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Rules question [message #115286] Thu, 03 May 2012 13:11 Go to next message
jeremy.mcnamara
Messages: 519
Registered: November 2008
Location: Albany
Senior Member
Situation: Disc went out of bounds on the left side of the field. Handler brings it back in and the mark puts on a backhand force with no bias towards straight-up (the mark is directly on the side of the handler). A cutter goes into the end zone and the handler winds up to huck. As the handler is in process of the throw, the mark leans over a lot to try and block the throw and there is a bone crushing collision between the forearm of the handler and the bridge of the nose of the mark. (FYI, bone crushing is not a euphemism; the bridge of the nose required a plastic surgeon to repair and the forearm required surgery to remove fragments of nose bone). After the players recovered their senses the handler called a foul and the mark did not contest. Is this the correct outcome?
Re: Rules question [message #115289 is a reply to message #115286] Thu, 03 May 2012 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JThib
Messages: 49
Registered: February 2009
Member
Assuming that the disc hadn't yet left the thrower's hand then yes, that is the correct outcome.


On a sidenote: I would expect better rules knowledge out of someone who has been a candidate for the USAU BoD. This was a fairly easy rules question.
Re: Rules question [message #115290 is a reply to message #115286] Thu, 03 May 2012 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Quote:
the forearm required surgery to remove fragments of nose bone
is the best single phrase I've seen on RSD in quite some time.

Sounds like the correct outcome would be an injury timeout.

But really, I've always understood that any contact on the mark is generally a foul on the marker unless he is completely stationary. So if the marker was actively sticking his nose into the radius of the radius (that's clever wordplay right there), the foul is on him. Hope he had health insurance.
Re: Rules question [message #115292 is a reply to message #115289] Thu, 03 May 2012 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donovd
Messages: 241
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
JMac, wasn't this during last summer league and the guy had to go to the hospital? maybe you should relax a bit and also why are you arguing about this now?

Also for someone to go from a backhand mark to into the path of the disc with their head is a pretty big move. unless they came all the way across your body and down to waist height with their head I kind of doubt the disc was still in your hand.
Re: Rules question [message #115293 is a reply to message #115290] Thu, 03 May 2012 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeremy.mcnamara
Messages: 519
Registered: November 2008
Location: Albany
Senior Member
My real question is, at what point during the throw and subsequent follow through does it become a foul on the thrower. I suppose there exists some point in a huge follow through at which the foul is on the thrower regardless of what the mark is doing but I don't know where the transference of foul occurs.

JThib: I completely agree that BoD candidates should be unwilling to ask for others to help clarify regardless of their inherent knowledge.
Re: Rules question [message #115295 is a reply to message #115286] Thu, 03 May 2012 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Marput
Messages: 992
Registered: June 2010
Location: Columbia Missouri
Senior Member
So this was an actual scenario which jeremy mcnamera was involved in?

and he's bringing it up on the forum?

uh...really?

Peter Mc
MDSC
Re: Rules question [message #115298 is a reply to message #115293] Thu, 03 May 2012 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ryan Thompson
Messages: 364
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
If the marker is not in the thrower's disc space, it depends on who
initiates contact. Both parties have a responsibility to respect disc
space and avoid contact. The rules state that any contact from the
marker's extended arms and legs is a foul on the marker - but face is
not included in this clause. If both the face and the arm are vying
for the unoccupied space at the same time, foul on the marker.

If the marker is in the thrower's disc space, all contact is a foul on
the marker (until the thrower is no longer the thrower, in which case
there is no more disc space). Followthrough fouls would a) be a foul
on the thrower and b) have no affect on the play besides stopping play
and allowing the injured parties to decide whether or not to call
injury also. The result of the huck would stand, with a stall count of
0 if caught or the disc on the ground if incomplete.

From the USA Ultimate website:

First of all, contact between a thrower and a marker who is illegally
positioned (for example, a marker who is not giving the thrower disc
space) is generally a foul on the marker (XVI.H.3.a.3). This
supercedes anything written below, which only applies to legally
positioned markers.

When the marker is set up in a legal marking position, contact between
a thrower and a marker is treated differently depending on whether the
contact is with the marker’s extended arms and legs (meaning,
outstretched arms or raised legs), or with the rest of the marker’s
body (or planted legs). Let’s look at each of these cases
individually.

When a thrower comes in contact with the marker’s extended arms or
legs, it is considered a foul on the marker unless the marker’s
extended arms or legs were completely stationary (something that
occurs only very rarely; XVI.H.3.a.2).

When a thrower comes in contact with the marker’s body (excluding
extended arms and legs), the relevant issue is who initiated the
contact, and the foul is on the person that initiated the contact
(XVI.H.3.a.4). This rule clarifies that it is an offensive foul for
the thrower to try to “draw the foul” by plowing into the marker’s
body. If both players are vying for the same spot simultaneously,
though, it’s considered a foul on the marker (XVI.H.3.a.3).
Re: Rules question [message #115304 is a reply to message #115286] Thu, 03 May 2012 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reggie Fanelli
Messages: 1958
Registered: September 2011
Senior Member
equired surgery to remove
> fragments of nose bone).  After the players recovered their
> senses the handler called a foul and the mark did not
> contest.  Is this the correct outcome?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--if the marker doesn't contest......the outcome is the called foul.
disc at the thrower, stall zero.
Re: Rules question [message #115305 is a reply to message #115293] Thu, 03 May 2012 14:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JThib
Messages: 49
Registered: February 2009
Member
Quote:
My real question is, at what point during the throw and subsequent follow through does it become a foul on the thrower. I suppose there exists some point in a huge follow through at which the foul is on the thrower regardless of what the mark is doing but I don't know where the transference of foul occurs.


This is a different question than in your original post. If the contact happens on the follow through the circumstances are different, and it would no longer be considered a throwing foul on the mark (aka the thrower won't necessarily get the disc back on a turnover). But depending on who initiated contact and the relative positions/movement of each player it could still be a general foul on either player.

Quote:
JThib: I completely agree that BoD candidates should be unwilling to ask for others to help clarify regardless of their inherent knowledge.


Just trying to give some constructive advice to your potential future candidacy. The question in your OP was incredibly simple and answerable with very basic rules knowledge. Your follow up question is a bit more dicey of a situation and less commonly known, but I would still expect most of my BoD members to be the ones posting answers to rules questions as opposed to the questions themselves. One of the reasons I voted for Colin McIntyre in a past election is my respect for his grasp of the rules (among many other admirable qualities).

Learning whats important to your constituents is good campaign practice.
Re: Rules question [message #115307 is a reply to message #115293] Thu, 03 May 2012 14:41 Go to previous message
pacemaker
Messages: 85
Registered: April 2011
Member
Follow-through answer:

On the follow-through -- it really does not matter who the "foul" is on. It did not affect the throw or the ability of the marker to stop the throw.

A foul will be called while the disc is in the air and the result of the play will not change. There will be a likely be a stoppage and (in this case) an injury time out.
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