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working the system [message #119078] Wed, 01 August 2012 08:05 Go to next message
panda
Messages: 51
Registered: May 2010
Location: michigan
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/olympics--eight-badminton-playe rs-booted-from-olympics-for-throwing-matches.html



An example of teams trying to work the system by deliberately losing for their benefit.

The IOC decided to disqualify 8 badminton players for participating in that strategy.

Will another certain governing sports body decide to make changes in order to avoid teams\players intentionally losing games in efforts to gain advantages through a tournament system?


I know this is an olympic competition..but if the guys at the top have decided this is foul play, i would think they are on to something.
Re: working the system [message #119086 is a reply to message #119078] Wed, 01 August 2012 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigg_nate
Messages: 28
Registered: November 2011
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Or we could, you know, design a system that doesn't give you an incentive to lose ...
Re: working the system [message #119091 is a reply to message #119078] Wed, 01 August 2012 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
it's unrealistic to design a system that doesn't reward losing ever. the system in badminton is similar to ultimate, the 2 seed from a group plays the 1 seed in the elimination round. someone upset the chinese in their group so some teams in another group decided that it was better to come in second and play the 1 seed. the system sounds fair and looks fair and doesn't seem to reward losing but an upset of a team that is percieved to be dominant creates a situation where losing is "better" than winning.

the teams were punished because it was pretty blatant that they were trying to lose and they ruined the game but there could be situations or sports where it was more difficult to tell that a team was throwing a game.

Re: working the system [message #119095 is a reply to message #119078] Wed, 01 August 2012 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
panda
Messages: 51
Registered: May 2010
Location: michigan
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well, single elimination completely extinguishes rewarding losers.

unless you view going home early as a reward.
Re: working the system [message #119098 is a reply to message #119095] Wed, 01 August 2012 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reid K
Messages: 39
Registered: October 2008
Member
This has happened multiple times since college nationals became 20
teams with lots of byes. a 3-0 team that had clinched first in its
pool rested their starters, lost, and as a result the team that was
fortunate enough to play them last got a probably undeserved win and
knocked another team out of bracket play.
Re: working the system [message #119100 is a reply to message #119078] Wed, 01 August 2012 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
panda
Messages: 51
Registered: May 2010
Location: michigan
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resting started is a lot different than throwing a game.

now if these players were intentionally throwing poor passes and showed no effort or ambition to score, then its relatable. changing a line up to rest starters or give different players experience after securing a birth is smart tactics and not relatable to this specific conversation in my opinion.
Re: working the system [message #119101 is a reply to message #119091] Wed, 01 August 2012 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigg_nate
Messages: 28
Registered: November 2011
Junior Member
thefan wrote on Wed, 01 August 2012 12:22
the system in badminton is similar to ultimate, the 2 seed from a group plays the 1 seed in the elimination round. someone upset the chinese in their group so some teams in another group decided that it was better to come in second and play the 1 seed. the system sounds fair and looks fair and doesn't seem to reward losing but an upset of a team that is percieved to be dominant creates a situation where losing is "better" than winning.


Right. That's why this format is bad. One fix would be to make the elimination round double-elimination, with the two-seeds entering the round with a loss. Another potential fix is to play games simultaneously or re-arrange the schedule so that teams don't enter their final games with full knowledge that losing is beneficial. I'm sure there are other fixes.

There are many occasions in sports where one of the participants doesn't try as hard as possible RIGHT THEN because doing so would detract from the overall goal. Track cyclists gain an advantage by purposely riding slower than their opponents until the final lap. NFL teams rest their starters in week 17 to avoid injury. Swimmers swim a little slow in the semis to save energy for the finals. I don't understand why we're singling out badminton. If you don't like the incentives the rules create, change the rules.
Re: working the system [message #119103 is a reply to message #119100] Wed, 01 August 2012 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jed
Messages: 175
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
I haven't entirely though this through, and there are complications, but...

What if instead of match ups being automatically dictated (e.g. 1 vs 4, 2 vs. 3, etc.), the 1 seed gets to choose their opponent. 2 seed chooses next, and so on if necessary. It could get messy for large events, but there would always be an incentive to finish as high as possible. Might be worth a little extra admin.
Re: working the system [message #119105 is a reply to message #119103] Wed, 01 August 2012 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pacemaker
Messages: 85
Registered: April 2011
Member
Jed,

I had suggested a system like this for league tournaments. Sometimes a clear ringer team placed low during the regular season and might meet the first place team in the first round.

Teams are 1-16 place based on prior results. Each team enters in a rank-order list of who they do not want to face. This is done without collusion(KEY!).

So team 1 places their least desired opponent team to 2's side.

Team 2 then puts their two least desired opponents not yet placed on 1's side.

Team 1 then puts their two least desired opponents not yet placed on 2's side.

etc..

Once those half brackets are made, the process repeats between the two highest rated teams in each half-bracket.

pacemaker
Re: working the system [message #119126 is a reply to message #119105] Thu, 02 August 2012 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donovd
Messages: 241
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
The difference is in the rules of the sport. Badminton has rules that explicitly say you "must use your best efforts to win". Ultimate doesn't have this rule.

In ultimate it is semi-acceptable practice to game the brackets a bit. Also its perfectly acceptable to rest starters. In a different format that doesn't require you to play for 8 hours a day, aka the Olympics I think it is more reasonable that players are giving their best efforts throughout.

Bottom line though, like a lot of people above had said, finding a format that is non-game-able is important. Bracket play is very straight forward, the only draw back is in really relies on good seeding. Hopefully this regular season allows us to seed better in the future and play more straight bracket play formats.
Re: working the system [message #119151 is a reply to message #119126] Fri, 03 August 2012 08:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steww
Messages: 2
Registered: August 2011
Location: NEBRASKA
Junior Member
"Spirit of the Game"

I believe that covers the whole 'don't throw the match' thing.
Re: working the system [message #119153 is a reply to message #119078] Fri, 03 August 2012 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Beer
Messages: 21
Registered: April 2009
Junior Member
This should probably be added to the discussion:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/news/britains-hindes- admits-to-crashing-purposely-in-team-sprint_232933

But yeah, if people make policies that encourage a certain behavior I don't see why people should be outraged when they are only acting in a rational fashion. I think it's the flaunting of it that actually gets at people more.



Re: working the system [message #119175 is a reply to message #119151] Sat, 04 August 2012 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anakin gerics
Messages: 1362
Registered: November 2009
Senior Member
> "Spirit of the Game"
>
> I believe that covers the whole 'don't throw the match'
> thing.
~~~~~~~~

---there's no "spirit of the game" in UOA ultimate.....so......
Re: working the system [message #119217 is a reply to message #119175] Sun, 05 August 2012 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smash-crunch
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2011
Junior Member
The Japanese women's soccer team purposely played South Africa to a tie for a better position in the tournament. They were not punished in any way for this.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/london/soccer/story/ 2012-08-01/Japan-soccer-not-win-Olympics/56657300/1
Re: working the system [message #119239 is a reply to message #119217] Mon, 06 August 2012 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ultimateernie
Messages: 3
Registered: August 2009
Junior Member
I think a lot of teams/sports do this...but not a lot of teams admit it openly to the media.
Re: working the system [message #119266 is a reply to message #119151] Mon, 06 August 2012 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donovd
Messages: 241
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
steww wrote on Fri, 03 August 2012 11:43
"Spirit of the Game"

I believe that covers the whole 'don't throw the match' thing.


"Spirit of the Game: Ultimate relies upon a spirit of sportsmanship that places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate unsportsmanlike conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression, belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other win-at-all-costs behavior are contrary to the spirit of the game and must be avoided by all players."

Nothing in their says I have to play to win and certainly there is nothing that penalizes me for failing to play to win.


Re: working the system [message #119267 is a reply to message #119266] Mon, 06 August 2012 22:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oldand slow
Messages: 121
Registered: March 2010
Senior Member
donovd wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 22:41
steww wrote on Fri, 03 August 2012 11:43
"Spirit of the Game"

I believe that covers the whole 'don't throw the match' thing.


"Spirit of the Game: Ultimate relies upon a spirit of sportsmanship that places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate unsportsmanlike conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression, belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other win-at-all-costs behavior are contrary to the spirit of the game and must be avoided by all players."

Nothing in their says I have to play to win and certainly there is nothing that penalizes me for failing to play to win.



"Highly competitive play is encouraged" No penalties, but the SOTG does seem to be in favor of competitive play.
Re: working the system [message #119272 is a reply to message #119267] Tue, 07 August 2012 05:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Parag
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2011
Junior Member
Oldand slow wrote on Tue, 07 August 2012 01:57
donovd wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 22:41
steww wrote on Fri, 03 August 2012 11:43
"Spirit of the Game"

I believe that covers the whole 'don't throw the match' thing.


"Spirit of the Game: Ultimate relies upon a spirit of sportsmanship that places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate unsportsmanlike conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression, belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other win-at-all-costs behavior are contrary to the spirit of the game and must be avoided by all players."

Nothing in their says I have to play to win and certainly there is nothing that penalizes me for failing to play to win.



"Highly competitive play is encouraged" No penalties, but the SOTG does seem to be in favor of competitive play.


Of course highly competitive play is encouraged. Why would you encourage non-competitive play? The point is that it is not a requirement to try to win in Ultimate like it is in other sports, such as Badminton. Though I actually looked up the rules & laws for badminton and while the rule does pretty much run how donovd has stated, it does not have any clear penalties associated with it. It only has something along the lines of the offending player/team may face disciplinary action. I would think that would have to be defined a little more clearly in order to kick teams out of the Olympics, but that's just my opinion.

Either way, as this spans across so many sports, I think these issues are more a function of the schedule/format more than anything else. I still haven't really heard a legitimate argument for allowing the top seed(s) to pick their opponent at the start of the elimination rounds. Why can't that work?
Re: working the system [message #119277 is a reply to message #119267] Tue, 07 August 2012 07:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mozaic
Messages: 141
Registered: February 2011
Senior Member
Oldand slow wrote on Tue, 07 August 2012 01:57
donovd wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 22:41
steww wrote on Fri, 03 August 2012 11:43
"Spirit of the Game"

I believe that covers the whole 'don't throw the match' thing.


"Spirit of the Game: Ultimate relies upon a spirit of sportsmanship that places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate unsportsmanlike conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression, belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other win-at-all-costs behavior are contrary to the spirit of the game and must be avoided by all players."

Nothing in their says I have to play to win and certainly there is nothing that penalizes me for failing to play to win.



"Highly competitive play is encouraged" No penalties, but the SOTG does seem to be in favor of competitive play.


Would also think the "win at all costs" section would cover purposely throwing a game to get an easier path to the final...
Re: working the system [message #119286 is a reply to message #119277] Tue, 07 August 2012 08:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thefan
Messages: 1059
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
I still haven't really heard a legitimate argument for allowing the top seed(s) to pick their opponent at the start of the elimination rounds. Why can't that work?


my argument, two of them. one conditional. teams like to see the schedule beforehand. " if we finish here, we get these teams. " let's go watch these two teams on our bye, we'll likely face the winner/loser of this game." so on and so forth.

the other. sometimes there's just not enough time to get all that done between rounds if the schedule is such that there is pool play or crossovers remaining sunday morning.

it's not a terrible idea. you should try it at the next tournament you run.
Re: working the system [message #119291 is a reply to message #119286] Tue, 07 August 2012 09:33 Go to previous message
mtamada
Messages: 32
Registered: August 2011
Member
thefan wrote on Tue, 07 August 2012 08:41
Quote:
I still haven't really heard a legitimate argument for allowing the top seed(s) to pick their opponent at the start of the elimination rounds. Why can't that work?


my argument, two of them. one conditional. teams like to see the schedule beforehand. " if we finish here, we get these teams. " let's go watch these two teams on our bye, we'll likely face the winner/loser of this game." so on and so forth.

the other. sometimes there's just not enough time to get all that done between rounds if the schedule is such that there is pool play or crossovers remaining sunday morning.

it's not a terrible idea. you should try it at the next tournament you run.



The second argument could indeed be a problem; might even have to impose time limits on teams choosing their opponent (rather than letting them hem and haw and investigate rosters and cogitate for 10 minutes). Probably the TD should assign a default opponent (the lowest ranked of the remaining teams e.g.) and tell the team they've got 90 seconds to choose their opponent, or else they get the default opponent.

The first argument will not be a problem IMO. It is true that teams like to have some notion of their opponents in advance. But even better would be being able to choose who your opponent is: now it's something under your control, instead of being due to the fluke of scheduling. And teams still know who's in the pool of surviving teams, so they do have some idea of who they'll be up against.
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