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NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120885] Sat, 22 September 2012 13:57 Go to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
The NorCal Mixed Sectionals has more Nationals contenders than most Regionals:
Polar Bears
Mischief
American BBQ
BlackBird
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120886 is a reply to message #120885] Sat, 22 September 2012 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
megafig
Messages: 1
Registered: September 2012
Junior Member
and grassface. the SW region has 5 bids and all of them were earned by that section. looks like ABBQ got beat today too, so who knows, maybe someone else besides those 5 could even sneak in.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120891 is a reply to message #120886] Sun, 23 September 2012 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Saturday, September 22, 2012 3:21:16 PM UTC-7, megafig wrote:
> and grassface. the SW region has 5 bids and all of them were
>
> earned by that section. looks like ABBQ got beat today too,
>
> so who knows, maybe someone else besides those 5 could even
>
> sneak in.
>
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

Top 4 will be:
Polar Bears
Mischief
American BBQ
grasSFace

Next will be:
Blackbird
BW Ultimate

I'll bet most of these Mixed teams would do very well, perhaps win, in many Regionals around the country.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120893 is a reply to message #120891] Sun, 23 September 2012 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ultimatecutter
Messages: 16
Registered: November 2010
Junior Member
Blackbird got 4th and grasSFace 5th (there were still backdoor games to be played). Otherwise I agree with everything said.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120898 is a reply to message #120893] Sun, 23 September 2012 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
SW Mixed Regionals will pretty much be a repeat of the NorCal Sectionals plus On The Rocks from LA. Has anyone seen a Section with so many elite teams (in any division)?
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120899 is a reply to message #120898] Sun, 23 September 2012 19:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clify42
Messages: 36
Registered: January 2011
Member
Did you really mean to use the words 'mixed' and 'elite' in the same post
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120900 is a reply to message #120898] Sun, 23 September 2012 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ultimatephotography
Messages: 422
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> Has anyone seen a Section with so many elite teams (in any division)?

Not sure what "elite" means in this context. I've seen enough norcal sectional teams at regionals to think that norcal is usually a couple/few teams deep, not 5. But what do i know about regionals featuring teams from the norcal section.

However, that said, the new NW is a lot weaker w/out PB/Blackbird/Mischief(on again off again). But, I'd guess it will be more of a barnburner w/ one bid, vs. the number out of the SW. Don't believe ECC, Joe, or results out of sextionals.

Although on the other hand, I'd be hard-pressed to say how many teams in the new NW are elite. One roster definitely is. No seidlers, but lots of other equally well known names. The NW is more of a mystery to me then the SW.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120902 is a reply to message #120900] Sun, 23 September 2012 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:53:59 PM UTC-7, ultimatep...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Has anyone seen a Section with so many elite teams (in any division)?
>
>
>
> Not sure what "elite" means in this context. I've seen enough norcal sectional teams at regionals to think that norcal is usually a couple/few teams deep, not 5. But what do i know about regionals featuring teams from the norcal section.
>
>
>
> However, that said, the new NW is a lot weaker w/out PB/Blackbird/Mischief(on again off again). But, I'd guess it will be more of a barnburner w/ one bid, vs. the number out of the SW. Don't believe ECC, Joe, or results out of sextionals.
>
>
>
> Although on the other hand, I'd be hard-pressed to say how many teams in the new NW are elite. One roster definitely is. No seidlers, but lots of other equally well known names. The NW is more of a mystery to me then the SW.

Elite to me means a team who has a relatively good chance of making it into the semifinals at Nationals in their division.

I don't follow NW Mixed, so no comments.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120903 is a reply to message #120899] Sun, 23 September 2012 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
On Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:55:04 PM UTC-7, clify42@>>>>>>>>>.com wrote:
> Did you really mean to use the words 'mixed' and 'elite' in
>
> the same post
>
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

I know a couple of elite Open Club players who think Mixed and Masters are a joke... I guess you do too. Personally I consider those opinions as arrogant and totally devoid of understanding what athletics is all about. And if the only valid classification of elite is in a division that can beat the best teams in any other division, then I guess you also think Women's is a joke. Fortunately, better people then you run the USAU.

Who are you Clif?
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120906 is a reply to message #120885] Mon, 24 September 2012 06:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> The NorCal Mixed Sectionals has more Nationals contenders than most Regionals:
> Polar Bears
> Mischief
> American BBQ
> BlackBird
~~~~~~~~~~~

---the section should get 5 bids to nationals, right?...so that they
can prove how mediocre they are.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120907 is a reply to message #120903] Mon, 24 September 2012 06:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
On Sep 24, 2:42 am, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:

> > Did you really mean to use the words 'mixed' and 'elite' in

> I know a couple of elite Open Club players who think Mixed and Masters are a joke... I guess you do too. Personally I consider those opinions as arrogant and totally devoid of understanding what athletics is all about. And if the only valid classification of elite is in a division that can beat the best teams in any other division, then I guess you also think Women's is a joke. Fortunately, better people then you run the USAU.
>
> Who are you Clif?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


--look out clif!
you've got a dad who has watched over 200 'elite' games mad at you!
and ya got him all...upsa is run by fine people...at you.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120908 is a reply to message #120903] Mon, 24 September 2012 06:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
On Sep 24, 2:42 am, Joe Seidler <j...@seidler.com> wrote:

> Fortunately, better people then you run the USAU.
~~~~~~~~~~~


---"then" you?
wouldn't that sort of comparison be.......THAN you?
OR....are you saying that...prior to Clif, better people ran the upsa,
and now Clif runs the upsa?

first 'better people"......then clif?
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120909 is a reply to message #120908] Mon, 24 September 2012 06:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clify42
Messages: 36
Registered: January 2011
Member
I know a couple of elite Open Club players who think Mixed and Masters are a joke... I guess you do too. Personally I consider those opinions as arrogant and totally devoid of understanding what athletics is all about. And if the only valid classification of elite is in a division that can beat the best teams in any other division, then I guess you also think Women's is a joke. Fortunately, better people then you run the USAU.

Who are you Clif?


Joe, I never said or implied Mixed is a joke only that is not elite.
I have been around this sport long enough to remember the origins of the mixed division and its eventual inclusion into the Nationals tournament in the fall. Originally Mixed had its own championship in the spring. So the first few championships were won by combo teams of the Sockeye and Riot. They didn't practice they'd just show up and win the tournament.
We'll true Mixed team started to complain about how these combo teams weren't truly teams and never practiced together and .....
So UPA moved the championships to the fall.
So my point is it's hard to call something Elite when pick-up teams from other divisions who never practice together can beat the best teams from the mixed division.

Incidentally I do not think women's teams are a joke, nor do I think master's teams are a joke either. Although I'm under no illusion that a master's team could beat an open team at Nationals.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120911 is a reply to message #120908] Mon, 24 September 2012 08:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
McKean
Messages: 16
Registered: April 2010
Junior Member
Reggie,

You are a bully. And on it's own that is not that terrible; considering this forum is strictly used for jerks like you to hijack messages and hide behind their computer screens.
Unfortunately, you are not funny at all. If you were your messages may be welcome, but they are not. You are just a boring bully.
Finally, you should not lecture anyone on grammar or formatting.

I realize RSD is a big component of your life, that seemingly brings you some joy. But you are ruining it for us. Just stop, please.

Jake McKean
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120913 is a reply to message #120909] Mon, 24 September 2012 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Butter
Messages: 20
Registered: March 2009
Junior Member
"it's hard to call something Elite when pick-up teams from other divisions who never practice together can beat the best teams"

Does this also apply to barnstorming teams of college players who knock off some of the top open teams, despite not practicing?

I never understand this argument. Pickup teams that include some of the best players in the sport render their opponents less accomplished when they sometimes win? And when they lose we just write it off, right? Players who cross over are sometimes very successful, and sometimes not, about what we'd expect at an elite level. In some games top talent wins out. Other times stronger teams prevail.


On Monday, September 24, 2012 10:00:06 AM UTC-4, clify42@>>>>>>>>>.com wrote:
> I know a couple of elite Open Club players who think Mixed
>
> and Masters are a joke... I guess you do too. Personally I
>
> consider those opinions as arrogant and totally devoid of
>
> understanding what athletics is all about. And if the only
>
> valid classification of elite is in a division that can beat
>
> the best teams in any other division, then I guess you also
>
> think Women's is a joke. Fortunately, better people then you
>
> run the USAU.
>
>
>
> Who are you Clif?
>
>
>
> Joe, I never said or implied Mixed is a joke only that is
>
> not elite.
>
> I have been around this sport long enough to remember the
>
> origins of the mixed division and its eventual inclusion
>
> into the Nationals tournament in the fall. Originally Mixed
>
> had its own championship in the spring. So the first few
>
> championships were won by combo teams of the Sockeye and
>
> Riot. They didn't practice they'd just show up and win the
>
> tournament.
>
> We'll true Mixed team started to complain about how these
>
> combo teams weren't truly teams and never practiced together
>
> and .....
>
> So UPA moved the championships to the fall.
>
> So my point is it's hard to call something Elite when
>
> pick-up teams from other divisions who never practice
>
> together can beat the best teams from the mixed division.
>
>
>
> Incidentally I do not think women's teams are a joke, nor do
>
> I think master's teams are a joke either. Although I'm under
>
> no illusion that a master's team could beat an open team at
>
> Nationals.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120914 is a reply to message #120885] Mon, 24 September 2012 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clify42
Messages: 36
Registered: January 2011
Member
No, Nearly every single Nex Gen player is already playing on an Elite open team and most of them are contributing in bid ways for those said respective teams. So in one case you have players taken from elite teams to form a new all star team. In the other case you have players (most of them) who do not have the ability or the commitment to play on an elite team (mixed) Apples to Oranges
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120917 is a reply to message #120909] Mon, 24 September 2012 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rrudnic
Messages: 194
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
On Monday, September 24, 2012 10:00:06 AM UTC-4, clify42@>>>>>>>>>.com wrote:
> So my point is it's hard to call something Elite when
>
> pick-up teams from other divisions who never practice
>
> together can beat the best teams from the mixed division.
>
>
>
> Incidentally I do not think women's teams are a joke, nor do
>
> I think master's teams are a joke either. Although I'm under
>
> no illusion that a master's team could beat an open team at
>
> Nationals.
> --
>
> Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

On pickup teams: I don't believe this is truly the case any more, you are speaking about a different era in terms of the skill of the sport. The top tier mixed teams (not all top 20 but top 4-8 at least) have plenty of players who could play elite open or womens. Plus their chemistry from playing all year and longer would be a big help against a pickup team.

A masters team could beat an open team at Nationals. The top couple teams, take Boneyard for example in Masters could beat one of the bottom teams at Nationals. Sure they aren't going to go 5-2 over the weekend or anything like that, but they could definitely win a game.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120918 is a reply to message #120914] Mon, 24 September 2012 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dusty
Messages: 159
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On Monday, September 24, 2012 12:05:05 PM UTC-4, clify42@>>>>>>>>>.com wrote:
> No, Nearly every single Nex Gen player is already playing on
>
> an Elite open team and most of them are contributing in bid
>
> ways for those said respective teams. So in one case you
>
> have players taken from elite teams to form a new all star
>
> team. In the other case you have players (most of them) who
>
> do not have the ability or the commitment to play on an
>
> elite team (mixed) Apples to Oranges

Your post is a doofus.

1. Mixed has changed over time. As the number of players playing grows, so too does the number of "elite" players. They don't all play open/women's.

2. Mixed is not an inferior division (In the past, I would have argued that it could be argued that it was), but it *is* different. I'm not very good at mixed: I get pointblocked more frequently. I get taken deep by lumbering slow guys and skied on floatily effective hucks a lot. I throw over women's heads constantly. But then, I'm still better than most at open. The spaces are different, the effective cuts are different, the defensive priorities are different, what you scan for as a thrower is different, the zones are different, the team dynamics are different... it is all just *different*. There are players who are better at single gender, there are players who are better at mixed. There are also players who are great/terrible at both.

3. Mixed teams are not made up of players who "do not have the ability or the commitment to play on an elite team". They are made up of players who want to play mixed. Like single-gendered (homogenized?) divisions are made up of players who want to play in those divisions. Similarly, on 98% (Statistic is totally anecdotal, but I've been around the block a few times) of the elite teams in all divisions there are players who are lacking either the commitment or ability or both to play at that level.

4. Masters? Masters, on the other hand, *is* a joke. Just like the senior PGA tour. This is not a comment on the players or their ability, but rather that the requirement for playing is that you be "old" by ultimate standards. This makes it a joke. But then again, all of the masters players whose opinions I know love the joke, so they keep making it and laughing. More than a few of whom could still whup ass in Open.

5. Sure, Mr. Fanelli can be a bully. But he is, in fact, funny. Not always. But no one is always anything. So... I'm not sure where this leaves us, but... I'm pretty sure we're all here. Or there. Of this much I'm sure: Literally nothing you do will make him go away or be quiet. Ignore if you like, but don't waste everyone else's time with pleas that will fall on deaf ears with fingers stuffed in them attached to a head whose mouth is singing "LALALALALALALALALALAAAALALALALALALLAAAALLLALAAAALALA... GROUND CHECK IS STUPID!" at the top of the lungs attached via neck to aforementioned boca.

Deceptisomething 4LIFE!

music on tap: homeboy sandman, the good sun

dusty.rhodes
at gmail.com
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120924 is a reply to message #120918] Mon, 24 September 2012 11:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Seidler
Messages: 482
Registered: September 2008
Location: San Francisco
Senior Member
rrudnic and dusty are right - Mixed has changed and matured a lot since its inception. The top/elite teams in Mixed who are aiming to win Nationals and wind up at least getting to the semis, train hard and would likely beat most pick-up team (unless it's a pick-up team of Open players who consistently get to the semis at Nationals).

Teams with top all-male athletes will beat non-all male top teams. But that doesn't mean non-all male team divisions do have elite teams. They do. They are the teams who get to Nationals semis due to their skill and training (just like in the Open Division). For me, teams who get to quarters but never get to the semis, are not elite. They are very good teams, but not yet at the elite level.

And the NorCal Mixed section is a very unique bird. It has the majority of the top teams in the Region. It is the only Region I think I've seen where the top 4-5 teams will likely come from the same Section.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120929 is a reply to message #120911] Mon, 24 September 2012 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> You are a bully. And on it's own that is not that terrible;
> considering this forum is strictly used for jerks like you
> to hijack messages and hide behind their computer screens.


---jake....is what you've just done 'hijacking a message'...because it
doesn't seem on topic.
are you what you hate so much?
often times, what people hate most in others...is what they hate most
in themselves.
maybe you're the jerk you're looking for.
~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, you are not funny at all.


---i didn't even try to be at all funny.....
yeah...just double checked. no effort to be funny.
can't even see where you'd think i was trying to be funny.
i was being 'matter of fact'-ish.
~~~~~~~~~~~
If you were your
> messages may be welcome, but they are not. You are just a
> boring bully.


---when i try to be funny, i'm funny.
when i'm blunt, i'm blunt.
when i'm matter of fact...i'm matter of fact.
when i give an opinion...i'm giving an opinion

what are you doing.....bullying?....and hijacking....and going off
topic???
~~~~~~~~
> Finally, you should not lecture anyone on grammar or
> formatting.


---why can't i lecture on grammar or formatting?
can you?
i mean.....is the upa run by people better THEN you or by people
better THAN you.
isn't 'then' some sort of time thing....and 'than' is some sort of
comparative thing?

when is my grammar poor?
can't think of a time.
~~~~~~~~~
> I realize RSD is a big component of your life, that
> seemingly brings you some joy. But you are ruining it for
> us. Just stop, please.


---i was on topic.....what are you doing for rsd?
~~~~~~~~~~
> Jake McKean


---who's that?
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120931 is a reply to message #120918] Mon, 24 September 2012 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> 5.  Sure, Mr. Fanelli can be a bully.  But he is, in fact, funny.  Not always.  But no one is always anything.  So... I'm not sure where this leaves us, but... I'm pretty sure we're all here.  Or there.  Of this much I'm sure:  Literally nothing you do will make him go away or be quiet.  Ignore if you like, but don't waste everyone else's time with pleas that will fall on deaf ears with fingers stuffed in them attached to a head whose mouth is singing "LALALALALALALALALALAAAALALALALALALLAAAALLLALAAAALALA... GROUND CHECK IS STUPID!" at the top of the lungs attached via neck to aforementioned boca.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


---i've never stuffed fingers in my ears and sung or shouted that "THE
GROUND CHECK IS STUPID!"
there's no need to shout....when it's obviously useless, senseless and
unnecessary.
some nincompoop with some weird need to force a dumb idea onto others
tricked some other morons into agreeing that the game can't be played
without a thrower leaning down and tapping the frisbee on the ground
for no reason....and it'd be cool for the sport and those who play
under that association's rules to ditch that inane rule.
i've never sung or shouted about it at the 'top of my lungs'

bunch of ya'll rsders don't read things correctly.....and that's....a
you problem.
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120932 is a reply to message #120924] Mon, 24 September 2012 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> rrudnic and dusty are right - Mixed has changed and matured a lot since its inception.
~~~~~~~~~


---curiously....has it matured since 'then' or since 'than'?
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120938 is a reply to message #120931] Mon, 24 September 2012 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dusty
Messages: 159
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On Monday, September 24, 2012 3:21:07 PM UTC-4, Reggie Fanelli wrote:

> ---i've never stuffed fingers in my ears and sung or shouted that "THE
> GROUND CHECK IS STUPID!"
>
> there's no need to shout....when it's obviously useless, senseless and
> unnecessary.
>
> some nincompoop with some weird need to force a dumb idea onto others
> tricked some other morons into agreeing that the game can't be played
> without a thrower leaning down and tapping the frisbee on the ground
> for no reason....and it'd be cool for the sport and those who play
> under that association's rules to ditch that inane rule.
> i've never sung or shouted about it at the 'top of my lungs'
>
> bunch of ya'll rsders don't read things correctly.....and that's....a
> you problem.

Well, I'm not sure you've *never* stuck your fingers in your ears and sung. I believe you when you type that you've never shouted "The ground check is stupid".

I was, however, accurately representing that telling you to "shut up" is experientially similar to telling someone who cannot hear you to shut up. Huh. I like the first version better with the image of someone with their fingers in their ears singing and the implications about the source of the noise and impediments to hearing.

BUT-- you are correct in correcting me, so I sit corrected.

music on tap: immortal technique, the 3rd world

dusty.rhodes
at gmail.com
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120942 is a reply to message #120918] Mon, 24 September 2012 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bulb
Messages: 1093
Registered: September 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Senior Member
dusty wrote on Mon, 24 September 2012 12:58
1. Mixed has changed over time. As the number of players playing grows, so too does the number of "elite" players. They don't all play open/women's.

But has the proportion of players who might be considered "elite" changed? (Serious question.)

dusty wrote on Mon, 24 September 2012 12:58
2. Mixed is not an inferior division (In the past, I would have argued that it could be argued that it was), but it *is* different. I'm not very good at mixed: I get pointblocked more frequently. I get taken deep by lumbering slow guys and skied on floatily effective hucks a lot. I throw over women's heads constantly. But then, I'm still better than most at open. The spaces are different, the effective cuts are different, the defensive priorities are different, what you scan for as a thrower is different, the zones are different, the team dynamics are different... it is all just *different*. There are players who are better at single gender, there are players who are better at mixed. There are also players who are great/terrible at both.

Hear hear. To further the point...

If you take any random set of male players and one random female player (let's call her Carol), there probably exists a significant subset of all the possible pairings of the men for which the following is true:

For any pair in the subset (let's call them Al and Bert), 7 clones of Al would (more often than not) beat 7 clones of Bert, but 4 clones of Al and 3 clones of Carol would (more often than not) lose to 4 clones of Bert and 3 clones of Carol.

This subset will also likely change a fair bit if the gender ratio is 3:4. Or if Carol is a handler vs. cutter. Or if it's windy. And so on and so forth.

The same concept would apply to any random set of female players and one random male player, but I believe the subset would be smaller on average. Although I think there would be another (perhaps bigger?) subset for which playing with the male clones would only make the game more lopsided. The analogous subset for men would be quite small.

Point being, as Dusty said, Mixed is just... different.

Anyway, back on topic... having played against grasSFace, it's scary to think they finished 5th in their section...
Re: NorCal Mixed Sectionals Tougher Than Most Regionals [message #120943 is a reply to message #120938] Mon, 24 September 2012 17:39 Go to previous message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
> Well, I'm not sure you've *never* stuck your fingers in your ears and sung.


----i've stuck my fingers in my ears to not hear the crap you seem to
always be listening to....
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