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AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108489] Wed, 21 December 2011 09:38 Go to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Despite the criticism and questionable planning, the AUDL has continued to push forward with their efforts. They've gained a little attention and even an apparent commitment from Brodie Smith (quite a coup for them) and have some plans firmly in place. Good for them, I say, and good for the sport if it takes off.

However, aside from all of the other critiques, questions, and hopes, the question of revenue is still hanging out there (I have not seen it discussed to any extent, anyway). If this is billed as a "professional" league, where is the money going to come from? How will it be profitable?

Does anyone want to venture any ideas as to how this can make money? How many butts can be expected to fill seats at AUDL games?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108490 is a reply to message #108489] Wed, 21 December 2011 09:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
There have been Facebook posts stating that TV options are being discussed, and "Like this post if you would like to see the AUDL on TV!!!" but come on...the USAU gets the best college Ultimate teams in the country on TV, by paying tens of thousands of dollars out of their own pockets. If the AUDL can manage to sell TV rights, they are amazing salesmen and should probably take over USAU's negotiations.

Josh Moore's first "business proposal" suggested beaucoup profits if games got as little as 2000 paying fans per game, but there is no precedent for this EVER happening, is there? I thought I read somewhere that some of the NexGen games got upwards of 500 fans, and that is a very large crowd for an Ultimate game, but those were for one-time barnstorming events.

The AUDL championship game is slated for the Silverdome in Detroit! The Marketing guy in the Skyd interview mentioned that the Silverdome held 90,000 people for Wrestlemania in the early 80s, and seemed to suggest that that was somehow relevant to AUDL projections (maybe Hulk Hogan and the late Andre the Giant will be joining Brodie on the field?). Does anyone know what 500 fans (or hell, even 5000!) will look like in the Silverdome? It will look like an empty stadium.

Josh Moore managed to sell franchises to a few owners who were not familiar with Ultiamte, so I guess Josh will be getting paid. But, unless I am missing something important, or these guys are extraordinarily brilliant businessmen (despite being car salesmen and recording artists), I predict that the owners are going to take huge losses out of this, even if they don't pay the players anything (which is what the Skyd interview suggested for at least the first year).

I see some good things behind the AUDL's initiatives, but who has some realistic optimism to share regarding the "professionalism" and financial aspects?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108499 is a reply to message #108489] Wed, 21 December 2011 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 21, 12:40 pm, Baer <collin.b...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Despite the criticism and questionable planning, the AUDL
> has continued to push forward with their efforts. They've
> gained a little attention and even an apparent commitment
> from Brodie Smith (quite a coup for them)

which team is he "commited" to???? this is news to me.
----------------------------------------


>
> However, aside from all of the other critiques, questions,
> and hopes, the question of revenue is still hanging out
> there (I have not seen it discussed to any extent, anyway).
> If this is billed as a "professional" league, where is the
> money going to come from?

ticket and popcorn sales i presume.
----------------------------------------------



>How will it be profitable?

their gonna have to sell a lot of popcorn......and in order to do that
they'll have to get a lot of asses in the seats first...........of
which, i just dont see it happening
---------------------------------------------


>
> Does anyone want to venture any ideas as to how this can
> make money?

it cant
-----------------------


How many butts can be expected to fill seats at
> AUDL games?

20 to 30 if they are lucky. and i'm basin that on how many people
would likley attend a similar game if it were here in my home town. i
might go watch one game, and i'm a fan, but it would have to be the
top guys in the sport if they wanted me back out there regularly.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108501 is a reply to message #108490] Wed, 21 December 2011 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 21, 12:50 pm, Baer <collin.b...@yahoo.com> wrote:.

> There have been Facebook posts stating that TV options are
> being discussed, and "Like this post if you would like to
> see the AUDL on TV!!!" but come on...the USAU gets the best
> college Ultimate teams in the country on TV, by paying tens
> of thousands of dollars out of their own pockets. If the
> AUDL can manage to sell TV rights, they are amazing salesmen
> and should probably take over USAU's negotiations.

amoungst other things
-----------------------------------
>
> Josh Moore's first "business proposal" suggested beaucoup
> profits if games got as little as 2000 paying fans per game,



2000????? i doubt it. 200 would be a major draw. we'll see come
apri 14, eh?
----------------------------------------------------
> but there is no precedent for this EVER happening, is there?
> I thought I read somewhere that some of the NexGen games got
> upwards of 500 fans, and that is a very large crowd for an
> Ultimate game, but those were for one-time barnstorming
> events.

AND FREE!!!!
----------------------------------------------
>
> The AUDL championship game is slated for the Silverdome in
> Detroit! The Marketing guy in the Skyd interview mentioned
> that the Silverdome held 90,000 people for Wrestlemania in
> the early 80s, and seemed to suggest that that was somehow
> relevant to AUDL projections (maybe Hulk Hogan and the late
> Andre the Giant will be joining Brodie on the field?). Does
> anyone know what 500 fans (or hell, even 5000!) will look
> like in the Silverdome? It will look like an empty stadium.

WORD. they should have reserved a small football/soccer stadium so
that even with small attendance #'s it looks packed.
------------------------------------------
>
> Josh Moore managed to sell franchises to a few owners who
> were not familiar with Ultiamte,

suckaaaaaas
---------------------------------


so I guess Josh will be
> getting paid.

my guess is he loses his ass
------------------------------



But, unless I am missing something important,
> or these guys are extraordinarily brilliant businessmen
> (despite being car salesmen and recording artists), I
> predict that the owners are going to take huge losses out of
> this, even if they don't pay the players anything (which is
> what the Skyd interview suggested for at least the first
> year).

they ar playin for free the first year???? good luck gettin any
ringer to play
----------------------------------------------------
>
> I see some good things behind the AUDL's initiatives, but
> who has some realistic optimism to share regarding the
> "professionalism" and financial aspects?

that chriss aussie seems to be the only one with ANYTHING all that
positive to say.........aside from me about the refs part......thats
pure brilliance
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108502 is a reply to message #108499] Wed, 21 December 2011 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pizzapinochle
Messages: 488
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
From reading and listening to stuff, sounds like AUDL plans to run some youth oriented stuff in conjunction with their games. As past growth sports have indicated, this is a solid plan for success, although I am pessimistic (but really hoping I am wrong!) that it will be a sufficient push to create enough interest for priftability.

But, here is how the youth marketing thing works.

Get youth interested in ultimate by teaching a clinic or something on Saturday morning. Have the teams participate and lead the clinc. At the clinic, pass out half-price on youth admission coupons for the games on Saturday night.

Kids are not as demanding as adults in terms of entertainment value. They want to watch because THEY are interested. If they enjoy the clinic, they will want to come to the game.

For every kid that comes, you are going to get 1 or more parent/friend/sibling/etc. tagging along. So, 300 kids = 600-1000 seats filled.

Added benefit: Now kids are interested in playing ultimate, building ultimate in that community, making it a more viable place for AUDL.

I am not sure that this is the strategy the AUDL is planning on using, but if it isn't, it should be! This is basically why the MLS survived where 10 other previous pro-soccer leagues with more star power in the US failed. It was founded in conjunction with a major youth soccer movement (and the World Cup in the US helped a lot). Unfortunately, soccer was WAYYYYYYYY bigger at the time (definitely 10X, probably more) than Ultimate is now, so there was a much larger grass roots support in place. BUT, MLS was also a MUCH bigger venture than AUDL is trying to be, so the support needed for success is a lot lower.

HOPEFULLY this is at least one of the things AUDL is doing. There are other strategies, but not too many that will be more effective long term. They have talked about the youth emphasis and clinics, so it is a possibility.

Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108509 is a reply to message #108489] Wed, 21 December 2011 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
homrbush
Messages: 429
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
pizza, you must not have kids; believe me kids are VERY picky about what entertainment they watch. They will, very quickly, announce their boredom, and whine to leave Smile

Not only is the Silverdome host to the championship game though, it is also home to the Detroit Mechanix for the entire season. On top of that, the Silverdome is an hour from the big Ultimate league in Michigan (Ann Arbor).

They (the Mechanix) were out at pickup yesterday, and (this is second-hand information) they were condescending to the female players at pickup, and handed out frisbees (not disc, frisbees. The kind you give your dog water with) with their logo on it. Discraft is in Michigan! If you want to get people to come support you, give them actual discs!

Well, tryouts are in a couple weeks, and it will be interesting to see how many MagnUM and Burning Couch players tryout, since many of them go home for the summer.

As an aside, other than John Korber, has anyone heard of the coaches of the teams? I follow Ultimate about as close as one can without actually playing elite Ultimate, and I've never heard of any of them.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108510 is a reply to message #108509] Wed, 21 December 2011 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pizzapinochle
Messages: 488
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
homrbush wrote on Wed, 21 December 2011 21:47
pizza, you must not have kids; believe me kids are VERY picky about what entertainment they watch. They will, very quickly, announce their boredom, and whine to leave Smile



Ha ha....true!

Clarification: When I was a kid growing up, I played soccer. I wanted to watch soccer too. I didn't care if it was the local college team or MLS. I idolized the goalkeeper for the local college as much, or more, than I idolized Tony Meola. I wanted to watch because it was what I did.

I didn't play baseball. I had no interest in watching baseball, I still don't like watching baseball. You could put the greatest players in the world on a baseball diamond and it still wouldn't connect with me like soccer.

Point is: If kids want to watch ultimate, they are going to watch. They won't make a strong distinction between elite and sub-elite. Not saying elite isn't better, but in an 8 year olds eyes, they are all the best. In that way, a youth targeted movement is less dependent on having great players than trying to target current ultimate players who will get bored (or never show up) if they are watching and realize that they level of play they are seeing is at or below the level they routinely play at themselves.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108515 is a reply to message #108489] Wed, 21 December 2011 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cncventure
Messages: 74
Registered: November 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member
Nice questions Baer - and critically important questions as well.

Unfortunately the answers to a lot of them will remain relatively unknown until mid 2012, and even then I think the viability of the league may take a couple of years to determine.

Quote:
If this is billed as a "professional" league, where is the money going to come from? How will it be profitable?
I assume the AUDL will generate its revenue the same way most professional teams raise revenue - ticket sales, TV rights, merchandise, concession sales, sponsorship - being the main ones.

Obviously in the 2012 season the focus will mostly be on ticket sales, ie getting bums in seats. Concession and merchandise sales will come as a result of this.

Sponsorship might provide a little bit of cash flow in 2012, and it looks like some teams have already get a few sponsors onboard, but unless the games are broadcasted and/or you have lots of fans in the crowd there is only so much revenue that can be raised via sponsorship.

My understanding is that the AUDL has already engaged in trying to sell the TV rights, but of course the networks are putting on the AUDL to show that they have a product that will have appeal and an audience. I'd be doubtful as to if they could get a deal done for the 2012 season. If 2012 is a success, ie they draw decent sized crowds to games, that would go a long way to helping sell the TV rights in 2013.

This has actually been one of the reasons why I have been encouraging so many people to get on facebook and like the league and the teams, because it makes selling the sport to TV networks, sponsors, potential expansion team owners etc so much easier when you can say "hey look there are X,XXX amount of people who think this a good idea, so it's not a complete pipedream".

Business people can at least buy into that... and if there is one thing that this venture will need to succeed more than anything it's lots of people buying into the idea.


Quote:
Does anyone want to venture any ideas as to how this can make money? How many butts can be expected to fill seats at AUDL games?
I have done the maths before, and I reckon most teams won't get into the black until they start getting crowds of 500+.

Is this possible, yeah, is it probable, I not so sure.

Of course projecting crowd numbers is quite hard. I know I have often turned to metrics like facebook likes (because they are publicly available and from my comparisons across various professional sports tend to give at least some correlation).

I recently looked into facebook likes and crowd attendance for the Major League Lacrosse teams.

The average MLL team has 3900 likes on facebook and the average crowd for MLL games are 6400.

The average AUDL team has 180 likes.

I'd think they'd want that average to be somewhere closer to 500 - 1000 come April 2012 to give themselves a good chance of at least a couple hundred showing up for that first game.

I also recently looked into participation rates of Lacrosse and Ultimate and college and from the stats that I could find it appears that as of 2009 Ultimate was more commonly played in college than lacrosse (if you compare the NCAA and USUA stats) and ultimates growth rate is much higher.

So whilst that doesn't necessarily mean anything for the AUDL 2012 season, I think definitely bodes well for the future potential of a professional ultimate league. I feel like if this had of been launched sometime between 2015 - 2020 you could be VERY confident of the potential of the league. Launching in 2012 - it'll come down to team owner's ability to market and sell the sport to make it viable.

So whilst it's hard to be confident that they will get crowds, there is at least reason to be hopeful.

Smile

Quote:
There have been Facebook posts stating that TV options are being discussed, and "Like this post if you would like to see the AUDL on TV!!!" but come on...the USAU gets the best college Ultimate teams in the country on TV, by paying tens of thousands of dollars out of their own pockets. If the AUDL can manage to sell TV rights, they are amazing salesmen and should probably take over USAU's negotiations.
A little bit of salesmanship and hustle can go a long way!

They definitely aren't qualities that will keep a business viable over time, but they definitely get things moving.

Quote:
Josh Moore's first "business proposal" suggested beaucoup profits if games got as little as 2000 paying fans per game, but there is no precedent for this EVER happening, is there?
If your players play for free then yeah getting 2000+ to turn up each game will make tidy profits for the team owners, but it will definitely be up to the team owners to find and sell the sport to their local markets.


Quote:
I thought I read somewhere that some of the NexGen games got upwards of 500 fans, and that is a very large crowd for an Ultimate game, but those were for one-time barnstorming events.
I dunno - I think there is something to be said for consistency, especially when you are dealing with the non-ultimate market. There are a lot of people that look at going to sporting games as something they do on weekends and they like getting into a routine.

It will actually be really interesting to know how many season tickets sell versuses rely on people to rock up on the day.

Quote:
Does anyone know what 500 fans (or hell, even 5000!) will look like in the Silverdome? It will look like an empty stadium.
Yeah I'm not sure that was well thought out. That said, I like the ambition.

Quote:
Josh Moore managed to sell franchises to a few owners who were not familiar with Ultiamte, so I guess Josh will be getting paid.
I'm pretty sure the franchises for the first year were sold very cheap just to get owners on board. So I'm pretty sure Josh won't make any money (let alone pay for his time unless the AUDL makes it into its 2nd if not 3rd year).

Even now with 13 owners on board, the first season secured, the franchises are still being sold at a price that I can't help but feel will have the AUDL running at a steep loss.

That said, if the first AUDL season is even half successful I imagine he shouldn't have too much trouble selling the remaining franchises for a price that is actually profitable.

Quote:
I predict that the owners are going to take huge losses out of this, even if they don't pay the players anything (which is what the Skyd interview suggested for at least the first year).
Yeah the owners are definitely carrying the most risk. That said, the fact they don't need to pay players helps limit the downside risk.

I will be surprised if all 8 of the 2012 owners come back for a second year (but that's the nature of running a professional sports team - they are businesses - not a license to print money). On the other hand some of the teams look pretty organised and already I'd be willing to bet they'll make their teams a success and will be back for a second year.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108518 is a reply to message #108515] Thu, 22 December 2011 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alex Peters
Messages: 287
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
cncventure wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 01:17
So I'm pretty sure Josh won't make any money (let alone pay for his time unless the AUDL makes it into its 2nd if not 3rd year).



What are his expenses? The $50 website? Seems like the owners are covering everything.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108519 is a reply to message #108502] Thu, 22 December 2011 02:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
pizzapinochle wrote on Wed, 21 December 2011 16:25

But, here is how the youth marketing thing works.

Get youth interested in ultimate by teaching a clinic or something on Saturday morning. Have the teams participate and lead the clinc. At the clinic, pass out half-price on youth admission coupons for the games on Saturday night.

Kids are not as demanding as adults in terms of entertainment value. They want to watch because THEY are interested. If they enjoy the clinic, they will want to come to the game.

For every kid that comes, you are going to get 1 or more parent/friend/sibling/etc. tagging along. So, 300 kids = 600-1000 seats filled.

Added benefit: Now kids are interested in playing ultimate, building ultimate in that community, making it a more viable place for AUDL.

I am not sure that this is the strategy the AUDL is planning on using, but if it isn't, it should be! This is basically why the MLS survived where 10 other previous pro-soccer leagues with more star power in the US failed. It was founded in conjunction with a major youth soccer movement (and the World Cup in the US helped a lot). Unfortunately, soccer was WAYYYYYYYY bigger at the time (definitely 10X, probably more) than Ultimate is now, so there was a much larger grass roots support in place. BUT, MLS was also a MUCH bigger venture than AUDL is trying to be, so the support needed for success is a lot lower.

HOPEFULLY this is at least one of the things AUDL is doing. There are other strategies, but not too many that will be more effective long term. They have talked about the youth emphasis and clinics, so it is a possibility.



Good post, Pizza. That sounds like a great strategy; I'd love to see something like that.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108520 is a reply to message #108515] Thu, 22 December 2011 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
cncventure wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 00:17
Nice questions Baer - and critically important questions as well.

Unfortunately the answers to a lot of them will remain relatively unknown until mid 2012, and even then I think the viability of the league may take a couple of years to determine.


Quote:
Yeah the owners are definitely carrying the most risk. That said, the fact they don't need to pay players helps limit the downside risk.

I will be surprised if all 8 of the 2012 owners come back for a second year (but that's the nature of running a professional sports team - they are businesses - not a license to print money). On the other hand some of the teams look pretty organised and already I'd be willing to bet they'll make their teams a success and will be back for a second year.


A couple of things that concern me based on these thoughts: After the first season or two passes with no profits, what incentive do these owners, or Josh Moore himself, have to stick around and see it through? They are not involved in this venture for love of the game, they are just looking to make a buck. I say that they are not in it for love of the game by virtue of the fact that none of them had any involvement or workable knowledge of the sport before getting in on this. They are not fans, why do we think they even care about the welfare of the sport? (although if they are successful and it helps the sport and community, all of that will be forgiven, but until then, that is the source of much of the criticism).

Having said that, since one of their thoughts from the very beginning was that it will be unnecessary to actually pay the players (in a "professional" league) since players traditionally have paid their own way, (They will simply be grateful to have an opportunity to play with fewer expenses! While an owner who is disinterested in the sport profits!) the concept seems condescending to Ultimate players who have put their heart and soul into the sport for so long. These guys come along with no actual passion for the sport dangling a carrot of professional ultimate in front of young players with the idea to exploit them for their own profits. Again, if it is successful and benefits the community, none of that will matter, but the criticism and skepticism is valid until then.

Quote:
If this is billed as a "professional" league, where is the money going to come from? How will it be profitable?
I assume the AUDL will generate its revenue the same way most professional teams raise revenue - ticket sales, TV rights, merchandise, concession sales, sponsorship - being the main ones.

Obviously in the 2012 season the focus will mostly be on ticket sales, ie getting bums in seats. Concession and merchandise sales will come as a result of this.

Sponsorship might provide a little bit of cash flow in 2012, and it looks like some teams have already get a few sponsors onboard, but unless the games are broadcasted and/or you have lots of fans in the crowd there is only so much revenue that can be raised via sponsorship.

My understanding is that the AUDL has already engaged in trying to sell the TV rights, but of course the networks are putting on the AUDL to show that they have a product that will have appeal and an audience. I'd be doubtful as to if they could get a deal done for the 2012 season. If 2012 is a success, ie they draw decent sized crowds to games, that would go a long way to helping sell the TV rights in 2013.[/quote]
But the question is, HOW is that going to happen. What will make all of this actually viable?


Quote:
Does anyone want to venture any ideas as to how this can make money? How many butts can be expected to fill seats at AUDL games?
I have done the maths before, and I reckon most teams won't get into the black until they start getting crowds of 500+.[/quote]

Does that take into account travel expenses, salaries for coaches, refs, and stadium workers? Equipment costs? Field/facility rental? Insurance? Advertising? The cost of the supposed youth clinics some of the teams are talking about?

Quote:
Of course projecting crowd numbers is quite hard. I know I have often turned to metrics like facebook likes (because they are publicly available and from my comparisons across various professional sports tend to give at least some correlation).

I recently looked into facebook likes and crowd attendance for the Major League Lacrosse teams.

The average MLL team has 3900 likes on facebook and the average crowd for MLL games are 6400.

The average AUDL team has 180 likes.

I'd think they'd want that average to be somewhere closer to 500 - 1000 come April 2012 to give themselves a good chance of at least a couple hundred showing up for that first game.

Chris, your attitude is great man, but every time you mention Facebook likes (which is in every single post), I want to huck a disc at your balls (but I wouldn't really do that, that would be poor spirit).

What makes you think Facebook likes translates to attendance? These comparisons are absurd.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108521 is a reply to message #108520] Thu, 22 December 2011 03:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baer
Messages: 387
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
^
quote function fail

and Chris, I was only joking about the disc-at-the-balls. But the constant references to Facebook liking, and your gung-ho street-team efforts from thousands of miles away, are odd.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108522 is a reply to message #108521] Thu, 22 December 2011 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
homrbush
Messages: 429
Registered: October 2008
Senior Member
Yeah, because 1000 facebook likes are enough to convince a television network that they should broadcast Ultimate. 1000 "likes" for a television network is laughable, even on the smallest, most niche network out there.

The kids angle is great; yes kids (and by kids, I don't mean youth U-19 players, I mean actually elementary school kids) could help drive attendance. How many elementary school kids play organized, structured Ultimate? And where do they live? And how many of those markets have AUDL teams in them?

Why am I confident that the answer to the last question is zero?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108523 is a reply to message #108502] Thu, 22 December 2011 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 21, 5:30 pm, pizzapinochle <pizzapinoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From reading and listening to stuff, sounds like AUDL plans
> to run some youth oriented stuff in conjunction with their
> games. As past growth sports have indicated, this is a solid
> plan for success, although I am pessimistic (but really
> hoping I am wrong!) that it will be a sufficient push to
> create enough interest for priftability.
>
> But, here is how the youth marketing thing works.
>
> Get youth interested in ultimate by teaching a clinic or
> something on Saturday morning. Have the teams participate
> and lead the clinc. At the clinic, pass out half-price on
> youth admission coupons for the games on Saturday night.
>
> Kids are not as demanding as adults in terms of
> entertainment value. They want to watch because THEY are
> interested. If they enjoy the clinic, they will want to come
> to the game.
>
> For every kid that comes, you are going to get 1 or more
> parent/friend/sibling/etc. tagging along. So, 300 kids =
> 600-1000 seats filled.
>
> Added benefit: Now kids are interested in playing ultimate,
> building ultimate in that community, making it a more viable
> place for AUDL.
>
> I am not sure that this is the strategy the AUDL is planning
> on using, but if it isn't, it should be! This is basically
> why the MLS survived where 10 other previous pro-soccer
> leagues with more star power in the US failed. It was
> founded in conjunction with a major youth soccer movement
> (and the World Cup in the US helped a lot). Unfortunately,
> soccer was WAYYYYYYYY bigger at the time (definitely 10X,
> probably more) than Ultimate is now, so there was a much
> larger grass roots support in place. BUT, MLS was also a
> MUCH bigger venture than AUDL is trying to be, so the
> support needed for success is a lot lower.
>
> HOPEFULLY this is at least one of the things AUDL is doing.
> There are other strategies, but not too many that will be
> more effective long term. They have talked about the youth
> emphasis and clinics, so it is a possibility.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

i would go right to the schools if i were the audl........put on
assemblies and promote throwing contests (a la punt pass and kick/
pitch hit and run) and have the finals AT THE GAME during half time.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108524 is a reply to message #108510] Thu, 22 December 2011 05:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 21, 10:05 pm, pizzapinochle <pizzapinoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> homrbush wrote on Wed, 21 December 2011 21:47
>
> > pizza, you must not have kids; believe me kids are VERY
> > picky about what entertainment they watch.  They will,
> > very quickly, announce their boredom, and whine to leave
> > :)
>
> Ha ha....true!
>
> Clarification: When I was a kid growing up, I played soccer.
> I wanted to watch soccer too. I didn't care if it was the
> local college team or MLS. I idolized the goalkeeper for the
> local college as much, or more, than I idolized Tony Meola.
> I wanted to watch because it was what I did.
>
> I didn't play baseball. I had no interest in watching
> baseball, I still don't like watching baseball. You could
> put the greatest players in the world on a baseball diamond
> and it still wouldn't connect with me like soccer.
>
> Point is: If kids want to watch ultimate, they are going to
> watch. They won't make a strong distinction between elite
> and sub-elite. Not saying elite isn't better, but in an 8
> year olds eyes, they are all the best. In that way, a youth
> targeted movement is less dependent on having great players
> than trying to target current ultimate players who will get
> bored (or never show up) if they are watching and realize
> that they level of play they are seeing is at or below the
> level they routinely play at themselves.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com

question pizza: did they have little league soccer (not to mention a
middle school, high school and college teams) for you and others to
participate in?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108525 is a reply to message #108522] Thu, 22 December 2011 05:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 22, 7:05 am, homrbush <homrb...@homerbush.net> wrote:
>
> .  How many elementary school
> kids play organized, structured Ultimate?

ZERO
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108532 is a reply to message #108499] Thu, 22 December 2011 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EuhNGroups
Messages: 1020
Registered: August 2011
Senior Member
ulticritic wrote on Wed, 21 December 2011 14:05
but it would have to be the
top guys in the sport if they wanted me back out there regularly.



thank god they'Re signing nonames
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108538 is a reply to message #108524] Thu, 22 December 2011 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pizzapinochle
Messages: 488
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
ulticritic wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 08:48

question pizza: did they have little league soccer (not to mention a middle school, high school and college teams) for you and others to participate in?


Nope. Not a thing until we got there and made it.

As far as soccer was concerned, in my hometown, before I started playing there was the local college team and that was it. A big chunk of the players were internationals and none were locals, most came from out of state.

When I was a kid, a few parents (most importantly the asst. coach of the college team) decided they wanted soccer for their kids. They started a kids (probably 6-9 year olds) mini-soccer league that they ran. My brother and I were in the first group of kids to ever play soccer in my home town. There was not, that I know of, any options for older players at the time.

As we got older, the program expanded with us. When we hit middle school, the formed a U13 team. When we hit high school, they formed a High School team. My brother (2 years older than me) played on the first High School team in the city and it sustained itself.

Basically, we started with as many little kids as we could. As we grew up, the numbers dropped, but we kept playing. The same kids who started as 6-9 year olds were playing on the Varsity high school team when it was formed.

Once the program was started at the youth level, it sustained itself. Young kids kept coming in and playing and growing through the program. But it was 100% a bottom up growth model starting with elementary kids.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108547 is a reply to message #108538] Thu, 22 December 2011 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 22, 12:50 pm, pizzapinochle <pizzapinoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ulticritic wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 08:48
>
> > question pizza:  did they have little league soccer (not
> > to mention a middle school, high school and college teams)
> > for you and others to participate in?
>
> Nope. Not a thing until we got there and made it.
>
> As far as soccer was concerned, in my hometown, before I
> started playing there was the local college team and that
> was it. A big chunk of the players were internationals and
> none were locals, most came from out of state.

what year (and state) was that?
---------------------------------------------
>
> When I was a kid, a few parents (most importantly the asst.
> coach of the college team) decided they wanted soccer for
> their kids. They started a kids (probably 6-9 year olds)
> mini-soccer league that they ran. My brother and I were in
> the first group of kids to ever play soccer in my home town.
> There was not, that I know of, any options for older players
> at the time.

well your still talking about a sport with a much deeper history than
ultimate AND a spor that had long shed its sotg, self reffing to save
the world, status and reputation........aside from the fact that
soccer is a much more condusive sport for 6 to 9 year olds to play.
---------------------------------------------
>
> As we got older, the program expanded with us. When we hit
> middle school, the formed a U13 team. When we hit high
> school, they formed a High School team. My brother (2 years
> older than me) played on the first High School team in the
> city and it sustained itself.

what year was this again?
-------------------------------------
>
> Basically, we started with as many little kids as we could.
> As we grew up, the numbers dropped, but we kept playing. The
> same kids who started as 6-9 year olds were playing on the
> Varsity high school team when it was formed.
>
> Once the program was started at the youth level, it
> sustained itself. Young kids kept coming in and playing and
> growing through the program. But it was 100% a bottom up
> growth model starting with elementary kids.

i thought you said it started with the college team......so isnt that
a top down approach. either way, and i have no idea what year(s) you
are talking about this metamorphis with soccer in you town but
ultimate, today, is no where near where soccer was even back in that
day. and anyway you slice it the audl would have been much better off
locating their inital franchises in areas where foundations for youth
ultimate have already been established.......which is my main and only
real critisism of the audl model
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108557 is a reply to message #108547] Thu, 22 December 2011 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pizzapinochle
Messages: 488
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
Years (not sure why this matters too much, but...): Late 80s, early 90s

Only connection from the college team was that the assistant coach helped start the youth league. This had nothing to do with the college program, had to do with the fact that his kids were old enough to play soccer and he wanted them to play soccer. Even today, the college team has little impact or influence on the local soccer.

As for Facebook:

I think cncventure is dead on about facebook "liking" being an important sign of support. I've done it. Later perhaps I'll explain why I think so.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108559 is a reply to message #108557] Thu, 22 December 2011 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 22, 7:25 pm, pizzapinochle <pizzapinoc...@gmail.com> wrote:.

> Years (not sure why this matters too much, but...): Late
> 80s, early 90s

damn, soccer was pretty damn big in most areas by then.......what town
was this again?
------------------------------------------
>
> Only connection from the college team was that the assistant
> coach helped start the youth league.

which makes it top down
-----------------------------------------


This had nothing to do
> with the college program,

you sure? i mean, didnt all the kids that picked up the sport
patronize the colleg games?
-----------------------------------------------------


had to do with the fact that his
> kids were old enough to play soccer and he wanted them to
> play soccer.

so he was killing two birds with one stone......good for him
----------------------------------------


Even today, the college team has little impact
> or influence on the local soccer.

ya mean like it did with you........or how you prokect these audl
teams will have little impact with their respective locals? thanks
for supporting my argument
--------------------------------------------
>
> As for Facebook:
>
> I think cncventure is dead on about facebook "liking" being
> an important sign of support.

i dont. like baer said, how do you figure simple click of a mouse
from the comfort of ones own home translates into repeat business?
especially when clicking a mouse dosent cost anything (extra anyways)
-----------------------------------------------



I've done it. Later perhaps
> I'll explain why I think so.

please do.......then explain it to us again after these games dont
have the attendance that reflects how many 'likes" they get on
facebook
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108564 is a reply to message #108559] Thu, 22 December 2011 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cncventure
Messages: 74
Registered: November 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member
Quote:
What are his expenses? The $50 website? Seems like the owners are covering everything.
Um his time... that's not free. When you run a business your time matters. He could be out there making money working a job, but he has opted to forgo that opportunity to create this one for ultimate.

Quote:
A couple of things that concern me based on these thoughts: After the first season or two passes with no profits, what incentive do these owners, or Josh Moore himself, have to stick around and see it through?
They won't. It's that simple. It's just business to them.

But that's not a bad thing. The "profit motive" will have them busting their ass to grow their teams/ the sport. If they still can't make a dollar after putting their money where their mouth is and busting their asses for a year or two, we as an ultimate community will know that the sport isn't ready to go pro yet, which isn't the end of the world.

As I have stated previously I'm pretty confident that by 2025 top players will be getting paid to play the sport. I'm not certain if the sport is ready for that right now - but if the AUDL wants to try I'm all for it.

Quote:
They are not fans, why do we think they even care about the welfare of the sport?
Because at the end of the day the players also have the AUDL by the balls.

"If" the AUDL works, the product that is being sold will not be "the AUDL" it will be "high level ultimate". Once the public has come to know "high level ultimate" they will follow the players more than they will follow a specific league.

So a good chunk of the power over the league will be in the players hands, and if the AUDL screws them over them can always go start a new league, or maybe the USAU starts a pro league, or someone else will try and start a league that offers the players a better deal.

Capitalism still works in sports.

Quote:
Having said that, since one of their thoughts from the very beginning was that it will be unnecessary to actually pay the players (in a "professional" league) since players traditionally have paid their own way, (They will simply be grateful to have an opportunity to play with fewer expenses! While an owner who is disinterested in the sport profits!) the concept seems condescending to Ultimate players who have put their heart and soul into the sport for so long.
Having spoken with a number of team owners, they aren't stupid, they know they need to compete for players so this will lead to paying getting paid once they are capable of doing so.

Basically if a team actually starts making profits in 2012 this will give team owners the a budget to actually start spending money on securing better players for the next season. You can't really blame the team owners for not wanting to pay players in 2012 because this league is a very unknown quantity, and even without paying players they will still be one of the biggest expenses given they need to pay for all their playing expenses, which we all know aren't cheap.

I have spoken with a number of team owners who have actually said they will be offering a profit share arrangement with players for the first season, so in the event that the league is a success the players will share in some of those profits.

I thought that was pretty good of em.



Quote:
Again, if it is successful and benefits the community, none of that will matter, but the criticism and skepticism is valid until then.
I don't disagree, I still have lots of criticism and doubts myself, but dooming something to failure because of deficits doesn't help anyone, including ourselves.

It's like saying because some rookie has a bad flick, they may as well stop playing. When in reality all they need to do is get out there play more and work at it over time.


Quote:
But the question is, HOW is that going to happen. What will make all of this actually viable?
The same way any business grows, with hard work, providing value and good marketing.

The "how" is going to be largely up to the unique styles of business of each team owner, some might try getting players into schools, running clinics and developing the youth market, some might just throw money at advertising campaigns promoting it as the new hip thing to do in their cities, but at the end of the day I suspect one or two of the teams will do a really good job in 2012, and they will hopefully share how they did it with the rest of the league and then everyone else can turn around in 2013 and do the same plus try some new things.

Quote:
Does that take into account travel expenses, salaries for coaches, refs, and stadium workers? Equipment costs? Field/facility rental? Insurance? Advertising? The cost of the supposed youth clinics some of the teams are talking about?
Yes.

Quote:
Chris, your attitude is great man, but every time you mention Facebook likes (which is in every single post), I want to huck a disc at your balls (but I wouldn't really do that, that would be poor spirit).

What makes you think Facebook likes translates to attendance? These comparisons are absurd.
Facebook likes definitely don't transfer into dollars themselves, what they are is a database of interest people for teams to distribute their messages. They are a vehicle to stay in touch with people that can help spread the word and who are keen to watch their teams.

Facebook is like a supercharged "word of mouth" marketing tool. When you "like" the league or teams you opt into their status updates. It helps the teams/league maintain your mindshare and helps keep us die hard frisbee fanatics up to date with all the latest happenings.

Also the league has nothing to sell right now, because the first games are months away, but if you are "interested" now they definitely want to be able to have a means to reengage with you in 5 months time when they do have something to sell "ie tickets to their games".

Not to mention that if people are kept in the loop about the AUDL or team developments people are far more likely to be excited with April 2012 comes around. Not to mention that everytime they post sometime interesting or exciting there is a good chance that you might go down to your local league or team training and tell your team mate "did you hear that XYZ is playing for ABC?" or "did you hear that Joe Blow bought the Seattle franchise" to which that person might go "what's this AUDL thing about? " at which point you will go "OMG, dude it's only the greatest things that has ever happened to ultimate" at which point you now have another intrigued and potential prospect.



Also despite what people think of Facebook likes, they are not easy to get and how many you have does offer outsiders a rough gauge of the interest in your product or business.

I guess what I'm trying to say is each click like on the AUDL or team pages is like a business lead and potential product evangelists as well as offers social proof to those who need it before wanting to engage more in the league. So the more the better.

And unfortunately, whether you want to throw discs at my nuts or not, the reality is after reading an update about the AUDL, 10 - 20 times more people are actually going to click "like" on facebook and spread the word to their friends if they are told that is something they can do right now to help the league. So I'm going to keep doing it...

Very Happy

And trust me I hate doing it as much as you hate reading it. In my mind everyone should be clambering to click that Facebook like button by themselves without prompting and telling all their friends about the league, but sometimes people need to have a little nudge and the idea suggested to them.


Quote:
But the constant references to Facebook liking, and your gung-ho street-team efforts from thousands of miles away, are odd.
Why is it odd?

I play elite level ultimate in Australia and I'd like to play in the most competitive league in the world if possible and being compensated for my efforts would help facilitate that. I think that is what most elite level players dream. I'm just trying to help make my dream a reality and hopefully other's dreams as well.

Quote:
Yeah, because 1000 facebook likes are enough to convince a television network that they should broadcast Ultimate. 1000 "likes" for a television network is laughable, even on the smallest, most niche network out there.
Agreed, but having 1000 people spreading the word to their friends about a new league, quickly turns into 1500, and that turns into 2500 and that turns into 5000 - and the next thing you know you are turning those small niche TV network heads.

It's about baby steps. The league needed to get 1000 likes before it can set its sights on 5000. Just the same way that it will need to focus on getting 100 people to rock up to their games before they can start trying to get 1000.

I wrote about this on another ultimate forum a couple of weeks ago, I said if the AUDL fell well short of getting 1000 likes by the end of the year, that chances of this league being a success fell to less than 10%.

Right now with 836 likes and a few days to go, whether the league gets 1000 likes or not is still touch and go, but right now I think a lot of people, including Josh and the team owners (and maybe even many top ultimate players) are probably starting to go "oh shit, we do have a bit of support out there, this might actually work..."

...and that's how great things start.

Quote:
i would go right to the schools if i were the audl........put on assemblies and promote throwing contests (a la punt pass and kick/pitch hit and run) and have the finals AT THE GAME during half time.
Nice idea - I hope the team owners are reading this.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108591 is a reply to message #108564] Fri, 23 December 2011 01:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donovd
Messages: 241
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
hey chris did you by any chance play at WCBU in italy this summer?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108601 is a reply to message #108564] Fri, 23 December 2011 07:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 22, 9:40 pm, Chris <cncpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Um his time... that's not free. When you run a business your
> time matters. He could be out there making money working a
> job, but he has opted to forgo that opportunity to create
> this one for ultimate.

the players time isnt free either......especially when they are being
asked to take long drives or relocate in order to play. thei si why
the major flaw in the league are the franchise
locations.......followed by the single game format
------------------------------------------------------------ -
>
> But that's not a bad thing. The "profit motive" will have
> them busting their ass to grow their teams/ the sport. If
> they still can't make a dollar after putting their money
> where their mouth is and busting their asses for a year or
> two, we as an ultimate community will know that the sport
> isn't ready to go pro yet, which isn't the end of the
> world.

or it could be that they just had an inferior plan/model. at the very
least reffed ulti will be exposed
-------------------------------------------------
>
> As I have stated previously I'm pretty confident that by
> 2025 top players will be getting paid to play the sport. I'm
> not certain if the sport is ready for that right now - but
> if the AUDL wants to try I'm all for it.

me too, i just wish they would have tried differently
---------------------------------------
>
> So a good chunk of the power over the league will be in the
> players hands, and if the AUDL screws them over them can
> always go start a new league, or maybe the USAU starts a pro
> league, or someone else will try and start a league that
> offers the players a better deal.

in that sense this is a great thing for the sport. its just too bad
they (audl) didnt consult me
-----------------------------------
>
> Capitalism still works in sports.

IF that sport can actually capitalize
------------------------------------------
>
> Having spoken with a number of team owners, they aren't
> stupid,

you sure? havent they all invested in somthing they know very little
about?
---------------------------------------------


they know they need to compete for players so this
> will lead to paying getting paid once they are capable of
> doing so.

but if they REALLY knew this wouldnt they have situated their teams in
places where the best players already are. i mean, will anybody be
that surprised when they see the philli and boston teams slaughtering
all those other no name franchises.......and whose gonna want to go
watch ANY SPORT where the comp is that lopsided?
--------------------------------------------------
>
> Basically if a team actually starts making profits in 2012
> this will give team owners the a budget to actually start
> spending money on securing better players for the next
> season. You can't really blame the team owners for not
> wanting to pay players in 2012 because this league is a very
> unknown quantity,

which mean you cant blame top level players for not participating
------------------------------------------------


and even without paying players they will
> still be one of the biggest expenses given they need to pay
> for all their playing expenses, which we all know aren't
> cheap.

especially when paying them is reliant on asses in the seats.
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Quote:> Again, if it is successful and benefits the community,
> > none of that will matter, but the criticism and skepticism
> > is valid until then.
>
> I don't disagree, I still have lots of criticism and doubts
> myself, but dooming something to failure because of deficits
> doesn't help anyone, including ourselves.

sure it does......it helps these green ass administrator take there
heads outa there asses and say "maybe there is a better plan thats
less risky and had more potential for success" and "why dont we
consult people on the inside.....maybe even someone that tried this
already".
------------------------------------------------------------ ---
>
> It's like saying because some rookie has a bad flick, they
> may as well stop playing. When in reality all they need to
> do is get out there play more and work at it over time.

whose saying the audl should stop playing.......i ,personally, am just
telling them to change their straegy......much in the same way i tell/
show that rookie the proper way of throwing a flick
---------------------------------------------
>
> The same way any business grows, with hard work, providing
> value and good marketing.

dont downplay the idea of having a solid plan or location, location,
location
------------------------------------------------------
>
> The "how" is going to be largely up to the unique styles of
> business of each team owner, some might try getting players
> into schools, running clinics and developing the youth
> market, some might just throw money at advertising campaigns
> promoting it as the new hip thing to do in their cities, but
> at the end of the day I suspect one or two of the teams will
> do a really good job in 2012,

yea, boston and philli.......places where there are already strong
elite teams and ultimate sceens
----------------------------------------------------



and they will hopefully share
> how they did it with the rest of the league and then
> everyone else can turn around in 2013 and do the same plus
> try some new things.

like relocating?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108621 is a reply to message #108591] Fri, 23 December 2011 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cncventure
Messages: 74
Registered: November 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member
donovd wrote on Fri, 23 December 2011 01:58
hey chris did you by any chance play at WCBU in italy this summer?
Yes I did. Why do you ask?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108634 is a reply to message #108621] Fri, 23 December 2011 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donovd
Messages: 241
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
Oh I asked this back when I was looking you up but then I figured it out.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108637 is a reply to message #108621] Fri, 23 December 2011 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bobus
Messages: 305
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
cncventure wrote on Fri, 23 December 2011 17:43
donovd wrote on Fri, 23 December 2011 01:58
hey chris did you by any chance play at WCBU in italy this summer?
Yes I did. Why do you ask?


How about that Philippine team eh?
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108656 is a reply to message #108559] Sun, 25 December 2011 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pizzapinochle
Messages: 488
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
ulticritic wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 20:09
O
> Only connection from the college team was that the assistant
> coach helped start the youth league.

which makes it top down
-----------------------------------------


This had nothing to do
> with the college program,

you sure? i mean, didnt all the kids that picked up the sport
patronize the colleg games?
-----------------------------------------------------


No, they did not. I was there, but I was connected to the university (father taught there), so I went to all the sporting events. It was a bottom up build.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108666 is a reply to message #108509] Mon, 26 December 2011 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DetMechanix
Messages: 11
Registered: December 2011
Location: Michigan
Junior Member
homrbush wrote on Wed, 21 December 2011 18:47
pizza, you must not have kids; believe me kids are VERY picky about what entertainment they watch. They will, very quickly, announce their boredom, and whine to leave Smile

Not only is the Silverdome host to the championship game though, it is also home to the Detroit Mechanix for the entire season. On top of that, the Silverdome is an hour from the big Ultimate league in Michigan (Ann Arbor).

They (the Mechanix) were out at pickup yesterday, and (this is second-hand information) they were condescending to the female players at pickup, and handed out frisbees (not disc, frisbees. The kind you give your dog water with) with their logo on it. Discraft is in Michigan! If you want to get people to come support you, give them actual discs!

Well, tryouts are in a couple weeks, and it will be interesting to see how many MagnUM and Burning Couch players tryout, since many of them go home for the summer.

As an aside, other than John Korber, has anyone heard of the coaches of the teams? I follow Ultimate about as close as one can without actually playing elite Ultimate, and I've never heard of any of them.


Greetings homrbush and those who are reading this response. I represent the Detroit Mechanix, and yes, we do indeed read these forums, and many more as well, (more like a full time job actually to keep up with majority of them), which proves that the sport is alive and well. This is good for us all!

Normally we choose not to respond to naysayers and the like, however in this instance since "second hand information" is the basis of public perception, we need to provide information that is indeed lacking. For starters, the Mechanix asked if we could attend a drop in game. The organizers wanted us to talk for a few about the AUDL and Detroit as there are MANY misconceptions of what the actual game plan is, and what we are setting out to accomplish. So we obliged them, delivering the information we could, simply asking that those interested contact us, those not interested and/or opposed to us trying to place this sport in the public eye we sincerely asked that they would allow others to investigate and make up their own minds. Now on to the parts of the "second-hand" report that are in error:

First off, on behalf of the league we apologized that we did not have a place for the ladies as of yet. We admire the skills and abilities of all athletes, and although the statistics say that this sport is primarily male influenced/controlled, elite female talent is on the rise and deserves recognition. How this was construed as condescending I am not sure, and have asked a few of the participants if something was even slightly positioned in that manner. This, combined with the Facebook Ads that day of multiple ladies who attended, speaks to say that your information is incorrect. If indeed, at any time for any reason, the message that we do not value to talent and contributions that ladies bring to the table was ever displayed, we sincerely apologize. Please offer your "source" access to this apology, and let them know that the owner stands ready to correct it personally if they feel it warranted. Each and every player/fan/coach/alumni is valued as we move towards the goal of making ultimate something common instead of lurking in the "shadows" of sports that could be popular. We trust that will assist in your understanding of the dialogue of that day.

On to the "giveaways". Criticizing the "frisbee freebies"? Wow, did you ever stop to think that a full disc may be better positioned as a "gameday giveaway" instead of an informal meet and greet item? Just out of curiosity when is the last time anyone showed at an informal ultimate gathering bearing gifts for you? I know not everyone realizes this, yet there is a system to the marketing scheme used for Detroit. Before you critique it, how about asking what it is? Not here, in an open forum, but rather email, Skype, or if you are in Detroit stop by our office. Why not an open forum, you ask? Because if you really want the info, really care about what we are doing, then show the resolve to contact us directly, to learn from the source, to ask any question as the (literally) dozens of meetings and lunches and info sessions that we have hosted for everyone 's understanding and benefit. We are not here to simply "feed the animals" who ask us to "enlist their help" while simultaneously shredding us on message boards like these. Instead we focus on what matters. People and organizations who take the time to get involved. The community awareness meetings, school programs, mascot programs...yes, there is a business plan. You want to learn more about it, take the time, info@detmechanix[/email] and mention this post and the owner will contact you personally. He has offered to give everyone in ultimate a 10 minute communication, more if the conversation is fruitful. When is the last time the owner of a sports team offered that?

We leave you with this one thought....there are many dreams and "good" ideas in this world that never turn into a goal, a plan, or an outcome. We asked that you understand that this may not be your exact vision of ultimate. That doesn't make it "evil" or "wrong". Spend a few minutes getting to know what it is that we seek to do, how we are addressing the issues that lie ahead for the sport. And, respectfully, if you "don't have the time" to talk to us, don't try to guess or surmise what our approach is/will be, fair enough?

We will try to respond here when we can, yet it is so much more helpful if you email us directly with your concerns, questions, criticisms, and feedback. We appreciate that not all will see what we are doing as positive or the "right" way. We simply believe that the time is now to work together to move the sport forward. You may not, and that is ok as well. Smile

In Ultimate,

The Mechanix
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108669 is a reply to message #108666] Mon, 26 December 2011 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeremy.mcnamara
Messages: 519
Registered: November 2008
Location: Albany
Senior Member
DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
For starters, the Mechanix asked if we could attend a drop in game.

It's called a pickup game, not a drop in game. Learn the language of the sport you plan on representing. Homrbush even gave you the right nomenclature to use and you fucked it up.

DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
This, combined with the Facebook Ads that day of multiple ladies who attended, speaks to say that your information is incorrect.

What the fuck does this even mean?

DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
Wow, did you ever stop to think that a full disc may be better positioned as a "gameday giveaway" instead of an informal meet and greet item?

Did you ever stop to think that giving an ultimate player any disc other than a discraft is fucking stupid and a waste of time and money? I'm starting to think you don't actually understand the ultimate culture...

DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
In Ultimate,

The Mechanix

I don't understand this signature.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108671 is a reply to message #108669] Mon, 26 December 2011 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DetMechanix
Messages: 11
Registered: December 2011
Location: Michigan
Junior Member
jeremy.mcnamara wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 08:09
DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
For starters, the Mechanix asked if we could attend a drop in game.

It's called a pickup game, not a drop in game. Learn the language of the sport you plan on representing. Homrbush even gave you the right nomenclature to use and you fucked it up.

DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
This, combined with the Facebook Ads that day of multiple ladies who attended, speaks to say that your information is incorrect.

What the fuck does this even mean?

DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
Wow, did you ever stop to think that a full disc may be better positioned as a "gameday giveaway" instead of an informal meet and greet item?

Did you ever stop to think that giving an ultimate player any disc other than a discraft is fucking stupid and a waste of time and money? I'm starting to think you don't actually understand the ultimate culture...

DetMechanix wrote on Mon, 26 December 2011 09:38
In Ultimate,

The Mechanix

I don't understand this signature.


Apologies. "Pick-up" game.

To clarify, ladies in attendance liked/added the Mechanix after we were present.

Promos are promos, they were not to offend. To be given or kept, as many have asked us for these as presents for their kids, friends, etc. We are seeking to understand everything we can from as many as we can, even amidst some hammering and negative reinforcement. It would seem that there are many views of ultimate, not just one or two.

As the post stated, contact us if you feel this strongly for OR against. We want to here from you on how to improve.

Sincerely,

The Mechanix
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108672 is a reply to message #108666] Mon, 26 December 2011 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ulticritic
Messages: 8204
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On Dec 26, 10:45 am, DetMechanix <profi...@detmechanix.com> wrote:
> Normally we choose not to respond to naysayers and the like,

yea, thats the easy way out........but dont forget, even negitive
publicity is publicity.....or good publicity......or whatever that
saying is. as for me personally, i want the audl to succeed and it
why i'm so critical a vocal of it.......just like i want usau to be
better. its kinda lika a coach that rides a player constantly. i
mean, if that coach didnt feel like there was potential in that player
improving he/she wouldnt even bother, right. now one might say 'i
dont see you critisizing the uoa ever". not true. i've offered then
many critisisms, many of which theyve responded to......which is why i
general praise them (lie i should).
----------------------------------------------
>
> First off, on behalf of the league we apologized that we did
> not have a place for the ladies as of yet.  We admire the
> skills and abilities of all athletes, and although the
> statistics say that this sport is primarily male
> influenced/controlled, elite female talent is on the rise
> and deserves recognition.  How this was construed as
> condescending I am not sure, and have asked a few of the
> participants if something was even slightly positioned in
> that manner.  This, combined with the Facebook Ads that day
> of multiple ladies who attended, speaks to say that your
> information is incorrect.  If indeed, at any time for any
> reason, the message that we do not value to talent and
> contributions that ladies bring to the table was ever
> displayed, we sincerely apologize.  Please offer your
> "source" access to this apology, and let them know that the
> owner stands ready to correct it personally if they feel it
> warranted.  Each and every player/fan/coach/alumni is valued
> as we move towards the goal of making ultimate something
> common instead of lurking in the "shadows" of sports that
> could be popular.  We trust that will assist in your
> understanding of the dialogue of that day.

yea, you know, its too bad one cant just be straight forward and
honest when to comes to womens sports. i mean, just take a look at
espns sports center and tell me how often they feature womens sports.
its 1% at best. i, as a sports fan, dont like watching womens sports
in the least, they bore me. they bore (or just dont entertain) most
people and this is why you rarely see them featured on tv. just do a
quick comparison and contrast of the interest that is generated by the
nba in comparison to the wnba. in fact, just yesterday while watch
sports nation, michelle beadle (who is a woman.....and a pretty darn
hot one at that ((which is why she's in front of the cammera)) ) did a
spoof feature of womans motorcross (i believe it was an x-games event)
and stated that this feature "put womens motor cross back 50 years".
it was actually pretty funny because the women were wrecking right and
left, right out of the gate at that. she added that she wasnt even
sure if any of em even were able to finish the event (fyi, it was a
course where they had to ride over rocks and logs and what
not.......very comical stuff).
---------------------------------------------------
>
> On to the "giveaways".  Criticizing the "frisbee freebies"?

are you talking about little useless fastbacks that are primarily used
for advertising......that dont even have flight rings????? that dont
fly worth a shit??? if so, then YES, they should be critisized as
they are a joke. now THATS what i would find condesending. i mean,
just this one act says how little these audl people know about this
sport and its base of participants.
----------------------------------------------
> Wow, did you ever stop to think that a full disc may be
> better positioned as a "gameday giveaway" instead of an
> informal meet and greet item?

nope......its actually the opposite. give good discs that can
actually be used to the base of people that you want to "post likes on
facebook", "spread the word about this new league to friends", etc etc
and give those useless crappy advertisement gimmick discs out at your
games to your clueless phantom fans.......kinda like how cheerleaders
throw those little miniture toy footballs into the stands at hs
football games. wise up!
----------------------------------------------------------


 Just out of curiosity when is
> the last time anyone showed at an informal ultimate
> gathering bearing gifts for you?

a useless advertisement disc is hardly a gift
------------------------------------

 I know not everyone
> realizes this, yet there is a system to the marketing scheme
> used for Detroit.  Before you critique it, how about asking
> what it is?

why, when it was obviously patronistic. what you need to do is get to
know the sport you are featuring a little better and those that play
it regularly before you contend how they/we should respond to your
marketing schemes. like i said, just this one act says that you
havent done your homework so well.
------------------------------------------------


 Not here, in an open forum, but rather email,
> Skype, or if you are in Detroit stop by our office.  Why not
> an open forum, you ask?

damn straight. wouldnt that be much more effecient......and isnt that
why you are here now?
--------------------------------


 Because if you really want the
> info, really care about what we are doing, then show the
> resolve to contact us directly,

whats the difference. why do you think people hold press conferences
as opposed to requiring every reporter to privatly contact someone?
and, isnt it the fact that you need us (and our input, support AND
critisisms) more than we need you?
--------------------------------------------------


to learn from the source, to
> ask any question as the (literally) dozens of meetings and
> lunches and info sessions that we have hosted for everyone
> 's understanding and benefit. We are not here to simply
> "feed the animals" who ask us to "enlist their help" while
> simultaneously shredding us on message boards like these.

who's asking you to inlist your help......i thought it was you guys
asking us to inlist our help (face book likes, spreading the word,
bringing our unaware friend to your games????)
------------------------------------------



> Instead we focus on what matters.  People and organizations
> who take the time to get involved.

i thought this whole endevor was a business effort in which the
ultimate goal was to make a buck?
----------------------------------------------


 The community awareness
> meetings, school programs, mascot programs...yes, there is a
> business plan.

which is to make a buck, right? i mean, isnt that the ultimate goal
of any smart business plan?
--------------------------------------


 You want to learn more about it, take the
> time, mailto:info@detmechanix[/email] and mention this post
> and the owner will contact you personally.

why, when we/you have this midian right here at our/your disposal. i
mean, i watch the news so i DONT HAVE TO go ask every tom, dick and
harry whats up with this, that or the other.......get it?
------------------------------------------------



 He has offered
> to give everyone in ultimate a 10 minute communication, more
> if the conversation is fruitful.  When is the last time the
> owner of a sports team offered that?

every time they hold a press conference????? which coaches and
players do after every game they play usually
-----------------------------------------------------
>
> We leave you with this one thought....there are many dreams
> and "good" ideas in this world that never turn into a goal,
> a plan, or an outcome.  We asked that you understand that
> this may not be your exact vision of ultimate.

and we ask that you understand that this is why whe shred you on this
median
------------------------------------------------------------ ----


 That doesn't
> make it "evil" or "wrong".

it dosent make it not evil or wrong either
---------------------------------------------


 Spend a few minutes getting to
> know what it is that we seek to do,

but youve already made that brutally obvious......its to appeal to the
general public primarily and profit from them, right? isnt that (one
reason)why you didnt place your franchises in places where ultimate
hubs and elite teams/players already exist? which WILL be the result
of yout downfall imo. youll see this when you compare the attendance
at boston and phili games as oppose to those other random non ultimate
locations
----------------------------------------



how we are addressing
> the issues that lie ahead for the sport.  And, respectfully,
> if you "don't have the time" to talk to us, don't try to
> guess or surmise what our approach is/will be, fair enough?

who's guessing as its pretty obvious to those of us in the know. dont
get me wrong, i'm all for a pro type ultimate league. i've actually
tried to start a couple of my own (wer you guys aware of this/me?)
AND, while recently running for usau bod, i wrote up a plan on how
this could be achieved.......but my plan was set up such that usau
spearheaded it and the whole ultimate community had a stake in its
success (philisophically and monitarily). yours dosent. now obviusly
you guys are the ones puttin up the jack, and thus will reap the
spoils (if there are any). but, understand, this is where the
disconnect originates. the ultimate community "is (to use a sienfeld
reference) like a squirell that ya have to carefully sneak up
on" (elaine talking about her saxaphone boyfriend that wouldnt do
"everything").
-----------------------------------------------
>
> We will try to respond here when we can,

which, i'll adamit, youve been pretty darn good about. much better
than usau has ever been.......which is why we shred them here too
--------------------------------------

yet it is so much
> more helpful if you email us directly with your concerns,
> questions, criticisms, and feedback.

bzzzt wrong. not for us anyways.
---------------------------------


 We appreciate that not
> all will see what we are doing as positive or the "right"
> way.  We simply believe that the time is now to work
> together to move the sport forward.

see now, this is where the ownership plan you have falls flat on its
face. why would or should WE work for the sake of your league and
your bottom line. like i said, i want you to succed but dont expect
me to work or volunteer for you when i'm not being givin any stake.
maybe you should have taken another year to do the proper reasearch,
refine your plan, involve the community(s) more, and even set up
ownership so that it was more like the greenbay packers model in which
the entire town of greenbay has a stake in the success......and can
share in the monitary gain. just think how much more support youde
get from a boston franchise if BUDA (and the likes) was a partial
owner?
--------------------------------------



 You may not, and that
> is ok as well. :)

but if we dont you are essentially screwed, right? so who knows,
maybe youve jumped the gun, maybe your just one of hundereds of sports
leagues that is doomed to fail, maybe you will go back to the drawing
board, learn from your mistakes and refine your plan so that it better
fits the reality of where ultimate is at presently. then again, maybe
you WILL succeed. no one has a crystal ball. it will be intersting
to watch and see what happens though.

i will say this though, i applaud that you guys were smart enough to
create a reffed version of the game.......so at the very least, as a
pro reff person, i am excited and greatful that reffed ultimate will
finally be exposed and "let out of the cage". so, imo, at least you
got one thing right with your plan.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108723 is a reply to message #108637] Wed, 28 December 2011 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cncventure
Messages: 74
Registered: November 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member
Bobus wrote on Fri, 23 December 2011 19:57
cncventure wrote on Fri, 23 December 2011 17:43
donovd wrote on Fri, 23 December 2011 01:58
hey chris did you by any chance play at WCBU in italy this summer?
Yes I did. Why do you ask?


How about that Philippine team eh?
Sorry about the late reply.

Yeah they are the business!

I tell you what, if I was an AUDL franchise owner looking for a couple of stud players that could run all day, bid big, and get blocks there would be a couple dudes on that team that I'd be calling.

I remember at the 2007 Beach Worlds they only had like 8 or 9 dudes for the entire tournament and they still managed to make the final!

Such a spirited and happy bunch of guys as well - it's so easy to like them.
Re: AUDL revenue and attendance? [message #108727 is a reply to message #108723] Wed, 28 December 2011 18:19 Go to previous message
bslade86
Messages: 357
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Pizza: lots of good points, I think the AUDL (or any other semipro startups) would do well to incorporate some of your ideas.

Jeremy: Freebies are freebies. I have a plush football the size of my fist with a Clemson paw (and the sponsoring bank's logo) that I got for free. I was not upset that they gave me a non-regulation sized football, nor is it a 'total waste of time and money.' It is what it is.

If someone gave me a flimsy disc with a team logo on it, it would end up in my box of tournament discs, or use it as a marker disc, or whatever else you want to do with a little freebie. If the Spinners/Mechanix/whoever make it big, then I was there first.
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