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Evan
>
> > I disagree that Toad will bring about any additional recognition/
> > exposure to our sport. Toad is a jerk and asshole to essentially
> > everyone on RSD.
>
> hey, ya cant start a revolution......and i'm talkin about a REAL
> revolution, without rufflin a few feathers.  I'm sure there are lota
> of people that think that top level executives of sports (as well as
> other business organizations) are looked on as jerks or assholes.
> Often times thats just the kind of person it takes to get shit done.
> Many people used to think that KD was a jerk and asshole,,,,,and we
> all saw how succesful he made NYNY.  and now he's gettin ready to be
> honored into ultimates hall.  And i seriously know of no other past or
> present player that gets the same level of respect that he does, even
> by his worst enemies.  We are just the kind of people that push the
> envelope and make organizations much more successfull than they would
> have been otherwise.  so sure, we can be a little ass holish at
> times.......but does that really matter?
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Imagine him forming the professional working
>
> > relationships that would be required to bring ultimate to the 'next
> > level'.
>
> ya mean like i did with my own building and realestate management
> business that i built from the ground up that is now worth millions.
> ------------------------------------------------------------ -----
>
>  What type of third party will want to get involved with him
>
> > and growing 'his' sport given his conduct?
>
> one thats smart and wants to progress and evolve.
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>  What will the UPA BOD ever
>
> > accomplish with him grinding every deliberation to a halt?
>
> gettin refs in ulti for one. and marketing the sport A LOT better for
> another.
> ------------------------------------------------------------ -
>
>  Funny that
>
> > two of the most vocal critics of how 'inactive' the BOD is are also
> > the two that I view most likely to prevent the BOD from actually doing
> > any work.
>
> thats cause you are LITTLE FRAIDY CAT.  you are probably a
> traditionalist and you know that i represent a large chunk of ultimate
> players that (albeit not all that vocal) agree with my philosophies
> and strategies.
>
> and your desperation is shining thru more and more with every passing
> day
> ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>
>
>
> >  - MRB
>
> > We need people on the BOD that have more than their own interests at
> > heart.
>
> then we need a fuckin wholesale on that mf cause the current board
> members (save mike payne)are the ones pushing their own stale and
> tired "no refs in ulti" agenda.
>
>  -

QED
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