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Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119192] Sun, 05 August 2012 11:56 Go to next message
Slip83
Messages: 60
Registered: December 2010
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Member
Should the AUDL championship game next Sunday be boycotted?

We all know the stories at this point about what the league is doing to its teams. We also have no idea if the best team in the league is playing in the championship either. Could Connecticut have beaten Philly? It's certainly possible.

Should we show support for the league and pay for its grand finale in hopes that professional ultimate continues?

Or should we show support to Connecticut and Rhode Island and the other owners and teams who may have been mistreated by their own league?
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119193 is a reply to message #119192] Sun, 05 August 2012 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
california_encounter
Messages: 97
Registered: February 2010
Member
the AUDL playoffs are going on??? who knew.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119194 is a reply to message #119193] Sun, 05 August 2012 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
discman27
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2012
Junior Member
Absolutely show support to the AUDL, The bugs from this year will work out for both the league and the teams. I understand it is easy to point fingers at the league or the teams. However, things happen with a start up league and I'm sure there working hard on correcting the issues internally to make the league better for next year. Pro Ultimate is here to stay. I think its a great opportunity for the AUDL and USUA to bring the sport we love to the big stage. Maybe the olympics in the future, this would be epic.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119196 is a reply to message #119194] Sun, 05 August 2012 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 992
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
don' t boycott...
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119197 is a reply to message #119194] Sun, 05 August 2012 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 992
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
don' t boycott...
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119198 is a reply to message #119194] Sun, 05 August 2012 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trainultimate
Messages: 15
Registered: July 2012
Location: New Jersey
Junior Member
Connecticut was held back by the AUDL because they challenged impropriety. The result of that was that they were not allowed to challenge the Spinners even as they held the 2nd best record in the league. Is that how you run a league and make it better? Clearly the league has made a huge mistake by not allowing the best teams to play. The results of that made the Eastern Division playoffs near anti climactic.

The question at the end of the day will be..... was CT better than Philly? The AUDL didn't allow us to ever know that. That is wrong! It does make the Championship game very questionable.

Boycott? You be the judge.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119200 is a reply to message #119192] Sun, 05 August 2012 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cncventure
Messages: 74
Registered: November 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member
Slip83 wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 11:56
Should the AUDL championship game next Sunday be boycotted?
Not if you have any aspirations for ultimate players one day having a true professional league.

Quote:
Should we show support for the league and pay for its grand finale in hopes that professional ultimate continues?
Neither RI, CT or the AUDL need the ultimate community's support on this matter and it frankly has nothing to do with us.

It's just a business disrupt over a contract and they will work it out amongst themselves (they happen all the time in the real world) I know it's steals a lot of attention because it's gossip worthy, fascinating and allows people to have an opinion but the regular ultimate player's opinion on the matter is irrelevant and inconsequential.

Plus, if you turn up and watch the final you are not saying "I support the AUDL" you are saying "I support ultimate"... the AUDL are just the ones organising the show, and good on them for doing so.

If anything ALL three parties stand to gain MUCH more if people do get to the game and support because how this season ends could considerably influence how the next season starts, and assuming that all three parties plan to be there in 2013 I think that is what they should care about more.

I'm actually REALLY interested to see how what sort of crowd they can get. Will it set a new record? Could it potentially get 3000+?

Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119203 is a reply to message #119192] Sun, 05 August 2012 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anakin gerics
Messages: 1362
Registered: November 2009
Senior Member
> Should the AUDL championship game next Sunday be boycotted?
~~~~~~~~~~

---only if you're too far away to attend.
otherwise....be there....with bells on.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119206 is a reply to message #119203] Sun, 05 August 2012 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
california_encounter
Messages: 97
Registered: February 2010
Member
How can I decide to boycott it or not if I didnt even know it was happening? How do I even watch it? The contract disputes dont bother me, its their complete lack of desire to reach out to the ultimate community as potential fans.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119209 is a reply to message #119206] Sun, 05 August 2012 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CanisMajor
Messages: 46
Registered: January 2012
Location: Boston
Member
california_encounter wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 20:51
How can I decide to boycott it or not if I didnt even know it was happening? How do I even watch it? The contract disputes dont bother me, its their complete lack of desire to reach out to the ultimate community as potential fans.


The Indy Alleycats and other AUDL teams have been promoting the hell out of the game for a couple of weeks now, offering discount promo codes for tickets etc. Even the sometimes deaf/mute league office has been promoting the game via FB as well. The game will be broadcast on PPV and that has been getting Facebook status updates as well.

The AlleyCats have also been organizing and promoting bus trips for Indy fans to the game.

Philly has been a bit preoccupied with the playoff game they played last night, but I fully expect a full court press from them on promoting the game now that they've punched their ticket to the game.


Mark
ex-Head Referee
RI Rampage (RIP)
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119211 is a reply to message #119209] Sun, 05 August 2012 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
california_encounter
Messages: 97
Registered: February 2010
Member
promoting the hell out of it? I havent seen a single post about it here, which is, as far as I know, the most read ultimate message board. There is nothing about it on reddit.com/r/ultimate, which has almost 5000 subscribers. I am on several large ultimate listserves, and havent seen it. I hardly call ignoring the largest ultimate cites promoting.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119212 is a reply to message #119211] Sun, 05 August 2012 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CanisMajor
Messages: 46
Registered: January 2012
Location: Boston
Member
california_encounter wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 22:45
promoting the hell out of it? I havent seen a single post about it here, which is, as far as I know, the most read ultimate message board. There is nothing about it on reddit.com/r/ultimate, which has almost 5000 subscribers. I am on several large ultimate listserves, and havent seen it. I hardly call ignoring the largest ultimate cites promoting.


I would think that Facebook has a little bit bigger reach than RSD or Reddit, but to each his own Smile


Mark
ex-Head Referee
RI Rampage (RIP)
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119215 is a reply to message #119212] Sun, 05 August 2012 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
california_encounter
Messages: 97
Registered: February 2010
Member
CanisMajor wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 19:55
california_encounter wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 22:45
promoting the hell out of it? I havent seen a single post about it here, which is, as far as I know, the most read ultimate message board. There is nothing about it on reddit.com/r/ultimate, which has almost 5000 subscribers. I am on several large ultimate listserves, and havent seen it. I hardly call ignoring the largest ultimate cites promoting.


I would think that Facebook has a little bit bigger reach than RSD or Reddit, but to each his own Smile


why wouldnt you advertise on all three?
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119219 is a reply to message #119215] Mon, 06 August 2012 05:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ilyas
Messages: 113
Registered: January 2012
Senior Member
There was a dude on here selling tickets to the championship game.
There have been posts from the Columbus Cranes about their exclusion from the playoffs.
They have been mentioned in numerous other posts. I think you missed the info, it's here (among many other places).

That being said, the AUDL's goal has never been to market to Ultimate players. So if they didn't reach you specifically it's not their biggest problem.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119223 is a reply to message #119192] Mon, 06 August 2012 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
buckeyenutt13
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2012
Junior Member
Thank you for noting the Cranes' situation. They played a season 3-forfeits in the hole (2 losses for them, 1 free win for Det/Indy/Lex) to each team in their division. They missed out on the playoffs by 1 game.

The Final could have easily been the Cranes v. Constitution, two teams that had little to no communication from the League the 2nd half of the season.

I wonder if new franchise owners know what they are getting into.

Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119225 is a reply to message #119223] Mon, 06 August 2012 08:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Knappy
Messages: 830
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
why would you punish the sport, players & teams for the idiotic, immature decisions of Josh Moore?


Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119226 is a reply to message #119219] Mon, 06 August 2012 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
california_encounter
Messages: 97
Registered: February 2010
Member
this baffles me. there have been discussions ABOUT the audl and Connecticut(who isn't even in the playoffs!), but nothing from the audl and certainly not specifics on day and time and how to watch. I am exceedingly baffled by their unwillingness to promote the casual ultimate player as a fan. I equate this to MLB saying they aren't going to promote to little league players, or players in adult leagues. Or the MLS saying they don't care if people that play pickup soccer on the weekends watch the games. I understand that for long term success they need more than just ultimate players as fans, but it seems odd to me that in season one they aren't spamming every possible outlet where there might be a casual player who would pay a couple bucks to watch it.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119227 is a reply to message #119192] Mon, 06 August 2012 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
http://theaudl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=art icle&id=110:championship-tickets&catid=13:featured-n ews&Itemid=71

exactly one click from the AUDL homepage
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119230 is a reply to message #119226] Mon, 06 August 2012 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jtj22
Messages: 111
Registered: February 2011
Senior Member
Well, if you read rsd, you know about the AUDL. If the AUDL interests you, you would follow them on facebook or check the website which would have all the championship game information you desire.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119231 is a reply to message #119226] Mon, 06 August 2012 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pushpass
Messages: 18
Registered: June 2012
Location: Sacramento, CA
Junior Member
I don't think a boycott would really do much in this instance. The only purpose of such an act would be to try to drive attendance number down and make it difficult to sell the AUDL to investors. Josh Moore has already sold a large number of franchises, which will roll out over the next couple years. As discussed in previous AUDL threads, the league's only means of directly generating revenue is through selling franchises and possibly advertising.

The individual franchises are the teams with a financial steak in the finals as far as we know, and I haven't really seen any reason to withdraw support from them.

In fact, I've had a few interactions with the Alley Cats owner as a result of some problems I had with an order I placed on their online store. He has always been pretty on top of things. Plus, it speaks to scale when the owner is responding to customers about online merchandise sales. That is the kind of organization I'm willing to support.


Kevin

I have a blog if that is the sort of thing that interests you:

www.pushpass.wordpress.com
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119256 is a reply to message #119226] Mon, 06 August 2012 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anakin gerics
Messages: 1362
Registered: November 2009
Senior Member
but
> nothing from the audl and certainly not specifics on day and
> time and how to watch. I am exceedingly baffled by their
> unwillingness to promote the casual ultimate player as a
> fan.
~~~~~~~~~

---maybe they should send all casual ultimate players a private email?
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119258 is a reply to message #119256] Mon, 06 August 2012 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Why would you boycott the AUDL at this point? If you want to see "professional" Ultimate in a championship context, this is it. In fact, there is a good chance that this will be the only AUDL championship game ever played in the league's entire miserable existence. If you are in the area, go see it. Support your sport and your fellow athletes.

Why boycott? Because the AUDL is based on a flimsy, irresponsible business plan? Because the league is ran by guys who never gave two fucks about Ultimate or even knew anything about Ultimate before the league was founded? Because most of how the creation, marketing, and sustaining of the league has been laughably awful? Because the AUDL format changes too much about what we all knew to be Ultimate beforehand? Because the AUDL is destined to fail sooner than later anyway? Because Josh Moore's motivations, methods, and abilities have been suspect since we first heard his name?

Well, these are all things that we knew (or should have known) to be true about the AUDL from the very beginning. The recent debacles with contracts, expansion, forfeits, or whatever has not changed any of those things, and should not be surprising to anyone.

Besides, from the looks of videos and anecdotal evidence about attendance figures, Ultimate fans have already been boycotting any AUDL game at the Silverdome anyway. I'm sure 200-ish lucky fans will revel in witnessing history on Sunday.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119263 is a reply to message #119258] Mon, 06 August 2012 21:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anondo
Messages: 6
Registered: July 2012
Junior Member
[quote title=Baer wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 19:20]
> Why boycott? Because the AUDL is based on a flimsy, irresponsible business plan? Because the league is ran by guys who never gave two fucks about Ultimate or even knew anything about Ultimate before the league was founded?

According to the espn or SI article that was posted on here a short while back, Josh Moore played ulty in college (or at least in high school). So it's not like he has zero appreciation for the game.


> Because most of how the creation, marketing, and sustaining of the league has been laughably awful? Because the AUDL format changes too much

Laughably awful compared to what exactly, what you remember of how it was when the NFL or NBA was being created?? And what again is your brilliant plan for creating a new professional sports league?


Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119273 is a reply to message #119192] Tue, 07 August 2012 06:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 992
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
Baer typed: "Because the league is ran by guys who never gave two fucks about Ultimate or even knew anything about Ultimate before the league was founded? "


This sort of statement gets tossed around pretty regularly about AUDL creator Josh Moore.

Not sure i can stand by that statement....

I don't think Josh Moore is just a bean counter. Like many of the louder voices on rsdnospam, he's probably a bit of a sports fan in general...a Big Fan you might say.
Plus we do know he had some contact with ultimate here on the Mizzou campus.

You don't have to be completely entrenched in a sport to dig it. Just as you don't have to have won a USA Ultimate national championship to know a bit about ultimate.


I've never followed a pro or college sports team for a season in my life and have yet to pay for a AUDL viewing. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy ultimate to the core though.

My few cents,etc.


Peter McCarthy
Midwest Disc Sports Collection
State Historical Society of Missouri
Mizzou Campus
Columbia, MO 65201

http://shs.umsystem.edu/manuscripts/collections/mdsc/support .shtml

"Archiving disc sports since 1997."
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119276 is a reply to message #119273] Tue, 07 August 2012 07:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oldstyle
Messages: 23
Registered: December 2011
Junior Member
I coached a college team for three years, I captained a Master's Team at Nationals last year (and will again this year hopefully), I've played at Poultry days a bunch, I've made the trip to Potlatch, I captain the longest running competitive team (10 years) in MUFA (Madison Ultimate Frisbee Association), and now I own an AUDL team. I love the sport, I can't get enough of it. I can absolutely verify that no one is out there trying to rip anyone off. This isn't a scam, it's just a random group of people trying to create a league that is better for the players and better for the fans.

All this talk of poor business models is ridiculous. The model is pretty simple, we organize a team, we promote the team, we hope to bring in enough revenue to cover the costs of travel and uniforms, and maybe make a few dollars. Right now, this obviously is not a get rich quick scheme. Not even for Josh. If you think Josh is getting rich off this you have a very poor understanding of how much money is actually on the table. As far as I can tell Josh has done more to promote the sport than 99% of you RSD jockeys that "love" the sport so much. I don't mean to attack anyone, I just don't see what the value of trying to take down the league is? Obviously the Connecticut situation is unfortunate, and both sides, I think, are to blame. But isn't it great that at least some players can go through a season without accruing a few thousand dollars in costs? And they can play in front of a crowd? We ran a test game last weekend and for me, the game is way more watchable and playable.

In Madison we are going to do everything we can to make the game fun for our community, while still trying to make new fans of the game. I hope that the the existing national Ultimate community continues to support what we are trying to do.

Go Radicals!
Tim
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119279 is a reply to message #119276] Tue, 07 August 2012 07:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
buckeyenutt13
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2012
Junior Member
Good luck getting any support from the league. In theory, pro Ultimate should do good for the sport.

In reality, it has caused more frustration to dedicated owners and players than it's worth. Most players are just very happy the season has ended and they can get back to their respective USAU Club teams to get away from the drama-filled season in dealing with the AUDL.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119281 is a reply to message #119192] Tue, 07 August 2012 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
I hope that the the existing national Ultimate community continues to support what we are trying to do.



unfortunately, a good deal of the national ultimate community does not have a great grasp on the phrase, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good."

Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119284 is a reply to message #119281] Tue, 07 August 2012 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
buckeyenutt13
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2012
Junior Member
No one expects the AUDL to be perfect. What has been expected and vastly under-supplied is clear / accurate / timely communication from the league office and equitable treatment of teams .. neither of which was provided.

People can get involved in any capacity they want. Each day we have the opportunity to choose to spend money on unwise investments.

But real organizers, coaches, captains, and leaders of Ultimate have had a lot of negative experiences with this league.

Perfection was never expected. Some semblance of organization was.

Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119293 is a reply to message #119276] Tue, 07 August 2012 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trainultimate
Messages: 15
Registered: July 2012
Location: New Jersey
Junior Member
Tim,

Yes, the AUDL is a business model, but, is it the right business model for a professional sports league? You should do your due diligence and get answers to that question and probably many more before you start plunking down your hard earned investable dollars.

You should spend some time talking to the other team owners, other than the team owners that sit on the league side of the table and learn more about what the AUDL has or hasn't done for the owners and for the sport. You might be very surprised.




Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119303 is a reply to message #119293] Tue, 07 August 2012 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donovd
Messages: 241
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
I love what a lot of the owners have done and I wish they continue to promote the sport at the professional level. So a boycott to me would just discourage that. But I would support any sort of grassroots movement to toss Josh Moore out on his ass.

He literally adds nothing to the league. People pay him 5 grand for absolutely nothing. From day 1 people including me have said that the scam here is the franchise tags. Now that organizations have shown that professional ultimate has the potential to be profitable I want to support them however I can. Josh Moore actually hurts existing owners because he has no incentive to help them. He makes money by asking people for a donation to his wallet. The league should restructure so that a commissioner is an employee of the league and serves the owners' best interests.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119306 is a reply to message #119293] Tue, 07 August 2012 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oldstyle
Messages: 23
Registered: December 2011
Junior Member
Hey Train,
I think it's possible that a lot of the original owners got into this relationship with the AUDL with pretty high expectations for what the league would provide. We are paying Josh very little, and so I expect very little from him. The only thing I expect from him is to ensure that if a team is scheduled to come to Madison that the team shows up and provides a quality game for my team.

We are spending our time and money marketing the events locally, reserving a stadium etc..there is almost nothing he can do to help us make this a success at a local level. Frankly I am amazed he has managed to get this far with as few problems as he's had. The good news that in year 2 more franchises with ultimate experience are coming online. I expect that will lead to a better league, but I don't know. Either way, I have low expectations for the amount of help we will get from the League (Josh has not promised us anything) so I suspect it would be hard for me to be disappointed.

As far as defining our season as a success. If we can field a competitive team (think Spinners), average 400-500 fans a night, give those fans some quality entertainment, and not lose our asses in the process, we'll be pretty happy.
Tim
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119317 is a reply to message #119306] Tue, 07 August 2012 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Oldstyle, thanks for being an owner willing to jump into a discussion. Can I ask a few questions? Before deciding to purchase a franchise, what research did you conduct to determine if the franchise and league could be profitable? What impressed you about Josh Moore, and what led you to believe that his business plan is one that can turn Ultimate into a profitable spectator sport? What expertise or resources does he offer? What did other franchise owners tell you about the past, present, and future of the league to give you confidence in the venture? What are your expectations?
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119322 is a reply to message #119317] Tue, 07 August 2012 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oldstyle
Messages: 23
Registered: December 2011
Junior Member
Well a couple of things, first I have a few non-ultimate partners, so the risk is somewhat spread-out. I had for years thought about started an Pro league, but just didn't have the drive to do it. I'm glad Josh did. You make it seem like Josh is somehow more important than the franchises. To me the league's success will be measured on a local level first and foremost. From what I have seen the Spinners are doing good things. I think Madison can match what they are doing.

There is no amount of business analysis that can tell you if a form of entertainment is gong to be a success or a failure. We aren't selling widgets, we are selling fun. Is Ultimate fun? You tell me? Last year I watched all the NexGen stuff like 5 times each. And the downfall of Sockeye like 10 times. I found it all to be super entertaining, and this is in a very raw form. There is no reason why Ultimate can't be a great spectator sport. It's not like Football was predestined to become the monster that it is. It took a bunch of crazy people years and years to make so successful.

Same with the NBA, they are always tweaking rules for the fans. That is the key though, you give up something when you turn it into a spectator sport. The spectators have to come first. I love the self-officiated aspect of the game. I really do. But it doesn't work. The game (when it reaches the highest point of drama) falls apart. Last year I watched Ironside and Chain play in semi's. It was an amazing game, right up until it wasn't. The pressure to win turns the game into a mess. I think if you watch the clips of Canada and Japan you can't help but think, "what are these guys doing?" The Hibbert travel dive into the defender call is absolutely crazy. Can you imagine if you had thousands of fans cheering for Japan and they had to live with the outcome of that play? It's borderline WWE stuff. It will never work.

Anyway the point is this League (like 99% of all businesses) is neither predestined to fail or succeed. If we, owners and players, can show fans our passion for the game I think we have a good chance of having some sort of success. I am sure we will lose a lot of franchises along the way, but that's probably just part of the process.

As far as starting a business, the amount of money we are risking is low, and amount we stand to gain is probably pretty low too, unless you count advancing the popularity of the game. The AUDL has been ESPN several times now, there was the great article in SI, and I think it was mentioned on the Jimmy Fallon show. That's all cool stuff, and good for the sport. Did Josh make that happen? Not directly, but if wouldn't have happened without him, so I give the guy some props. Anyone of us could have tried to start a Pro-league, but we didn't, and he did.
Re: Boycott the AUDL Championship Game? [message #119358 is a reply to message #119322] Wed, 08 August 2012 15:21 Go to previous message
Zack
Messages: 59
Registered: May 2009
Member
Wow, that was one of the most constructive and well-written posts on RSD ever. Thanks for sharing an owner's perspective!
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